Hey all,
Im getting ready for a low level campaign, my group normally stays to low levels and I normally play either cleric or a melee character. I've spoken to the guy that normally plays the wizard in our games about how awesome color spray is at low levels but he still wont even put it in his spell book much less memorize it as one of his dailies.
So I've decided to show him in our next campaign by playing a character that uses color spray. I want to play a rogue but the only way I know how to do both would put me either a level behind normal or put me not getting the spell till 3rdI level, a good half way through our campaign.
Does any one have a better idea how to get color spray at first while still being an effective melee character? Im even up for switching to fighter or barbarian if that would help, unfortunately magus is out of the question because dm disallowed it from an extremely powerful build I did a while back...
Any ideas?
Showing them 'the wrong of their ways' is probably the wrong way to go about it. Just play a melee character like you want. If you absolutely don't want to lose a level, UMD is about your only low level option. Take the trait that increases your starting gold to 900 and buy a wand of it.
My gnome loves color spray.
Major magic rogue talent, get it by 3rd level with extra rogue talent feat. Requires an Int of 11, which should be easy
If you read the OP they've considered that and wanted something else.
Magus?
Get color spray right out of the gate, class is designed to combine competent melee combat and spell casting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey all,
Im getting ready for a low level campaign, my group normally stays to low levels and I normally play either cleric or a melee character. I've spoken to the guy that normally plays the wizard in our games about how awesome color spray is at low levels but he still wont even put it in his spell book much less memorize it as one of his dailies.
So I've decided to show him in our next campaign by playing a character that uses color spray. I want to play a rogue but the only way I know how to do both would put me either a level behind normal or put me not getting the spell till 3rdI level, a good half way through our campaign.Does any one have a better idea how to get color spray at first while still being an effective melee character? Im even up for switching to fighter or barbarian if that would help, unfortunately magus is out of the question because dm disallowed it from an extremely powerful build I did a while back...
Any ideas?
Maybe he just does not want to use the spell. Them not taking it, does not mean they don't see the value of it. He may also not want to be withing 15 feet of the enemy with no cover. Personally I like the spell, but if the enemy makes the save he could be in trouble.
Also, I can't recommend Heavens Oracle enough.
The d8 hp and cleric BAB combine with armored (divine) casting, and color spray at 2nd as a free spell known and the "Awesome Display" mystery is effectively "Color Spray gets steriods"
Magus?
Get color spray right out of the gate, class is designed to combine competent melee combat and spell casting.
Again, read the OP, magus isn't allowed....
Showing them 'the wrong of their ways' is probably the wrong way to go about it. Just play a melee character like you want. If you absolutely don't want to lose a level, UMD is about your only low level option. Take the trait that increases your starting gold to 900 and buy a wand of it.
UND and wand of color spray? By second level I might have enough to purchase one but I would have to stack cha. And even with a 14 in that stat it would still put me needing to roll a 13 or higher to pull it off. That's not very good odds and I was hoping to get something at first so I can wipe out the usual array of kobolds or goblins. Any other advice?
All due respect I wasn't asking if you thought it was a good idea, I know it isn't optimized, just what the best way to pull it off would be while not gimping my character too much
Bard.
The wand would only have a DC of 11. I would not go with a wand.
The only thing I can think of is multiclassing. Go sorcerer, and take the rest of the levels in paladin. The charisma will benefit both classes. Losing +1 BAB won't kill your DPR, and you still have access to color spray.
And the players usual tactic is throw out a MM or 2 then move into melee using a quarter staff so getting into the dirty isn't a problem for him. He sees MM as the games best spell because of the no attack roll, I just want him to see that at low levels there are other great spells that could make combat easier especially at base levels. And after trying to talk to him he still prepares nothing but mm and maybe mage armor. So maybe if he sees its effects he'll change his mind about his god spell.
He could do much better than MM. Sleep might also be an option. It is a full round to cast, IIRC, but you can drop 4 goblins with one casting.
Hudax, bards don't get color spray.
Wraithstrike, not a bad idea, do sorcerer and paladin synergise pretty well aside from just their high cha.?
MC templar, I've never heard of heavens oracle, but it may be something to look into thanks. Atleast getting it at second level then I wouldn't have a higher chance to mis-cast.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
Heavens Oracle with a high Charisma can keep color spray functional for many many levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Showing them 'the wrong of their ways' is probably the wrong way to go about it. Just play a melee character like you want. If you absolutely don't want to lose a level, UMD is about your only low level option. Take the trait that increases your starting gold to 900 and buy a wand of it.UND and wand of color spray? By second level I might have enough to purchase one but I would have to stack cha. And even with a 14 in that stat it would still put me needing to roll a 13 or higher to pull it off. That's not very good odds and I was hoping to get something at first so I can wipe out the usual array of kobolds or goblins. Any other advice?
