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has anyone drawn up house rules that make Acrobatics checks through threatened or occupied spaces more doable?
my level 1 rogue (+8) has attempted this a couple of times and always gets swiped.
naturally, waiting until the right opportunity (sans Combat Reflexes) is an option. as is having Mobility as 'back-up'. but, i would think that a medium creature tumbling through/into a large foe's square would be at a bonus to Acrobatics, especially since a larger creature is bound to have a higher CMD.
something in the ballpark of +4. i know this would become redundant with the size bonus of +1/-1 to AC being factored into CMD. but still.
just sayin...
if not, is it worth it to throw up a Skill Focus to stay 'on par'?...
1. How many times did you try and tumble?
2. What did you roll each time?
In my experience with my rogue I took to level 15, I didn't have too much trouble tumbling here and there. I will say that getting Skill Focus (Acrobatics) is very worth it, especially in the higher levels. I also took Acrobatic to add even more to my tumbling, especially since it can help you tumble while prone away from a scary monster.
I'm assuming with a +8, you have an 18 Dex. A +8 adds 40% to your chance of succeeding. From what I saw of the creatures around CR 1/3 through 2, many have CMDs around 12 to 15, which gives you about 85% to 65% chance to succeed. I feel that maybe you just rolled low a couple times, which honestly happens.
The last game I ran with a Rogue, he pretty much made Acrobatics checks to avoid an AoO a joke once he got a hold of some boots of elvenkind as treasure at 2nd level. He did take a skill focus at one point, but I think it was actually in perception rather than acrobatics since he was worried about his low wisdom score (but I could be wrong on that).
Large creatures already had a -1 penalty to hit you after you fail the Acrobatics check. In games I've run, my players almost always manage to succeed at this against normal sized foes, I think it's just your luck.
Also, the Mobility feat is really helpful for helping you get past those AoOs when your Acrobatics roll fails.
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Big Lemon,
as it stands,
using Acrobatics to shift through the threatened or occupied squares of a larger creature is more difficult where it should be less difficult. there are two factors here:
1) ST adds to CMD
2) CMD size modifiers are inverse (a large creature may have a -1 size penalty to strike, but it has a +1 size bonus to CMB and CMD)
so, my proposal (reproduced below) is to grant bonuses to the Acrobatics check rather than alter the CMD of the betumbled creature.
When using Acrobatics to move through the threatened or occupied squares of a creature wearing armor, you may take it's ACP (armor check penalty) as a positive circumstance bonus to your skill check.
When using Acrobatics to move through the threatened or occupied squares of a larger creature, you may take a +4 circumstance bonus to your skill check per size category difference.
When using Acrobatics to move through the threatened or occupied squares of a smaller creature, you take a -4 circumstance penalty to your skill check per size category difference.
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unless i am missing something, in my core rulebook, there is no Fast Tumble talent, regular or advanced, that removes the penalty for tumbling at full speed.
but it says here that there ought to be. is my book in the wrong printing? or is this a glitch?
also, it says "threatened squares", does that mean it cannot be used through occupied squares?
...
thirdly, which tumble DC houserule do you all think is better:
tumble DC = enemy's 10+BAB+DX or 10+Acrobatics (enemy choice, a la Feinting)?
or
+/-4 per size category as a bonus/penalty to tumbler's check, normal CMD?
Fast Tumble is actually an Advanced Rogue Talent from the Advanced Player's Guide. The SRD is incorrect.
A creature's space is mechanically a threatened square, so I would say, yes, Fast Tumble applies when tumbling through an occupied square.
For a houserule, I would just say the Acrobatics DC to tumble through a threatened square is equal to 10 + the opponent's BAB + the opponent's Dexterity modifier. All other rules for tumbling apply as normal.
In addition, inspired by the Intimidate skill,
Special: You also gain a +4 bonus on Acrobatics checks to tumble if you are smaller than your opponent and a –4 penalty on Acrobatics checks to tumble if you are larger than your target.
Clean cut and simple. Done.
has anyone drawn up house rules that make Acrobatics checks through threatened or occupied spaces more doable?
my level 1 rogue (+8) has attempted this a couple of times and always gets swiped.
naturally, waiting until the right opportunity (sans Combat Reflexes) is an option. as is having Mobility as 'back-up'. but, i would think that a medium creature tumbling through/into a large foe's square would be at a bonus to Acrobatics, especially since a larger creature is bound to have a higher CMD.
something in the ballpark of +4. i know this would become redundant with the size bonus of +1/-1 to AC being factored into CMD. but still.
just sayin...
if not, is it worth it to throw up a Skill Focus to stay 'on par'?...
Yes it worth it if that going to be your trick.
But it sound like you all rady spent 2 feats of Dodge and Mobilty. So suck it up till level 5 when you can get the pay off for spring attack.
In the mean time spend 2.5 k on boots of the elevenkind or +5 to Acrobatics. No change is rules is need but change build and play style maybe if tumbleing is what your trick is going to be. If you want to tumble then build to tumble. If you half way build to tumble the you may get caught half the time. It the risk. And vs most CR 1 you only need to Roll 6 to get by since most CR 1 CMD are 14. That is 75% chance of success with your curent build not to bad in my book.
The problem I have with tumbling/acrobatics to avoid an AoO, is that at which point the check is made, the attacker has already committed to making an attack. example:
Character is trying to tumble past a monster, monster doesn't use it's AoO, the tumble check is irrelevant, as the character isn't going to be subject to an AoO. If the tumble check is relevant, then the monster has already committed to making that attack, otherwise you wouldn't need to tumble around it.
So something like this: A tumble check may be used (with all relevant modifiers) in place of AC against AoOs caused by movement.
The problem with this is it leaves the monster without multiple AoOs "un- threat-ing" until it's turn, unlike simply not getting it's AoO by being tumbled.