Though the arguement can also be made that a whip fails to function off of the reach rules as standard as its text is listed. So that anyone who uses it simply gets 15ft added to their reach regardless of the size.
Nope if you read the Whip is says you can attack out to 15ft period.
Also reach weapons for small creatures have to be longer not shorter as the reach is the same 10ft a medium creature gets meaning that the halfling must be using a longer spear than the human.
1) Whips defy normal Size Category rules re: Reach,
so it's pretty much just YOUR normal Reach + 15', period. Feel free to house-rule though.
2) When using weapons that use normal/Reach reach rules for their Size,
I will hilight an additional line of the rules that I find highly relevant:
Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Note that last bit about appropriate size.
AKA Reach Weapons are designed to double the Reach of their INTENDED wielders.So for cases where 'appropriate size' weapons aren't being used,
What I do is figure out how much Reach is being added (+X') for the 'appropriate sized' user,
and add that on to the Reach of the actual user...
i.e. a Giant using a Human sized Reach Weapon will not have as big a Reach as a Giant using a Giant sized Reach Weapon.
Weapon size doesn't change reach. Only character size. Nothing in any book says changing the size of a weapon changes the reach it gives.
If you're using a large 12' bastard sword it still only threatens your natural 5' reach. If you're a medium character using a tiny longspear in one hand as a light weapon, you get the 10' reach in one hand (at the -4 to attack for inappropriate size).
It's silly and may get stuff thrown at you, but it seems to be RAW.
The large whip has a 20 foot reach in the hands of a medium character.That's not true. That's like saying someone who wields a large longsword has a 10 foot reach.
Actually, it's more like saying a medium character wielding a large lucerne hammer has a 10 foot reach.
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Okay, after reading JJ's comment it seems pretty clear that a reach weapon doubles your natural reach with the exception that whips triple your natural reach. Also, another caveat is that tiny or smaller creatures threaten 5ft away with a reach weapon and 10ft away with a whip. The size of weapons have no bearing on this.
A medium creature can wield a large whip and it would only get a 15ft reach because whips only triple your natural reach. On the other hand a medium creature can wield a small whip and get a reach of 15ft because again, a whip only triples your natural reach. There is no way around this, increasing the size of the weapon only increases the damage and gives you a penalty to hit.
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Actually, it's more like saying a medium character wielding a large lucerne hammer has a 10 foot reach.The large whip has a 20 foot reach in the hands of a medium character.That's not true. That's like saying someone who wields a large longsword has a 10 foot reach.
A medium character can't wield a large two-handed weapon.
As has been said above, increasing or decreasing weapon size doesn't increase or decrease the reach of said weapon. Character size determines reach. Weapon size determines what type of weapon it is to the wielder: light, one-handed, two-handed, or unwieldable.
Jotungrip
EDIT : And note, I didn't say I agreed with either side on the reach. I just pointed out that your comment was a strawman. You picked a non-reach weapon for your comment, which was not a valid argument. The valid argument would be the one I provided. Whether the whip retains the larger size reach when wielded by smaller people or not is up to the GM since strict RAW says it doesn't, but common sense says RAW are idiotic.
EDIT Redux : Fixed a typo
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Jotungrip doesn't let you wield a larger-than-two-handed weapon.
EDIT : And note, I didn't say I agreed with either side on the reach. I just pointed out that your comment was a strawman. You picked a non-reach weapon for your comment, which was not a valid argument. The valid argument would be the one I provided. Whether the whip retains the larger size reach when wielded by smaller people or not is up to the GM since strict RAW says it does, but common sense says RAW are idiotic.
I don't believe I provided a strawman argument. 8 Red Wizards erroneously stated that increasing the weapon size of a whip to large would increase the reach by 5 feet. This is fallacious, because if that were so, then why wouldn't wielding any large sized weapon result in increased reach?
If it were as 8 Red Wizards states, your large lucerne hammer would have a 15 foot reach in the hands of a medium creature (should he somehow have a way to wield it, and no, Jotungrip doesn't work that way); the example I introduced which you called a strawman was merely an extrapolation. If increasing the size of a whip to large gives it 5 feet more reach, then a large longsword must have a 10 foot reach.
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Weapon size doesn't change reach. Only character size. Nothing in any book says changing the size of a weapon changes the reach it gives.
If you're using a large 12' bastard sword it still only threatens your natural 5' reach. If you're a medium character using a tiny longspear in one hand as a light weapon, you get the 10' reach in one hand (at the -4 to attack for inappropriate size).
It's silly and may get stuff thrown at you, but it seems to be RAW.
There is a large difference between a bastard swords and a whip. Bastard Swords aren't reach weapons mainly.
