Does a Gravewalker Witch's Bonethrall have a limited Duration?

[Cador_2004]

A GM of mine argued to me that because the ability says that it is as though the Witch had used Command Undead, that the ability also has Command Undead's duration. Is this the case, or are mindless undead controlled permanently until disposed of by the Witch's own volition/killed?

[Tyeus]

I had the same question come up quite recently, Since the description was not clear in defining a duration my GM went with how long command undead lasts since the description under bonethrall says as if the witch used command undead. So it would be great to hear a bit more clarity. Do mindless undead become permanently controlled meanwhile intelligent are too except they get there save every day? Or is it that all thralls last the 1day per level like command undead?

thanks :) It would be a great help to get that figured out!

[Marc Radle]

It might be worthwhile if someone could post where the gravewalker witch comes from. I assume this is an archetype?

[Shar Tahl]

It has a duration just as if the spell was used, with the witch level being used for caster level. It is not a permanent effect. The added benefit above and beyond the spell, is that you can use this as much as you want until you hit your max hit dice limit, where as the spell is limited to how many times you have it prepared.

This is very different from the Undead Lord cleric archetype that gains a undead companion

PRD via Ultimate Magic wrote:

Bonethrall (Su): At first level, a gravewalker can take control of an undead creature within her aura of desecration by forcing her will upon it (Will negates, using her hex DC). If it fails the save, the creature falls under her control as if she had used command undead (once control is established, the undead remain controlled even if outside the witch's aura). Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist her command. The witch can control up to 1 HD of undead creatures per caster level. If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, the witch must make an opposed Charisma check whenever her orders conflict with that creature's. This replaces the witch's hex gained at 4th level.

[Sean K Reynolds]

If it wasn't supposed to have command undead's duration, it would have given a different duration. That's the point of saying "it works like X" ... you use all the info from X. :)

[hogarth]

The dumb thing, of course, is that there is a spell called Command Undead and a feat called Command Undead, so saying something works like Command Undead is particularly unhelpful. :-)

[Adamantine Dragon]

hogarth wrote:

The dumb thing, of course, is that there is a spell called Command Undead and a feat called Command Undead, so saying something works like Command Undead is particularly unhelpful. :-)

Heh, yeah, I ran into this exact issue with my last BBEG for the last encounter I ran. I went with the same duration as the spell.

[Shar Tahl]

The clarity comes from the PRD having a link to the spell in the ability description.

[Sean K Reynolds]

hogarth wrote:

The dumb thing, of course, is that there is a spell called Command Undead and a feat called Command Undead

Don't get me started on how annoying I think that is...

hogarth wrote:

so saying something works like Command Undead is particularly unhelpful. :-)

Actually, we italicize but don't capitalize spells, and we capitalize but don't italicize feats, so if you see

Command Undead

you know it's referring to the feat, and if you see

command undead

you know it's referring to the spell, and if you see

Command Undead

someone has really screwed up. :)

And FYI, the bonethrall ability says "as if she had used command undead" in the book, PDF, and PRD, so it's quite clear it's referring to the spell and not the feat. :)

[Drejk]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

*Proper formatting*

Superstar is coming. Time to start betting how many submissions will get negative reception due to blatant and repeated disregard to formatting rules this year.

[Chemlak]

Drejk wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

*Proper formatting*

Superstar is coming. Time to start betting how many submissions will get negative reception due to blatant and repeated disregard to formatting rules this year.

you know, I'm now tempted to put in a submission with as many formatting errors as I can think of, on purpose, just to lighten Sean's day.

[Drejk]

Chemlak wrote:

Drejk wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

*Proper formatting*

Superstar is coming. Time to start betting how many submissions will get negative reception due to blatant and repeated disregard to formatting rules this year.

you know, I'm now tempted to put in a submission with as many formatting errors as I can think of, on purpose, just to lighten Sean's day.

By lighten Sean's you mean provoking him to set your submission on fire, right?

[Sean K Reynolds]

Drejk wrote:

By lighten Sean's you mean provoking him to set you on fire, right?

Fixed that for you.

[Jim Groves]

For the love of pete, set the sunder is a standard action thread on fire. Set it on fire twice!

[Drejk]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Drejk wrote:

By lighten Sean's you mean provoking him to set you on fire, right?

Fixed that for you.

I wanted to write that initially, but didn't want to make suggestions to you.

[johnlocke90]

Shar Tahl wrote:

The clarity comes from the PRD having a link to the spell in the ability description.

\

PRD sometimes gives the wrong link. I have seen links to the spell bleed when they were talking about regular bleed damage.

[Chemlak]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Drejk wrote:

By lighten Sean's you mean provoking him to set you on fire, right?

Fixed that for you.

well I'm not sure that a Chem bonfire is all that good to see with...

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle, crafter must be Sean K Reynolds; Cost 28,825 gp plus one airline ticket across the Atlantic Ocean.

Damn, that was hard to write on an iPad

[blackbloodtroll]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Drejk wrote:

By lighten Sean's you mean provoking him to set you on fire, right?

Fixed that for you.

I welcome being set on fire, if you are willing to set us all straight on how sunder works.

I am likely to burn in the afterlife, so I might as well get used to it.

[Cador_2004]

I still have a few doubts about that, since after taking a look at the Command Undead feat as an alternative it says it works as though it had used the control undead spell, which only has a duration of a few minutes. Despite that, it says that intelligent undead get a new save for it every day. That implies that the feat controls the undead for longer than the scant time that control undead has.

Paizo wrote:

As a standard action, you can use one of your uses of channel negative energy to enslave undead within 30 feet. Undead receive a Will save to negate the effect. The DC for this Will save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Undead that fail their saves fall under your control, obeying your commands to the best of their ability, as if under the effects of control undead. Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist your command.

[theillway]

If the Bonethrall ability's duration is per the command undead spell, but theCommand Undead feat (that every other Necromancer and undead-controlling class has) has an indefinite duration, why does the Gravewalker archetype say that: "Unlike the creations of standard necromancers, a gravewalker's creations remain forever tied to her will..."?

By my read, a duration of 1 day per level is less than an indefinite duration. Am I missing something? Doesn't this mean that the Bonethrall ability is way less powerful than the Command Undead feat, because you can only affect one undead at a time, it only lasts 1 day per level, and you only have the rough control or influence listed in command undead rather than the complete control that Command Undead gives you (as per the control undead spell)?

[Weenog]

what theillway said. the flavour text mentioned "a gravewalker's creations remain forever tied to her will..."

along with "Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist your command." i'd rule mindless undead were intended to be controlled indefinitely, but only one at a time like the spell command undead. mindless undead don't get a save at all anyway right?

[Rynjin]

Flavor text is not rules.

Going that path leads to nothing but bad.

[Weenog]

Rynjin wrote:

Flavor text is not rules.

Going that path leads to nothing but bad.

well i don't see why not

you can use the effect infinite times per day. the duration is 1 day/level.
and command undead sais: "A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell."

you could spend a round casting the spell every day if your realy paranoid.

[blackbloodtroll]

Why is this Necro'd?

[Weenog]

Cuz we're necromancers