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See thread title.
Edit: Naturally, this applies only to characters made after the particular option became available.
Does anyone play Magi that doesn't use some Dex to Damage option?
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Does anyone play Magi that doesn't use some Dex to Damage option?
Here's to more variety and fewer obviously-better-than-everything-else options.
I don't want to see 'are all enchanters kitsunes?' to be answered in the same way as 'do all melee fighters get power attack?'.
Power attack is something I see as an essential feat. It is pretty much always the best feat for a melee damage-dealer, but its presence rests at the heart of melee damage design. At worst, it's a bit of a tax, but not a problematic one as I don't think many people are sad to have to spend a feat on it.
The dreadfully prolific blaster trend of being evoker admixture wizards with one level of crossblooded orc/draconic is just absurd. I there aren't other valid ways of being a blaster, I would be perfectly happy to ban that ridiculous combo not because it might be broken (whether it is or isn't is another discussion) but because the effect produced is completely stupid.
I have played enchanters in the past that weren't kitsune sorcerers, but future enchanters likely will be. Those bonuses are a bit overly good; almost like someone specifically set out to create the best enchanter race possible.
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Did you feel like you were voluntarily missing out on power by doing so?
I do not want to condemn a playstyle. I like the dex magus. My issue is when one specific thing is leagues ahead of other options that are fully intended to be on par.
Does anyone play Magi that doesn't use some Dex to Damage option?You rang?
Oh hey, you are the one!
One of my issues with the particular kitsune problem is that my very favourite kind of Pathfinder character is a human sorcerer (before that hideous favoured class nonsense).
Nowadays, if my character showed up alongside a kitsune, mine would be worse in almost every measurable way at the same expenditure of resources. To have comparable worth again, I'd have to play a different concept, or switch to kitsune.
Does anyone play Magi that doesn't use some Dex to Damage option?Here's to more variety and fewer obviously-better-than-everything-else options.
I don't want to see 'are all enchanters kitsunes?' to be answered in the same way as 'do all melee fighters get power attack?'.
Power attack is something I see as an essential feat. It is pretty much always the best feat for a melee damage-dealer, but its presence rests at the heart of melee damage design. At worst, it's a bit of a tax, but not a problematic one as I don't think many people are sad to have to spend a feat on it.
The dreadfully prolific blaster trend of being evoker admixture wizards with one level of crossblooded orc/draconic is just absurd. I there aren't other valid ways of being a blaster, I would be perfectly happy to ban that ridiculous combo not because it might be broken (whether it is or isn't is another discussion) but because the effect produced is completely stupid.
I believe the thought you are looking for is the difference between core and non-core, with regard to power attack being essential.
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I've never found enchantment that useful. Miss just not my bag, baby.
I don't even see any kitsune in our area. Not sure about enchanters.
On dex magi, they are just too good to pass up. However, I hear of other varieties (our CA has a whip magus.)
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I know of kitsune. I love enchanters. I still hate kitsune.
I dunno, the flavored class bonus is nice, but I just hate the flavor of it. It might work if I wanted to do a campaign based on Grimm Fairy Tales, but even as somebody who loves and defends gnomes to the death, fox people are just too silly for my tastes. (And no, I don't use Tengu or whatever the snake people are, either.)
That's true. There are few of my character concepts that fit well with being a fox-person :)
A catfolk enchanter, now, that would be something.. I'm sure that's what my cats are already!
Holy crud! That's obscene! I thought I was cool with my +2 to charms, till my fey-bloodline buddies told me about compulsions, but trade that Agile Trait for Gregarious, and take the bonus to enchantments, and you're pretty much irresistable.
That said I do have two more spells known of every level, so I can afford some utility spells, and be able to blast my way out of a really bad situation, but still...I kinda almost feel bad about myself now... =[
Rakshasa Tieflings make for some pretty beastly enchanters. I have one now that whenever I play it teammates are either thankful I can shut down so many threats, or they hate me for taking the fun out of encounters with fewer enemies.
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The kitsune bonus is good, but not great. I mean, there are lots of creatures that are immune to enchantment spells. It's good, but not epic.
Oh, and my favorite kind of Magus is a Bladebound Soulforger who specializes in power attacking/arcane striking with his bladebound bastard sword, using his spells mostly for utility and buffing, and Pool Strike for elemental damage when needed.
Though I'm still not sure as to whether or not I can make my black blade my weapon familiar...
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The human sorcerer is still extremely valid. A kitsune sorcerer is better at a single specific field of specialization; a human sorcerer can be good at a lot of things. Even if you want to play an "enchanter" sorcerer specifically, as long as you're willing to do more than that one thing you'll be fine.
Specialization is great, and I love kitsune sorcerer, but in terms of general gameplay the human sorcerer is probably more powerful. A super-high compulsion DC isn't a magic bullet.
And I hate the human sorcerer favoured class bonus for invalidating non-human sorcerers.
It is good, but if you are an enchanter you will have a really high DC anyway. I think that even before the Kitsune you can push a 35. I don't remember if that is the exact number, but it is pretty close.
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And I hate the human sorcerer favoured class bonus for invalidating non-human sorcerers.
I actually think the whole unique-favored-class-bonus business has gone a bit overboard. I was perfectly happy when my only choices were 1 skill point or 1 hit point every level :)
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In my games, that's all I allow.
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I've made several as NPC's. My players don't spend their time trying to squeeze every mechanical advantage out of their characters, or work actively to make the system cry like a little baby.