All due respect I wasn't asking if you thought it was a good idea, I know it isn't optimized, just what the best way to pull it off would be while not gimping my character too much
With all due respect, making a character to show another character how good a spell is after discussing it with them repeatedly and them not taking it, is a pretty jerk move. It amounts to 'I'm going to show you that you are doing it wrong.' If the DM has completely removed a class due to you.. it just reinforces my suspicion.
It isn't about optimized, its about your playstyle being detrimental to other peoples enjoyment of the game. Your desire to be 'right' and show others you are right is poor gaming ethic.
|
A Magician archetype Bard could get access to Color Spray at 2nd level. You lose out on Inspire Courage, but still have Medium BAB and decent buffing abilities.
Otherwise, just take a level in Sorcerer and go full BAB class for the rest. In an E6 campaign, those multiple daily uses of Color Spray will ALWAYS be useful. You could also consider taking levels of Cavalier, possibly Order of the Lion, to keep your Charisma score relevant. Alternatively, you could just go full Sorcerer, specializing in Transmutation spells and Color Spray. Buffed up you could get to Fighter level accuracy, and you'd have a decent array of spells to choose from.
Hudax, bards don't get color spray.
Wraithstrike, not a bad idea, do sorcerer and paladin synergise pretty well aside from just their high cha.?
MC templar, I've never heard of heavens oracle, but it may be something to look into thanks. Atleast getting it at second level then I wouldn't have a higher chance to mis-cast.
You can use wands that are on the sorcerer's spell list, but other than that one level of sorcerer is not going to do that much for you.
We don't know how the conversation went. IMHO there is a difference between:
Player 1: X is better.
Player 2: No it isn't.
--------------------------------------
Player 1: X is better.
Player 2: I know, but I don't like it.
In the first scenario giving an example is not a bad idea*, but for the second one I could see player 1 as being annoying.
*Well I would not mind anyway.
PS:The player might just want to do hit point damage. I would not bring up the color spray reasoning though. If seeing it is not enough then let him come around on his own time, and if he never comes around then let it be.
Again maybe I wasn't precise enough in my first post or the following one explaining that I was not looking for advice on how you feel I should move forward with the situation. So please let me clarify now I am not asking opinions on how I should handle the situation, I am looking for advice on how to get color spray on a melee character the previous mentioned magus build was a mix between great character rolls(2x18s and a 17), multiclassing, choice feats, and the dm giving treasure well above wealth by character lecvel charts, making the character op to the point that only monsters 2cr higher had a chance to hit the build coupled with the very deadly shocking grasp combo. I have discussed the spell but not in length with him, I personally think if he would see the spells effects in game he might want to use it, if not its fine by me but I would like to try to open his mind to more than just MM if I can. I realize that some reading this thread don't agree with these methods but again my method is not what I am asking for help with thank you to those who are sticking to the question at hand, any other advice on how to accomplish this build will be greatly appreciated. Any other "advice" on how I am going about it for the wrong reason will be ignored. Thank you
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again maybe I wasn't precise enough in my first post or the following one explaining that I was not looking for advice on how you feel I should move forward with the situation. So please let me clarify now I am not asking opinions on how I should handle the situation, I am looking for advice on how to get color spray on a melee character the previous mentioned magus build was a mix between great character rolls(2x18s and a 17), multiclassing, choice feats, and the dm giving treasure well above wealth by character lecvel charts, making the character op to the point that only monsters 2cr higher had a chance to hit the build coupled with the very deadly shocking grasp combo. I have discussed the spell but not in length with him, I personally think if he would see the spells effects in game he might want to use it, if not its fine by me but I would like to try to open his mind to more than just MM if I can. I realize that some reading this thread don't agree with these methods but again my method is not what I am asking for help with thank you to those who are sticking to the question at hand, any other advice on how to accomplish this build will be greatly appreciated. Any other "advice" on how I am going about it for the wrong reason will be ignored. Thank you
You can keep typing that, but people will still make comments on it.
It would be like if I typed about subject X and mentioned that I slapped the GM in the face. That might be my intended topic, but someone will tell me I was a jerk for doing so, and blah blah.PS:I am just saying that so you know others who see this will respond to what you are not asking about.
I have also used the same method, as a GM so I am not complaining. In my situation nobody caught on though. The idea of battlefield control still did not get across, le sigh.
I forgot about ASF when I suggested a sorcerer.