Think about it this way a Giant isn't going to use a medium size 15 foot whip when he can use a 20 foot appropriately sized to him whip. A large whip is still longer than the medium whip.
Giants have a 10ft reach, and a Giant with a large whip has a 30ft reach, and since the large whip has triple the giants reach if you put it into a medium size creatures hand it doesn't get smaller to match his size it just gets harder to use so he takes the appropriate minus's.
Giving a Medium Whip to a Giant doesn't turn it from 15ft reach into a 30ft reach. So why would a large Whips reach lower to a medium size just because it switched hands giants only have a 10ft reach.
Because this is a rules forum. The wielder's size determines reach, not the weapon's size. If this were a houserules forum, things would be different.
Actually, i was thinking of Massive Weapons, but rereading it, it doesn't seem to allow two-handed large weapons (I don't do barbarians much).
Either way, it was a strawman, because you picked a non-reach weapon for your argument. If you want to make the argument, then use the same type of weapon, reach weapon.
Again, I am not saying that RAW isn't on your side of the argument, it is. It's stupid and idiotic RAW, but that's how it's written. RAW says if you managed to wield a two-handed lucerne hammer as a medium creature, that even though it reaches 20 feet out for a large creature, it only reaches out 5 for you. That's idiotic. But it is RAW.
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Had a thought occur to me.
The Scorpion Whip is a Light weapon. Thus it would be conceivably possible to wield a huge Scorpion Whip as a two-handed weapon.
If a Large whip wouldn't increase reach, any chance a Huge one would?
Nope.
8 Red Wizards, you're wrong. You have no rules backing your point up, so I would point you towards the houserules forum.
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Just to make sure I understand how it would work in a game:
Medium character with a large whip:
- has a 15' reach
- must wield it two-handed
- takes a -4 penalty to attacks for inappropriately sized weapon.
EDIT: wait, because a medium whip is "light", would a large one be considered "one-handed" for a medium creature? I have to say, for some reason, I have trouble wrapping my mind around the inappropriately sized weapon stuff.
EDIT 2: Ahhhhhh. The normal whip is MEDIUM and the SCORPION whip is light...ok, I think I'm finally there now. ;)
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Just to make sure I understand how it would work in a game:
Medium character with a large whip:
- has a 15' reach
- must wield it two-handed
- takes a -4 penalty to attacks for inappropriately sized weapon.
-2 penalty, but other than that you've got it.
To all those saying "that doesn't make sense": make a house rule so it makes sense to you. However, when someone on the rules forum asks a question, don't answer it with the way you think things should be, or the way you'd do it if you had a chance to rewrite the rules.
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Just to make sure I understand how it would work in a game:
Medium character with a large whip:
- has a 15' reach
- must wield it two-handed
- takes a -4 penalty to attacks for inappropriately sized weapon.-2 penalty, but other than that you've got it.
To all those saying "that doesn't make sense": make a house rule so it makes sense to you. However, when someone on the rules forum asks a question, don't answer it with the way you think things should be, or the way you'd do it if you had a chance to rewrite the rules.
Gotcha! I looked back at it and saw the -4 for non-proficiency and thought that was it. So, -2 if you are proficient, -6 if you are not proficient.
The Scorpion Whip is a Light weapon. Thus it would be conceivably possible to wield a huge Scorpion Whip as a two-handed weapon.
The AA Scorpion Whip is one-handed, it's basically exactly like a whip but deals lethal damage, doesn't get stopped by armor, and has a bigger damage die.
The UC/UE Scorpion Whip is light, yes. But it also doesn't have reach (or trip or disarm). Unless you're using it as a whip, in which case it might work like a whip (granting it reach, trip, nonlethal, etc.), or it might only allow you to use it proficiently, depending on who you ask. (JJ implies the latter)
Here's a Scorpion Whip FAQ Request if you're interested in finding out how they actually work.
Just to make sure I understand how it would work in a game:
Medium character with a large whip:
- has a 15' reach
- must wield it two-handed
- takes a -4 penalty to attacks for inappropriately sized weapon.-2 penalty, but other than that you've got it.
To all those saying "that doesn't make sense": make a house rule so it makes sense to you. However, when someone on the rules forum asks a question, don't answer it with the way you think things should be, or the way you'd do it if you had a chance to rewrite the rules.
Here's a better answer. State what is RAW, and then state that RAW in this case is idiotic. This provides both the RAW, and the fact that the RAW is idiotic. The reason being, that perhaps the DEVs may read the posts, see just how idiotic it is, and issue an FAQ to clarify.
perhaps the DEVs may read the posts, see just how idiotic it is, and issue an FAQ to clarify.
