I agree with Thorkull.
Um, I don't think vision types are toggled.
What you talkin' 'bout Willis?
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Okay, it's possible I'm misreading the OP, but it sounds like your tiefling is switching between darkvision and normal vision, as though by the flip of a switch. I.e., if he wants to see in the dark, he "turns on" darkvision, then if he wants to see further than 60ft, he switches to normal vision.
If that's not what was meant, then ignore my post. :P
think of the darkness as a barrier. If there is a wall in front of you you can't see through it. But you have a special ability to see through the Darkness. The light that is reflecting off the Elf cannot go through the wall (enter the area of Darkness) to reach the Tiefling's eyes so there is no way to see the elf b/c his ability to see light that CAN penetrate Darkness is limited to light that reflects off an object that is within 60ft.
Blackblooctroll is correct. Darkness in no way creates a visual barrier. It simply reduces the level of light in an area. If you andIare standing in separate areas looking to where the other should be, the lighting of where I am standing in doesn't impact whether or not I see you.
ok... so if the elf had the darkness hat, he could see the tiefling 65 feet away? but not the hat.
Yes. If I were standing in a dark room, I might not be able to see what I am holding, but if there is a window into a well lit room, I would be able to see anyone in there. Do you disagree that this case is true?
I think that it is worth asking here whether we are discussing Darkness or Deeper Darkness, seeing as the standard Darkness spell only drops the light by one category, and it cannot create an area of Magical Darkness.
The reason that would be important is that Magical Darkness blocks LoS, whereas normal Darkness does not.
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My understanding of the situation:
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From the elf's point of view:
If there is any darkness anywhere between the elf and the tiefling, the elf can't see the tiefling.
From the tiefling's point of view:
If there is darkness between them, and any portion of that darkness is further than 60ft from the tiefling, then the tiefling can't see the elf. Otherwise, he can.
Does that sound about right to everyone?
My understanding of the situation:
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From the elf's point of view:
If there is any darkness anywhere between the elf and the tiefling, the elf can't see the tiefling.From the tiefling's point of view:
If there is darkness between them, and any portion of that darkness is further than 60ft from the tiefling, then the tiefling can't see the elf. Otherwise, he can.Does that sound about right to everyone?
That depends on if the natural darkness is capable of blocking the "normal" sight of the tiefling.
If it is just uniform "dim light" that grants concealment through the entire stage (so to speak). Tiefling can see.
If there is a source of light providing "dim light" out to a certain range that influences whether or not the Tiefling can see the elf.
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Presuming an elf and a tiefling are on opposite ends of an 80 foot hallway that is filled with dim light (emitted from candles, perhaps). With the hallway lit in its entirety, both parties can see one another.
If the central 40 feet worth of candles were extinguished so that we now have 40 feet of darkness in between the elf and tiefling, I presume that the elf and tiefling would still be able to see each other; but, if there was a human and halfling in the middle if the extinguished candles, the elf could not see the either, but the tiefling could. The human and halfling, on the other hand, can see both the elf and the tiefling because the elf and tiefling are both standing within areas of illumination; though, the human and halfling would not be able to see each other, because they are both within an area of darkness.
Now, instead of the candles being extinguished, a darkness spell is cast in the same area. I would presume things to work the same as I described above.
Am I correct in my presumption?
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That depends on if the natural darkness is capable of blocking the "normal" sight of the tiefling.
I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make here. Within 60ft, a tiefling can see without light. Beyond that, he can see like anyone else. You make it sound like his right eye is like a human's and his left eye has darkvision but can't see beyond 60ft.
@nosig, if there is a barrier your take might make sense but there isn't, the magical darkness is irrelevent to the tiefling when it is less than their darkvision. For your take you seem to be equating darkness to a barrier which it isn't. You may not be able to see the details of what is between you and a village on fire 2 miles away, but you can see the fire in the middle of the night.
You have to remember to SEE something the light has to pass from that object to you. If you are standing in a dark alley and see someone illuminated by a street lamp, it's because the light from the street lamp is bouncing off the person and entering your eye.
A darkness spell, in an area of dim light, creates a magical aura that reduces the light levels in that 40ft circle down to zero. You can't get any darker than dark (magical darkness being MAGICAL). So if the area of the spell cancels out light, light cannot pass through it so light cannot bounce off the elf and hit your eyes.
THEREFORE>>>>>>
you cannot see with normal vision something that is outside of the darkness.
Think of it like X-ray vision. Unlike superman, X-ray vision does not allow you to see through things, it allows you to see a specific range in the spectrum of light that is usually invisible. With X-ray vision I can see X-rays, and it APPEARS to allow me to see through things because the wavelength of X-rays is small enough to pass through mass of low density. SO X-ray glasses would not allow you to see a woman's underwear, but her skeleton. If I were to look at a man in fullplate I would likely see the same thing you see: a guy in fulplate, b/c X-rays likely can't pass through a dense object like a sheet of metal.
