As a lot of people keep fighting over the whole "attack action is a standard action" thing and I get tired by the time I get to the 4th page of a 10 page argument I will just start this thread. Based on the current interpretations by the developers, errata, etc. What type of things can you perform an Vital Strike attack with? AoO? Whirlwind attack? Cleave? etc. Or can you just make ONE simple weapon attack on your turn?
A vital strike is a standard action and it can not be combined with anything that has its own actions. That is why it does not work with Spring Attack.
Hey there everybody,
Let me see if I can clean this up a bit.
Cleave is a standard action, which means you can use it anytime you can take a standard action. It cannot be used as part of a full-attack action, which is a full round action. You cannot use Cleave as part of a charge, since that is a special full-round action (partial charge not withstanding). The same applies to Great Cleave.
Vital Strike can be used in place of an attack action. This means that whenever you take an attack action, you can use Vital Strike instead. An attack action is a type of standard action. While this is nearly identical to Cleave, there are a few subtle differences. Anything that applies to an attack action would apply to a Vital Strike attack, whereas it would not, necessarily, apply to Cleave. The two feats cannot be used in conjunction.
I am not sure that answers all the questions here.. but I will check back later to see if there is anything I have missed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
A vital strike is a standard action and it can not be combined with anything that has its own actions. That is why it does not work with Spring Attack.
Hey there everybody,
Let me see if I can clean this up a bit.
Cleave is a standard action, which means you can use it anytime you can take a standard action. It cannot be used as part of a full-attack action, which is a full round action. You cannot use Cleave as part of a charge, since that is a special full-round action (partial charge not withstanding). The same applies to Great Cleave.
Vital Strike can be used in place of an attack action. This means that whenever you take an attack action, you can use Vital Strike instead. An attack action is a type of standard action. While this is nearly identical to Cleave, there are a few subtle differences. Anything that applies to an attack action would apply to a Vital Strike attack, whereas it would not, necessarily, apply to Cleave. The two feats cannot be used in conjunction.
I am not sure that answers all the questions here.. but I will check back later to see if there is anything I have missed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If I remember that thread (its the spring attack + vital strike thread) correctly Jason then went on to correct himself. And then people continued fighting. And then my head hurt and I gave up.
I am asking for what Vital Strike CAN BE combined with. Not what it can not be combined with. Although that argument will probably start after a while anyways but here is hoping we can operate under a polite KISS theory for this thread.
He also never backtracked on spring attack since it uses its own action.
It can be combined with power attack, and any other ability that does not have its own action. It can also be combined with deadly aim. I don't have every ability in the game memorized so I use the following check list.
KISS version:Any ability that uses a standard action can not be combined with another ability that uses a standard or full round action.
1.Does ability A use a standard action?
2.Does ability B use a standard or full attack action?
If both of these equal yes then they can't be used in the same round.
only the attack action, or something that explicitly indicates compatabilty (which doesn't exist AFAIK)
spring attack itself had issues at one point, which they errata'd to make clear that it doesn't work with VS.
go to d20pfsrd.org
in the FAQ section, look up VItal Strike, it lists quotes of Jason Buhlman and JJ (?) on the subject,
I believe with links to the original posts here on the boards.
That's all there is to it.
So in other words in only works with a standard weapon attack on your turn? Since it specifically is a standard action you can not perform it as part of an AoO then or pretty much anything else...that's lame.
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Yar.
A Single Melee Attack that is an Attack Action/Vital Strike.
A Single Ranged Attack that is an Attack Action/Vital Strike.
A Move Action + Single Attack (aka: Standard Action to attack using the "Attack Action").
Readying a Standard Action to attack using the Attack Action/Vital Strike.
Fighting Defensively.
Shield Bash.
(feat) Power Attack.
(feat) Combat Expertise.
(feat) Furious Focus.
(feat) Sorcerous Strike.
(feat) Shield Slam.
(feat) Perfect Strike.
(feat) Punishing kick.
(feat) Pushing Assault.
(feat) Razortusk.
(feat) Repositioning Strike.
