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So......got a +2 Holy Brilliant Bastard Sword. Our party basically had no use for it, thought I would use it as a holdout weapon for my archer.
I cannot locate in Pathfinder any definitive answers to the following and want to not have 5 hour conversations with my group:
1) can you disarm with an energy weapon. Ever. Prolly not but want to verify. Also can weapon be disarmed?
2) can you sunder or have the weapon be sundered? Again prolly not but want to see rules on this.
3) can the holy property work even on undead? Who knows.
4) does str modifier apply? See arguments both ways. Can u use it two handed?
5) can the weapon affect incorporeal creatures? Undead incorporeal creatures? Since it is made of energy
6) is weapon stopped by Mage armor? Other armor bonus spells? Wall of force?
I know this is a lot, but I found very little definitive answers on these with links to pathfinder rules. All I get is long threads and debates.
Thanks!
1) can you disarm with an energy weapon. Ever. Prolly not but want to verify. Also can weapon be disarmed?
2) can you sunder or have the weapon be sundered? Again prolly not but want to see rules on this.
3) can the holy property work even on undead? Who knows.
4) does str modifier apply? See arguments both ways. Can u use it two handed?
5) can the weapon affect incorporeal creatures? Undead incorporeal creatures? Since it is made of energy
6) is weapon stopped by Mage armor? Other armor bonus spells? Wall of force?
Here's the way I see it after reading the description of Brilliant Energy on page 470 of the core rulebook.
1. You have to be able to hold it. It is not a natural weapon, nor is it somehow bolted to your hand. So I could be disarmed. IMHO.
2)I agree with you on the sundering... except that it could be sundered by a living monk or the natural weapon of a living creature.
3 & 5) It does not effect non-living matter. To the best of my knowledge there are no living undead. Nor can I recall any living monster that is incorporeal.
4)Nothing in the description of brilliant energy indicates you wouldn't use you're str bonus. In fact it says the weight is unchanged. You can use it two handed, and must (or suffer a -4 penalty) unless you have the exotic weapon prof. for a bastard sword. This is not the Sun Sword from 1st ed. there's nothing that makes it easier to use than a regular bastard sword, Thundar.
6)Only if force effects are living material. by definition force effects are non-material.
BUT, your GM might rule contrary to any/all of my notions.
6)Only if force effects are living material. by definition force effects are non-material.
My reasoning here is wrong. Force effect might work because the are non-material. Or they might not work because they give an armor or shield bonus to AC.
I think a better question might be, since it is transformed into mostly light, would darkness type spells effect it?
Yeah. Not sure if darkness would affect it or not. The sword is a massive puzzle. When I asked question 3, I wondered basically what triggers the holy ability. Damage or a successful to hit roll.
The force, incorporeal thing drives me crazy too.
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I've always thought Brilliant Energy was badly thought out, although the concept is cool.
Brilliant Energy wrote:-
'...A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects...'
The concept seems to be an intangible blade that disrupts the soul. I find that Natural Armour bonuses still working against it to be inconsistent with that concept, but YMMV.
I also find it very overpriced at +4! it's great for the baddies to use against your PCs, but it's not worth the +4 to PCs who, by the levels they can afford it, face beasties that rely on natural armour!
If I were to write it, both to match the concept and to make it worth +4, I'd make attacks with it like an incorporeal creature's attack:-
'An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.'
Yes very overpriced. So far from what I read it is best applied against the evil knight in armor types. But I could see long pointless debates on this weapon and wanted to try and clarify before it became a long debate.
1) can you disarm with an energy weapon. Ever. Prolly not but want to verify. Also can weapon be disarmed?
Yes to both.
2) can you sunder or have the weapon be sundered? Again prolly not but want to see rules on this.
It cannot sunder because it cannot deal damage to objects. It can be sundered, however, because it is not immune to damage from the sources it can't damage.
3) can the holy property work even on undead? Who knows.
No. A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead.
4) does str modifier apply? See arguments both ways. Can u use it two handed?
Yes to both. I'm not even really sure why this would be a question.
5) can the weapon affect incorporeal creatures? Undead incorporeal creatures? Since it is made of energy
The weapon cannot harm undead, so no to incorporeal undead. It can harm non-undead/non-construct incorporeal enemies, but it does half damage, like all magic weapons against incorporeal enemies (unless it's a ghost touch brilliant energy weapon).
6) is weapon stopped by Mage armor? Other armor bonus spells? Wall of force?
Mage Armor provides an armor bonus and a Brilliant Energy weapon ignores Armor bonuses, so no, Mage Armor does not protect. As for the more general question, and spell that gave an armor or shield bonus would be ignored--all other bonuses would work.
I'm not sure what you're asking about the Wall of Force.
It's very simple if you just take the text as is and stop reading into it.