Now Say I have X-ray vision and I am trying to see what is going on outside a window. Normally i would use normal vision to view what is going on outside. But what if you stand directly in front of me, or close the curtains? I can't see through you or the curtains with normal vision so I use my X-ray vision, which can easily pass through your low density flesh or even lower density curtains. BUT!!!!!!!! The normal visible light is still block by your fat belly, so the only light that gets to my eyes from outside are X-rays. So instead of seeing three boys playing baseball in red jerseys on green grass on a sunny day, I see three skeletons playing baseball on black grass on a black day.
So How does this apply in game? Just think of Darkvision in the same way, obviously you don't see skeletons, but Darkvision clearly sees something other than normal visible light, otherwise it would just be normal vision. So if normal light cannot penetrate a darkness spell to illuminate my Blue robe, it can't penetrate darkness to allow me to see someone out side of it, and since my visual sensitivity to this portion of the light spectrum that is usually invisible is limited to objects within 90 feet, I cannot see anything beyond 90ft. or 60ft or 120ft or WHATEVER.
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Sorry, this is a corner case dealing with the spell darkness and darkvision.
Here's the scene...
Forrest floor, natural lighting condition: Dim light.
Tiefling casts darkness on his hat, creating an area of darkness within 20' of him. He's ok though, as he has darkvision 60', so he can see the elf who is 55' away. The elf now moves 10 feet more away, for a total of 65 feet, just outside of the Tieflings darkvision. The question is:
Can the tiefling see the elf? He would have to use regular vision, as the elf is outside of the tieflings darkvision, and that is blocked by the darkness, right?
Thanks in advance for your replies!
Based on your original question, the tiefling can see the elf at 65 feet out using normal vision. I would say the Darkness spell does not block line of sight, so a character would not necessarily know there is a Darkness spell in place if there is natural darkness as well.
Deeper Darkness would block line of sight, based on how the spell says darkvision does not allow characters to see through it.
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Thought I'd go ahead and put this out there since everybody's talking about what they think darkness does but nobody is bothering to talk about what Paizo actually says it does.
With the original set up, if the Tiefling was replaced with a human rogue, then (it seems to me) that the human would be able to see out of the darkness and see the elf. and if the elf moved to 30 feet from the human (still 10 foot outside the darkness) then the human could use a ranged weapon and shot the elf - catching him flatfooted and getting his Sneak Attack dice. Is this correct?
What level is darkness? 2nd and is 1 minute/level.
What level is invisibility? 2nd and is 1 minute/level.It should probably be assumed that their approximate power levels should be close to equal.
With the original set up, if the Tiefling was replaced with a human rogue, then (it seems to me) that the human would be able to see out of the darkness and see the elf. and if the elf moved to 30 feet from the human (still 10 foot outside the darkness) then the human could use a ranged weapon and shot the elf - catching him flatfooted and getting his Sneak Attack dice. Is this correct?What level is darkness? 2nd and is 1 minute/level.
What level is invisibility? 2nd and is 1 minute/level.It should probably be assumed that their approximate power levels should be close to equal.
Best to not assume things when looking for a RAW answer. Not to mention the assumption would be a bad one. Darkness is an area of effect spell, it is inherently different than a single creature target spell. The spell you should be comparing it to is globe of invis that doesn't dispel, that sound like a 2nd level spell?
A human standing in the dark can see into a well lit area in the distance.
This is exactly the same thing. The tiefling, despite seeing through the dark, can see into the better lit area in the distance.
Why would darkvision suddenly be a hindrance?
The spell is not a "barrier" it merely effects the local lighting conditions.
Light and sight still function the same.
Globe of invisiblity that doesn't dispell? Ok, I guess for certain purposes.
As long as nobody who you are hiding from has darkvision, you can walk around in dim light without being seen. When you start attacking with ranged weapons, you may very well keep total concealment (bummer for your opponent!), but you are in dim light so if you don't have darkvision, your opponent has concealment, too, and you can't get any sneak attack damage.
Now, if you want to use darkness to get around without being stopped by guards or villagers or who/whatever and you choose darkness over invisibility, than you will give away your position (that shadow that keeps wandering around).
If you try to hide in the AOE of a darkness spell and it wasn't in an area of dim light remember that you are still visible.
In summary: invisibility is limited by its self dispelling quality, darkness is limited by its...well, effect. They are both very powerful (especially at 3rd level!) but both limited. That is to say, in this case, roughly equal in power.