(feat) Stunning Assault.
(feat) Sundering Strike.
(feat) Tripping Strike.
(feat) Enforcer.
(feat) Dreadful Carnage.
(feat) Disarming Strike.
(feat) Dazing Assault.
(feat) Crippling Critical.
(feat) Bull Rush Strike.
(feat) Bloody Assault.
(feat) Bashing Finish.
(feat) Deadly Aim.
There's probably more, this was just a quick search.
~P
So in other words in only works with a standard weapon attack on your turn? Since it specifically is a standard action you can not perform it as part of an AoO then or pretty much anything else...that's lame.
Correct.
right... there's plenty of feats/effects that apply TO any attack, and thus will apply to the attack action w/ vital strike. but you can't use vital strike with any other attack besides that 'granted' by the standard 'attack' action.
as mentioned, you can 'ready' attack actions, so those kind of happen off your turn in some sense.
i don't really ever take vital strike unless i have AT LEAST d8 weapon damage when medium, and usually more.
i don't really ever take more than the base VS feat... and often i don't take it at all.
it can definitely be useful though. try giving it to somebody with a huge damage attack.
Yar.
Pinpoint Targeting, I think.
As a standard action, ...
Nope. It (Pinpoint Targeting) requires a Standard Action, and Vital Strike is also a (not very clear) Standard Action as well, thus they cannot be used together in/with the same Standard Action.
~P
What type of things can you perform an Vital Strike attack with?
A single standard action attack.
Hint: Vital Strike sucks for the most part--you practically have to build your character around it for it to be worth doing. Or be a big monster.
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Yar.
Nope. It (Pinpoint Targeting) requires a Standard Action, and Vital Strike is also a (not very clear) Standard Action as well, thus they cannot be used together in/with the same Standard Action.
~P
I'm not certain that I agree. Here's the two feats for reference:
Pinpoint Targeting (Combat)You can target the weak points in your opponent's armor.
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Precise Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.
and
Vital Strike (Combat)You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action , you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Bold emphasis mine.
The way I read it is that Pinpoint Targeting is a Standard action (i.e. a single attack action), and Vital strike can apply any time you use the attack action, but is not an action in itself (swift, immediate, standard or otherwise). So, that's why I think they are compatible.
@Xuttah: That is true, but that is not the problem.
Heres the problem;
"Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action."
The problem is that all attack actions are standard actions but not all standard actions are attack actions.
If that made any sense, good job! Since that probably didnt, I will elaborate.the attack action is a standard action. Pinpoint Targeting is a standard action. You cannot combine the two for the same reason that you cannot combine cleave, shooting and a melee attack. They all require standard actions but you can only use one a turn. there may be an attack during pinpoint targeting but it is still classified as a standard, not attack action.
Hopefully that made more sense :P
Edit: that was a bad example, the intent was that you can only take 1 standard, not cram as many things into a single standard because they are all called the same thing. Sorry.
You can only make 1 simple attack.
However there are some things people have not yet mentioned. It is possible to make that one attack flashy.
Vital Strike works ok with Felling Smash, so you can attempt to vital strike trip someone. Cleaving Finish / Improved Cleaving Finish could even grant extra attacks while using Vital Strike.
It explictly works with Death or Glory. The Devasting Strike feats explictly improve Vital Strike.
The way I read it is that Pinpoint Targeting is a Standard action (i.e. a single attack action), and Vital strike can apply any time you use the attack action, but is not an action in itself (swift, immediate, standard or otherwise). So, that's why I think they are compatible.
Pinpoint Targeting is a specific standard action, just like Cleave. If you're using a standard action to Cleave or use Pinpoint Targeting (or cast Fireball, or channel energy), you can't also use a standard action to perform the attack action, so you can't use Vital Strike.
Overhand Chop, for example, does work with Vital Strike, since they both work when you use the attack action.
Vital Strike is perfect feat design, except for the fact that it doesn't work alongside any of the things a player would want it to work with.
When I first read Vital Strike, I thought "finally someone designed a feat for people who like Spring Attack". But no.