And if that be the case then so be it, I don't feel that introducing a little battle field control with the hopes that others pick up on it is a bad thing but perhaps to some it is. I now that there are different gamers at all tables and one persons view of what is kosher could be a sin to someone else. But I have seen it in other threads, as seems to be the case in this one, that some feel it is their duty to police the actions at an unknown table across the nation with a "holier-than-thou" attitude when honestly all that is ever witnessed is a one-sided glimpse of a moment at a gaming table far far away.
Here's the problem with the single level. He's going to have to accept arcane spell failure chance, unless he's looking to ditch the armor he's wearing.Can I suggest a single level of Wizard Diviner? You essentially trade a point of BAB to act during surprise rounds, even if you normally couldn't, and a slight initiative bonus, IIRC. Coupled with a Rogue Talent like Snapshot, you're guaranteed to catch somebody flatfooted with your sneak attack. The fact that you can now read magic, gain a bunch of class skills, and an arcane bond to give you spell versatility (nothing like an emergency Feather Fall) are all just incidental incentives.
Wizard diviner sounded pretty good until lazarX got to it, I wasn't even thinking s'not he arcane spell failure involved with things... that throws a whole new wrench into the plans...
And if that be the case then so be it, I don't feel that introducing a little battle field control with the hopes that others pick up on it is a bad thing but perhaps to some it is.No it's not. Doing it just to badger another player who refused to do it themselves is the problem.
You're making an assumption again, based off worse case scinerios, its not that he refuses to, its that he's never looked at the spell, simply passing by it to grab MM for an extra daily use. If he looked into it and decided that it wasn't as reliable as MM that's one thing but its never seen play at the table because he is the only arcane castermost of the time, I am attempting to fill my normal role as melee fighter while Also putting spells into combat other than ranged damage similar to the roll an archer build would fill.
Fair point, but it occurs to me that Rogues only get light armor anyways. This could be pretty easily replaced with a Mage Armor spell if one was anticipating trouble, (Considering there is a diviner subschool that creates scrying sensors, I'm assuming that scouting is free and easy), an emergency Shield spell, or, for the Rogue who always believes in using protection, both. Additionally, there's nothing prohibiting you from carrying a chain shirt around if/when you run out of spells or you kit out with a different set of spells that day. Hell, with everyone else suggesting a 1st level wand, a wand of Mage Armor seems as practical as anything, especially with that opening sneak attack guarantee. I guess worst case scenario, you could just gamble with 20% spell failure. It's not terrible odds, and frankly, a Wizarding school dropout might actually be a hilarious character to play.
That's a very interesting concept, hmm I may have to look into that build after all
You're making an assumption again, based off worse case scinerios, its not that he refuses to, its that he's never looked at the spell, simply passing by it to grab MM for an extra daily use. If he looked into it and decided that it wasn't as reliable as MM that's one thing but its never seen play at the table because he is the only arcane castermost of the time, I am attempting to fill my normal role as melee fighter while Also putting spells into combat other than ranged damage similar to the roll an archer build would fill.And if that be the case then so be it, I don't feel that introducing a little battle field control with the hopes that others pick up on it is a bad thing but perhaps to some it is.No it's not. Doing it just to badger another player who refused to do it themselves is the problem.
So I've decided to show him in our next campaign by playing a character that uses color spray.
I think LazarX is quite right in his assessment of intent. Heck...you said it yourself, Joe. Good luck in your quest for the elusive Itoldya So critter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shaman Bond wrote:
Can I suggest a single level of Wizard Diviner? You essentially trade a point of BAB to act during surprise rounds, even if you normally couldn't, and a slight initiative bonus, IIRC. Coupled with a Rogue Talent like Snapshot, you're guaranteed to catch somebody flatfooted with your sneak attack. The fact that you can now read magic, gain a bunch of class skills, and an arcane bond to give you spell versatility (nothing like an emergency Feather Fall) are all just incidental incentives.Here's the problem with the single level. He's going to have to accept arcane spell failure chance, unless he's looking to ditch the armor he's wearing.
Wizard diviner sounded pretty good until lazarX got to it, I wasn't even thinking s'not he arcane spell failure involved with things... that throws a whole new wrench into the plans...
It's not as bad as you'd think. I'm playing a Wizard Diviner (foresight subschool) 1/ Ninja 5 at the moment and loving him. With a Mithril Chain shirt you are at a 10% ASF. Take the arcane armor feat (you qualify with the magical knack trait at character level 3) and that lets you ignore the 10% ASF as a swift action. Sure it's a feat you wouldn't take otherwise, but the one level of wizard has perks.