Why would they clarify a rule they think is idiotic? Wouldn't they either change the rule so it's not idiotic, or leave it vague so people can rule however they want?
perhaps the DEVs may read the posts, see just how idiotic it is, and issue an FAQ to clarify.
Why would they clarify a rule they think is idiotic? Wouldn't they either change the rule so it's not idiotic, or leave it vague so people can run it how they like?
You can call me wrong all day, but reach is a property that provides weapons like whips and polearm there own reach, and a large reach weapon would still provide the reach of a large reach weapon which is 30.
Reach Weapons: "Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away."
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures: "Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less."
A large weapon does not provide the reach of a large creature.
A large reach weapon does not provide the reach of a large creature wielding a reach weapon.
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A couple of FAQ questions, if I may:
1) Is the reach of a whip a static 15', or does it triple the natural reach of the creature wielding it?
2) For creatures using inappropriately sized reach weapons, is their reach the same as if they were using an appropriately sized reach weapon, or is their reach based off of the reach of the intended user of the weapon? (Example 1: a medium creature wielding a Large longspear: is his reach 10' or 15'? Example 2: a medium creature wielding a Large whip: is his reach 15' or 25')?
1) Is the reach of a whip a static 15', or does it triple the natural reach of the creature wielding it?
RAW isn't explicit. James said (quoted upthread) a Large creature with a natural reach of 10' wielding a whip has 30' reach. There are written exceptions to that, for instance the Balor is a large creature with 10' reach, but only 20' reach with a whip.
2) For creatures using inappropriately sized reach weapons, is their reach the same as if they were using an appropriately sized reach weapon, or is their reach based off of the reach of the intended user of the weapon? (Example 1: a medium creature wielding a Large longspear: is his reach 10' or 15'? Example 2: a medium creature wielding a Large whip: is his reach 15' or 25')?
There are no rules even suggesting that the size of the weapon alters the amount of reach. Reach is always based off the users natural reach.
A large giant wielding a medium whip (as light at -2) has the same reach as a large giant wielding a large whip, and the same reach as large giant wielding a huge whip (as 2handed at -2).
It's certainly something that should be house ruled, but RAW there's no difference.
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Here's a better answer. State what is RAW, and then state that RAW in this case is idiotic. This provides both the RAW, and the fact that the RAW is idiotic. The reason being, that perhaps the DEVs may read the posts, see just how idiotic it is, and issue an FAQ to clarify.
That's only the case if the RAW happens to bad for the game. It's not. I don't see any reason to let someone wield an extra-long whip, especially one that isn't sized for them.
Houserule forums are that way. ---------->
There is an axiom that seems to come into play among my friends when we have rules discussions:
Here's a quote that may help clarify things:
Weapon sizes are a bit weird.
A weapon's size does not impact reach. Reach merely extends your normal reach, regardless of the size of the weapon. Which is weird and confusing, and a good reason to not go too far down the rabbit hole of using strangely sized weapons in the first place.
Regarding the Balor's 20 ft whip vs James' earlier mention of 30 ft reach (from later in the same thread):
You've convinced me that a Large creature's whip should have a reach of 20 feet. Presto, no rules errata needed!
And correct; reach is best handled as being independent from weapon size for game balance reasons, as far as I'm concerned.
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1) Is the reach of a whip a static 15', or does it triple the natural reach of the creature wielding it?RAW isn't explicit. James said (quoted upthread) a Large creature with a natural reach of 10' wielding a whip has 30' reach. There are written exceptions to that, for instance the Balor is a large creature with 10' reach, but only 20' reach with a whip.
2) For creatures using inappropriately sized reach weapons, is their reach the same as if they were using an appropriately sized reach weapon, or is their reach based off of the reach of the intended user of the weapon? (Example 1: a medium creature wielding a Large longspear: is his reach 10' or 15'? Example 2: a medium creature wielding a Large whip: is his reach 15' or 25')?There are no rules even suggesting that the size of the weapon alters the amount of reach. Reach is always based off the users natural reach.
I don't have a problem with that, but there is debate and figured these two questions sum up the debate fairly well.
I don't have a problem with that, but there is debate and figured these two questions sum up the debate fairly well.
Sorry, I thought you skipped over the thread. I think there's mostly cohesion here, but official clarification is always welcome.
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No, if you are medium, and wielding a large whip, then you can attack 15ft. away.
If someone casts enlarge person on you, then you can attack 30ft. away, with that same whip.
The size category of the weapon has no bearing on the amount of reach it grants you.
I think you'd be better off saying that you get enlarged and then pick up a medium whip. As you've stated it, the whip gets enlarged with you and your example leaves an opening for discussion that it is the large whip that gives reach. Not arguing with you, just playing devils advocate.