Which is why I like to remove things that exist only to squeeze out lopsided advantages.
The kitsune favoured class bonus cannot exist for any other reason than to amp up a single quality. It does nothing else.
Enchanter/rogue humans are pretty cool. Desperate to get sex and loot through magic and guile.
I've made several as NPC's. My players don't spend their time trying to squeeze every mechanical advantage out of their characters, or work actively to make the system cry like a little baby.
Good on you.
I can easily see someone playing a dhampir with an undead bloodline, but that would be more of a character with enchantments, rather than a complete focus on them.
As far as the magus counter-question goes, I have yet to see a scimitar magus, but I have seen a whip-magus, as the player thought that the reach was greater than a few points of damage that were going to be outclassed by the spell damage anyways. 15' is further than th reach of most creatures, preventing the whip magus from having to make as many of those pesky concentration checks as a scimitar owned one would.
Most of the reason for the scimitar magus is that it works with dervish dance (one of the few ways to get dex to damage) and its crit range applies to spells delivered through it.
With keen/improved crit, that's a 15-20 crit range on your touch spells.
As someone who's currently playing a Kitsune Fey Sorcerer/Heavens Oracle gestalt, I have to admit that it is hard to justify playing any other type of focused enchanter sorcerer. They're very powerful. In my defense, I wanted to play this character before the favored class bonus came out ;)
However, the existence of the undead and serpent bloodlines expand the options a bit in my opinion since they negate the immunities many creatures have against enchantment spells. Neither of them fit kitsunes very well thematically, so if you want these bloodlines you're probably going to choose another race unless you're either a powergamer or have an interesting character concept.
the human favored class bonuses might look powerful, especially on a sorcerer, but it is one of the few abilities that they can truly claim for their self.
the feat might look special, but several races provide abilities that are overall better than a feat, either by nickel and diming multiple smaller feats, or by simply having the ability to stack with the designated feat.
the bonus skill point per level can be replaced in two very easy ways, the first, investment of favored class bonus, the second, the open minded feat from Psionics Unleashed by dreamscarred press. this can also be replaced by a race with an intellegence bonus, whom shall be 2 languages above you at the very least
the human offers +2 to any single stat of your choice, but there is literally a variant race that will have a synergistic combination of bonuses for every major build type.
the human's lack of special senses or predetermined abilities is also their greatest weakness, the price they pay for customizability is a lack of overall power. especially when you can find a race with exactly the combination of powers you desire.
the human's spontaneous caster oriented favored class bonuses are the only unique trait they really have. no other race can truly replace this bonus and a human can take a feat to gain both this bonus and the free hit point per level.
Does anyone play Magi that doesn't use some Dex to Damage option?
What are those?
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Build the concept first, the mechanics second. Thus my ARG Half-Construct Str/Int Kensai Magus and my Kobold Sorceror (pre ARG Draconic/Elemental Crossblooded).
Nerfing myself with the Kobold blaster is fun actually...he's very flavorful and fun to play, enough blasty that once or twice a session I do amazing magic, and the rest I'm fighting for his life.
The Magus gets played in 2 weeks...he's a beast. 20Str, 20 Int, 14 Con...built for killin things.
I'll update you all on how it plays, but I'm thinking it'll be awesome, despite not Dervish Dancing.
See thread title.
Edit: Naturally, this applies only to characters made after the particular option became available.
Our Kitsune Sorcerer is the first I've ever seen, but I completely understand the why of it, and it seems more effect than cause.
Make another kind of Enchanter - ANY kind of enchanter - then compare their DC's against the kind of Will saves you see at higher levels. Why would you play a wizard where your spells have only a 20-30% chance of working at all (assuming you beat SR of course) when you don't have to?
In my opinion, Kitsune Sorcerer's are the first Enchanters that are actually playable in the middling to high levels.
It is good, but if you are an enchanter you will have a really high DC anyway. I think that even before the Kitsune you can push a 35. I don't remember if that is the exact number, but it is pretty close.
Not sure about that.
Highest DC I could manage for a Kitsune Sorcerer by level without magical aid:
4th level
Hideous Laughter
DC: 10 + 2 (spell level) +1 (race) +1 (favored class) +2 (Fey Bloodline) +5 (Charisma) +1 (Focus) +1 (Greater Focus) = 23
8th level
Crushing Despair
DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) +1 (race) +2 (favored class) +2 (Fey Bloodline) +5 (Charisma) +1 (Focus) +1 (Greater Focus) = 26
12th level
Cloak of Dreams
DC: 10 + 6 (spell level) +1 (race) +3 (favored class) +2 (Fey Bloodline) +6 (Charisma) +1 (Focus) +1 (Greater Focus) = 30
16th level
Irresistible Dance
DC: 10 + 8 (spell level) +1 (race) +4 (favored class) +2 (Fey Bloodline) +6 (Charisma) +1 (Focus) +1 (Greater Focus) = 33
20th level
Dominate Monster
DC: 10 + 9 (spell level) +1 (race) +5 (favored class) +2 (Fey Bloodline) +7 (Charisma) +1 (Focus) +1 (Greater Focus) = 36
Now that's with every bonus I could squeeze out of a Kitsune and the Bloodline Arcana... Spell Perfection or Eldritch Heritage feats for the Arcane Bloodline could get you another +2 late in the game. Eagle's Splendor would add +2 of course and a Headband could add another +1/+2/+3, but I don't build characters with the presumption of specific magic items...