Foresight subschool still gives you a +1 initiative. Take a Compsognathus familiar and you get a +4 for him. Take the reactionary trait for another +2. That's +7 initiative without improved initiative or your dex. I'm at a +13 initiative at level 6 without improved initiative (Iron man game). Did I mention you get to go in the surprise round? And then you probably get to go first in the first full round of combat? Take the scout archetype and charge for sneak attack as surprise, then full attack (TWF) at the top of the round for sneak attack if your target hasn't yet acted in combat.
You also get acid spray as a ranged touch, which allows you to ranged sneak attack the first round if you'd rather not charge into melee right away. Or combine with improved invis, vanish or stealth for the same effect. It’s a minor boon, but comes in handy.
Did I mention the foresight subschool lets you roll a d20 at the start of each round and substitute that roll in for one roll that turn 3+Int times per day? I tumble through enemies squares (not just threatened, through their actual squares) with impunity.
Take ninja and get poison use. That Compsognathus familiar... yeah he has a poison you can milk and coat your weapons with. The poison is HD dependant so while you’re familiar doesn't get the cool upgrades for going straight wizard, he still goes up in effective hit die with you, and so the poison DC slowly improves as you level. Most things will save, but some things won’t.
My group uses the crit deck. I use two +1 Keen Wakizashis. My DM cringes every time I start combat. "Okay that's a sneak attack from the charge in the suprise round plus 2 from my full TWF attack at the start of the first round. I also burn a ki point for an extra attack. So let’s see, that’s 4d4+12d6+4. He takes four str damage from my pressure points talent and I need two fort saves DC 15 for the first and DC17 for the second for 1d2 str damage each round for 4 rounds, oh and I crit'd twice so I need two crit deck cards. Then i swift action to vanish using my ninja talent. Okay, now he can act in combat." Going keen on this build is only worthwhile if you use crit decks for the rider effects, as your damage only increases from 1d4+1 to 2d4+2 on a crit, but in my game, my character is devastating. He’ll never be a damage beast that some THF Power attack builds can be, but he is crippling.
And since you are a wizard 1, you get your color spray.
Go with the single level. ASF of leather is still just 10%. You can't be Le Awesome at everything. At higher levels use the slots for out of combat spells (for a roguish character, unseen servant does wonders).
Oh, also I'm sensing a disconnect on the optimization level within the group. If everyone is playing like the wizard player (low level of optimization), don't be That Guy.
I think LazarX is quite right in his assessment of intent. Heck...you said it yourself, Joe. Good luck in your quest for the elusive Itoldya So critter.
Glad you see it that way Brox, I'm tired of expanding on the one part of the OP that I'm not looking for advice on. What I'm doing is wrong as decided upon by people ignoring what I am asking for. Great, and now that that's out of the way, now that we all know I am wrong for doing what I am doing, do you have any relevant advice on how to accomplish it?
Lacdannan.... that all sounds amazing and is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread... I don't know how to thank you enough for this post. That one lengthy but jewel encrusted post was worth reading through all the posts of people saying I am wrong for wanting to make this build. Thank you
Happy to help Joegoat. You may also want to take a look at Arcane Trickster Prestige class. I didn't take it in my build, but it has some interesting abilities that can be fun.
When color spray wanes in usefulness don't neglect your limited amount of 1st level spells. As a diviner, I have True Strike prepared daily. Vanish and Expeditious Retreat are nice (the latter harmonizing well with the ninja spending a ki point to increase speed by 20ft). Scribe Scroll is incredibly useful. I have a spellbook full of level 1 spells (cheap to get) and almost always have a useful scroll to whip out. I also have a wand of shield (also very cheap). If I have a round before I start combat, I pop a charge (at CL1 it lasts 9 rounds thereafter) which gives my ninja an AC of 27 (10 + 4 armor + 4 shield + 6 dex + 1 Amulet of Natural Armor + 1 Ring of protection + 1 size). Not too shabby.
|
If you want your Color Spray to keep its usefulness, a 1-level dip in Oracle (Heavens) will do wonders (and an additional level will give you even more Color Spray).
Or you might be interested in a 1-level dip in crossblooded sorcerer Verdant (for use against plants)/Pestilence (for use against vermins).
Would that work against swarms? And what would it do to them? Make them drop put of the air/break up?
Heavens oracle is probably your best to use color spray on a melee character. Oracles can be built to be pretty good at melee.
A level of either sorc or wiz tacked onto a rogue is not bad at all. But it isn't really the melee build I thought you said you wanted. That is more for the skill monkey / utility guy kind of build.