Interesting. So this weapon is horrible basically. It is no advantages whatsoever unless you are fighting super tank guy with a crapload of armor. I should devote no feats to it as it is useless. This ability should be a curse, not a bonus at plus four, as it has absolutely no redeeming features. Who wrote this in then?
And I asked the str bonus question because I read in 3.5 those bonuses did not apply. So that is why it is a question.
The weapon wouldnt be horrible, If you enchanted ammunition or a thrown weapon, you could throw it through walls and such, would work better if you had some form of xray vision. just chuck your 2 handed great-axe through 2 feet of stone and have it come back via blinkback belt.
Also note, it says "ignores nonliving matter" and I would doubt that force effects like wall of force would count as matter.
As it is, It is still overpriced, you do have to get a bit creative with it tho.
Ps: how does this work with AOMF anyways? what part of you and when actually goes through non-living matter?
I don't understand what makes this weapon horrible. You ignore all armor and shield bonuses! That's fantastic! Are you fighting only Undead/Constructs or running some kind of odd Sunder build or something? I don't understand why you'd turn down extreme accuracy like that.
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I don't understand what makes this weapon horrible. You ignore all armor and shield bonuses! That's fantastic! Are you fighting only Undead/Constructs or running some kind of odd Sunder build or something? I don't understand why you'd turn down extreme accuracy like that.
You don't ignore natural armour!
When the beasties you fight have +20 natural armour your very expensive +8 sword is only as good as a +4 sword! Most beasties don't wear armour or use shields!
If Brilliant Energy made touch attacks, that would be worth +4.
I don't understand what makes this weapon horrible. You ignore all armor and shield bonuses! That's fantastic! Are you fighting only Undead/Constructs or running some kind of odd Sunder build or something? I don't understand why you'd turn down extreme accuracy like that.You don't ignore natural armour!
Got it--this is a playstyle thing , then. When I run games, I use 90% humanoid enemies with class levels as foes. Of course, I also don't use magic items, so I guess it's moot.
Actually our game has a lot of demons and undead, so it's use is very situational. If it really only ignores armor, it should be a + 1 or 2 bonus tops. It has all the disadvantages of a normal weapon, can be sundered, can be disarmed, is a melee weapon so it cannot be thrown through walls, but other than the armor thing cannot actually do squat. It cannot harm objects. It cannot sunder. Cannot hit incorp or undead at all. Cannt hit constructs... Disarm is debatable and I think my group is sure you don't get str bonuses.
Oh and since it is a bastard sword I need a feat to use it effectively.
So...hence the worthless. Heck its a curse... I'm better off buying a + 1 undead bane weapon.
If bothers you this much just sell it. I think it kool but the holy is lame since it can not be use against undead. I rather have Wounding it make more sincese to me.
I think my group is sure you don't get str bonuses.
All the rest of what you said is a perfectly valid take on things, and in your group's situation, yeah, it's not very good.
However, this part is unquestionably wrong. You absolutely get Strength to damage and hit and nothing in the description of the item or anything else suggests otherwise. What argument could your group possibly have?
Or, you can ask your DM if there's a way to turn the Brilliant part of it OFF, so you can have a usable +2 Holy sword whenever you're fighting something the sword can't hurt, or not in heavy armor.
Note that against Foes in ARMOR, like a high level fighter, that Sword is potentially giving you the equivalent of +20 to hit, so don't write it off. That's why Brilliant is +4.
But yeah, Brilliant is famous as a PC killer and useless to PC's.
BTW, is that sword from Slumbering Tsar? I found it laughable that a high level paladin and foe of Orcus had a sword that was absolutely useless against undead, and that looks like the sword.
==Aelryinth
Or, you can ask your DM if there's a way to turn the Brilliant part of it OFF, so you can have a usable +2 Holy sword whenever you're fighting something the sword can't hurt, or not in heavy armor.
Yeah, being able to turn Brilliant Energy off would take some of the sting out of it as a general-purpose weapon upgrade by not making your weapon completely useless against constructs and undead.
Or, you can ask your DM if there's a way to turn the Brilliant part of it OFF, so you can have a usable +2 Holy sword whenever you're fighting something the sword can't hurt, or not in heavy armor.
Note that against Foes in ARMOR, like a high level fighter, that Sword is potentially giving you the equivalent of +20 to hit, so don't write it off. That's why Brilliant is +4.
But yeah, Brilliant is famous as a PC killer and useless to PC's.
BTW, is that sword from Slumbering Tsar? I found it laughable that a high level paladin and foe of Orcus had a sword that was absolutely useless against undead, and that looks like the sword.
==Aelryinth
Yes indeed it is from Tsar. Our group had it hung up at HQ as a bug zapper. I took it down as a holdout weapon for my plinker.
