Pinning rend, pinning knock out Questions about Grappling feats

[Lobolusk]

DO pinning Rend and Pinning Knock out stack?

My new character has about every grappling related feat possible. When I make a grapple and deal damage do I deal both? or choose which one?

Stunning pin: says I can a swift action to make a stunning fist attack. I this different then a normal Stunning fist attempt? that can only be made once a round?

and Jaw breaker and Bone breaker do they stack? can I apply both condidtions? to my attack while grappling?

[Rathyr]

1. I'd say no.

Pinning Rend deals bleed damage equal to your unarmed DICE.

Pinning Knockout deals double your damage RESULT in nonlethal damage. Your actual unarmed dice hasn't increased.

2. Stunning Pin doesn't make a whole lot of sense. First of all, its a joke that you have to use a swift action, when the original doesn't require an action at all. Second of all, a stunning first "attempt" is declared before you make an unarmed strike, which makes ZERO sense when used AFTER a pin. You can... infer... that what you should be doing is treating it as if you had just hit with an unarmed strike, but yes, it would be treated like an regular stunning fist attempt in that you cant do it multiple times.

Honestly though, you can only use that attempt when you PIN an opponent. There's no point to applying pin more than once. If you have extra grapple attempts after pinning, its better to pin them once, than either tie them up or damage them.

3. No. Both require you to choose to give up the stunning fist effect. You can't give up the regular stunning fist effect twice.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Pinning KO/Pinning Rend:

PINNING KNOCKOUT: While you have an opponent pinned, when you succeed at a grapple combat maneuver check to deal <b>an opponent nonlethal damage</b> using an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed weapon, double your damage result. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is immune to the effects of this feat.

PINNING REND: While you have an opponent pinned, when you succeed at a grapple combat maneuver check to deal an opponent damage using an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed weapon, that opponent also takes bleed damage equal to your unarmed strike or weapon damage dice. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is immune to the effects of this feat.

Pinning KO only triggers on nonlethal damage. Pinning Rend triggers on normal damage. While Bruno think you may get GM to allow Pinning KO's non-lethal damage to trigger Pinning Rend's lethal bleed damage, Bruno think you no have cake and eat it too.

Stunning Pin:

STUNNING FIST: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

STUNNING PIN: Whenever you pin an opponent, you can spend a swift action to make a Stunning Fist attempt against that opponent.

Stunning Fist normally part of your standard (or full round) attack action. When Bruno grappling, Bruno gain grappled condition which no allow standard attacks. Stunning Pin lets Bruno slip in Stunning Fist during grappling. Very handy in stupid, irritating casters with low Fort saves.

Jawbreaker & Bonebreaker:

JAWBREAKER: When you make a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent that is grappled, helpless, or stunned, instead of imparting any other Stunning Fist effect, you can cripple that opponent’s mouth, dealing normal unarmed strike damage and 1d4 points of bleed damage. Until the bleed damage ends, the target is unable to use its mouth to attack, speak clearly, and employ verbal spell components. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible mouth is immune to the effects of this feat.

BONEBREAKER: When you make a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent that is grappled, helpless, or stunned, you can forgo any other Stunning Fist effect to deal 1d6 Strength or Dexterity damage to that opponent.

These no stack. When you land your Stunning Fist, you have to choose which effect you would want on stupid monster.

Bruno now grapples your attention to fact Stunning Fist for Jawbreaker or Bonebreaker not need to be on stupid monster you are personally grappling--you can Stunning Fist into Jawbreaker/Bonebreaker any creature that has grappled, helpless or stunned condition.

Bruno head hurt from all the words.

[Lobolusk]

So wait I cant apply stunning fist to my attack during a grapple with out stunning pin?

what exact action is it to do an stunning fist during a grapple.

[Rathyr]

You could. For example, if you had Greater Grapple, you could maintain as a move action, and use your standard to make an Unarmed Strike.

Otherwise, yes, you need stunning pin, as you wont have the required actions to make an attack AND hold a grapple. Which is why Tetori get it at level 2.

[Lobolusk]

I have rapid grappler so I should be good right?

[Rathyr]

Rapid Grappler lets you make another Grapple check after maintaining as a move action (from greater grapple).

In theory, you could do this.

Move action -> Maintain Grapple
Swift Action -> Maintain Grapple
No Action -> Stunning Fist
Standard Action -> Unarmed Strike

Note that you cannot use Stunning Pin and Swift Grappler in the same turn (both use swift actions).

[Kord_Avatar]

I'm also making a Tetori character, but i'm confused by the previous answer:

Move action -> Maintain Grapple
Swift Action -> Maintain Grapple
No Action -> Stunning Fist (?)
Standard Action -> Unarmed Strike

Why Stunning Fist would consume no actions? It was my impression that it was a swift action as a part of the Stunning Pin feat. Unless the Standard Action came first, make an unarmed attack and declare it a Stunning Fist.

Correct me if i'm mistaken, regards.

[Lobolusk]

After playing my new grapple character here is the skinny I assume you succeed at your grapple check each time.

Stunning fist inst an action but it must be declared in conjunction with an attack roll.

so standard action INITIATE the grapple

move action MAINTAIN the Grapple, choose to pin,move ,or damage

swift action Grapple check again then Pin, Move or damage

round 2

Move action Maintain the grapple ,then pin, move or Damage
Standard choose to Pin, move or damage
Swift action grapple check again because you used your Move action and then PIN, MOVE or DAMAGE.

any time you choose to roll unarmed damage you can make a stunning fist but

[Rathyr]

Kord_Avatar wrote:

I'm also making a Tetori character, but i'm confused by the previous answer:

Move action -> Maintain Grapple
Swift Action -> Maintain Grapple
No Action -> Stunning Fist (?)
Standard Action -> Unarmed Strike

Why Stunning Fist would consume no actions? It was my impression that it was a swift action as a part of the Stunning Pin feat. Unless the Standard Action came first, make an unarmed attack and declare it a Stunning Fist.

Correct me if i'm mistaken, regards.

In that example, you are not using Stunning Pin, you are using vanilla Stunning Fist (on an Unarmed Attack that follows). I put Stunning Fist before the Standard Action attack because you have to declare it before you make the attack. Sorry for the confusion.

Stunning Pin is a bad feat, and it should feel bad. It can be argued that you can use Stunning Fist *any* time you make an CMB roll (attack roll) to grapple and do damage, instead of wasting precious swift action economy.

[solitary_solidarity]

Going back to Pinning Rend, if your unarmed damage is 1d6, would you deal 1d6 of bleed damage? Or have i misunderstood the feat?