But yeah, Brilliant is famous as a PC killer and useless to PC's.
Hmmm. In that case I will give one to my low will save, pouncing wild rager barbarian and see who still likes me after a game! Could be fun...
While the rules only focus on the two main non-living matter objects protecting someone (Armor and Shield) there are more than that on a battlefield.
Things that should work:
♦ With a large brilliant weapon you can fight in a narrow tunnel unhindered (cause the weapon will pass through the non-living walls with ease). Thus you don't get the usual penalties.
♦ You can slice through cover (archer hiding behind those little holes in the wall or simply part of a fence etc.). Does not work with (still living) trees though.
♦ If you have some means to look through walls you can attack through them. If you have a caster with you, he could enclose an enemy in a wall of stone and then slice and dice through it till he is dead... although being trapped in stone usually means you have lost anyway ^^.
♦ You can use the weapon under water easily cause there is no resistance to it. While your arms still cause drag your GM should at least consider reducing the penalty.
At the very least if you are outside the water the creature under water does not get a cover bonus against your attacks.
♦ You can attack a burrowing creature (like an earth elemental) while it is hiding in stone/earth.
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Yeah, this one is situationally useful. My last campaign, after level 10 (when we might have been able to afford a +5 equivalent weapon) we fought 3 living enemies in armour - and 5 liches, and plenty of other undead and constructs! Clearly in that sort of campaign a brilliant energy weapon is a liability. If you could turn it off it's not a problem, but still might be worth more as sold loot.
Karuth's ideas are good, but they're dependent in DM ruling - a narrow corridor still restricts your elbows, murky water might give concealment rather than cover, and the weapon can only pass through walls if the blade fits all the way through (only the business end is energy - the haft or hilt are solid so you can hold it). Also any burrowing creature would still get total concealment.
Absolutely worth it in a campaign with a lot of armoured humanoid enemies, though.
Karuth's ideas are good, but they're dependent in DM ruling - a narrow corridor still restricts your elbows, murky water might give concealment rather than cover, and the weapon can only pass through walls if the blade fits all the way through (only the business end is energy - the haft or hilt are solid so you can hold it). Also any burrowing creature would still get total concealment.
The situation I meant was when you get a penalty for wielding big weapons (like a reach weapon) but none when wielding a small weapon.
The description says "significant amount", but if you are a living person you could hold a completely Brilliant Energy weapon by the hilt since it can't pass through your hand. Although if you drop it it would fall through to the earth's core ^^. Not good.
And interestingly for many weapon abilities you can turn the effect on and off. But Brilliant Energy is always on, if you like it or not. It would certainly improve the usefulness if turning on/off would be allowed.
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Saying brilliant energy is useless is like saying a Ranger's Woodland Stride is pointless and useless because you're playing a sea-based campaign. Or a ninja's vanishing trick is useless because everything you're fighting has some form of tremor-sense, blind-sense, or blind-fight. Or every spell in a wizard's book because you're fighting constructs.
If you know you're going to be fighting all big bad monsters with no armor and high natural ac, don't take brilliant energy. If you know you're going to be fighting a lot of denizens from the plane of fire, don't take fiery weapon or a lot of fire spells.
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The description says "significant amount"
Not quite right. The description says "A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light meaning the important part. The blade of a sword, the head of a mace or axe, the tip of a spear.
Unless you are defining a narrow hallways as small than 5 feet and you have to squeeze to get in you can use a reach weapon in a narrow hallway anyway. *Poke poke*. Attacking through walls is not allowed, however, because the damage portion would pass through the wall but then would be stopped because of the haft of the spear, glaive, or whatever. Unless you're talking about a sword with a 10 foot long blade, it wouldn't work.
Edit: Because it's too early for the spelling needed for the smart making. :P
There is nothing in the blade's description that says it ignores cover and passes through walls and can hit stuff on the other side. Those are powerful game effects, and if they existed would be delineated (as they are with Seeking for bows).
Best effect is that the blade simply goes immaterial when passing through large chunks of inanimate matter, OR simply bends and splashes off them like liquid light, or simply 'ends' at the object like a flashlight when swung, reforming to full length when the strike is completed.
Furthermore, the hilt is not so blessed, and so when it is dropped it's not going anywhere.
==Aelryinth
The only good thing about it is it's resale value! Sell PDQ and by a useful magic weapon.
You should get 64,000 and change for selling it at half value, giving you somewhere between a +5 and a +6 weapon:
• +1 Vorpal
• +3 Speed
• +4 Holy
• +5 KeenEnjoy yourself.
Really, this. Sell it and get something more useful.
Actually, that blade is one of the holiest weapons of the faith of Muir. You should be able to sell it to the Church of Muir for full value. IT's one of the two weapons that can be used to admit a paladin to the Order of the Justicars!
==Aelryinth