Halpz Teh Poor N00B Wizard?

[DayneTheWickman]

xanthemann wrote:

Yes, at higher levels you would be able to cast a lot of 9th level spells, but there are two factors to take into account.

1. Spell components. They get costly at higher levels and rightly so. In my campaigns I don't normally concern myself with components or my players. We use component boxes, but they are only good for items of less than 1 gp in value.
2. Who would use 40 plus 9th level spells in a day? Seriously. With the components cost it is more 'economical' to cast the lower level spells.

Overpowering lower level spells.
pour more points into it and cast it as a higher level spell and double the effects. I believe there are meta magic feats to cover similar uses of spells. This method costs more points and if you are using the feat to do the same I would rule that it reduces the cost to normal. This way it still fits within the existing system, but gives you flexibility without the feat.

This is still a work in progress, but I think it has potential.

This is true. 9th level spells do cost a lot of money due to its requirements, but if you just slay a dragon or two you're set for quite some time with the hoards they have. The chances of this happening, luckily, are quite slim. So, to get around this, I could use let's say the level 2 spell fire breath. I say a few words, perform the hand gestures, eat a chili pepper and charge it with ooooh....let's say....70 extra points of magic along with the original 20 required to make it equal to a level 9.

Suddenly my first shot goes from 4d6 to about...let's say the attack die increase by this:

1/2[new spell level-original spell level]

So, I would add 1/2[9-2] die, because the new spell level is 9, the original is 2. Rounding down like a good little boy, I get a total of 3. So, let's save a couple magic points and just make it a level 8, because the extra 10 to make it a level 9 is just wasted anyway.

Now, I have a level 2 spell in my arsenal, I have the words and actions memorized, I have a chili pepper ready to be eaten (which is in my material box yes), and I've charged it up. Let the death begin, because I'm now dealing a whopping 7d6, 3d6 and 1d6 with each blast compared to the original 4d6, 2d6 and 1d6.

Now, I like math, so let's do a little analysis.

shot original dmg range new dmg range
1 4 - 24 7 - 42
2 2 - 12 3 - 18
3 1 - 6 1 - 6

Let's assume everything averages out yes?

shot original dmg avg new dmg avg
1 14 25
2 7 11
3 4 4

So on average, if I were to just level up my spell, I'd be dealing a whopping 13 extra points of fire damage each turn, and that's without factoring the chances of criticals. My max damage goes from 42 in the original (which is the same as the max damage on the first roll of the new damage level) to 66 in the new spell level. That's a difference of 24!

And when you charge a spell, it doesn't just have to be the damage that goes up, right? You could essentially charge anything such as its duration or how many shots you get, right?

This system right here has literally just put a level 5 on par with a level 15. The 15 might be able to last longer due to their magic pool, but at least the 5 can hit just as hard and if the 5 goes in prepared, i.e. plenty of magic pots, said 5 might be able to hold off the baddy long enough to let the barbarian swoop in and place a lance right between the eyes!

Dude, seriously, I'm going to start play testing this in one of my campaigns if you're cool with it. This system you came up with, is freaking awesome! :D

p.s. my table didn't turn out very good. If you manage to understand it, kudos! If not, I'll post a revised one here in a day or two. I spent what little spare time I had today making this post!

[A highly regarded expert]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'm quite glad you like my explanation!

I would shy away from "memory" as the metaphor, myself, although if you enjoy that then you should surely read Jack Vance's Dying Earth fiction, that's where it all started, the inspiration for all classic D&D magic. It works almost exactly as you described.

However, I dislike the memory metaphor — it doesn't fully describe the discharge of spells. Instead, I think of them like invisible bombs; in the morning you mix together the reagents and perform the various steps to create the bomb, and then you can carry it about indefinitely until you trigger it.

I actually picture spells as a discrete, glowing object, invisible to all without arcane sight (or detect magic, after the casting), and tangible only to the caster, who manipulates it through the somatic components. Indeed, greater arcane sight lets you see the spells someone else has prepared, hanging there on their aura, ready to be hurled into action.

Spellcasting is indeed a skill, but in this world, the knowledge is applied in the construction and storage of a spell. The actual casting is like knowledge of how to activate a bomb. Once cast, the spell is gone forever, and though you know how to create another, that takes a significant chunk of time.

Anyhow, you've taken the first steps to appreciating Pathfinder magic for what it is: it isn't a bad "simulation" of magic as it appears in most movies and fiction, it is a different (and vastly more specific) idea. And it is incredibly fun once you stop trying to make it something it isn't! I know, I've been there.

This is a good way to see it. I'd say "mental energy" or "magic energy" describes it better.

As a spellcaster levels, his mind becomes capable of harnessing more magic, through one (or even all) of the 3 mental stats. This power is visible to another magic user (it's back!) using their own magic to detect it, like with arcane sight, but your average muggle (and most other casters) wouldn't have the first clue what you're capable of, just looking at you (pointy hats, dashing good looks, or holy symbols notwithstanding).

[xanthemann]

You testing it out or even using it and modifying it is fine with me. I'm glad you like it. My concept was intended to help lower level characters to stand toe to toe with the higher level guys (just without the duration unless they had higher stats, so they have more 'raw magic'). This version mimics some of my favorite novels as far as magic goes. At least I think it does. I hope others do as well.

[waiph]

Not an original idea, but I read somewhere that spells are stored in metaphysical valences, and it takes a level of raw power and inteligence to use those valences.

As you go up in level, as a wizard, you are simply able to access valences capable of containing stronger magics. So you tie up magic within this metaphysical ring of energy within you. Go up in level, and you can access more of these rings and tie more energy into them.

But raw power only goes so far for a wizard. It takes a deep understanding of magic to tie even more spells within the same metaphysical area. With higher Int, you can tie in extra spells making more efficent use of the metaphysical space within where one prepares and holds theit magic. Hence bonus spells

It takes an hour to access these valences of power, and tie one's magic into them. A Lv1 wizard takes a whole hour to figure out a few cantrips and spells, and ready them, but a high level wizard can effortly weave such basic magics, and even prep the most powerful of spells in minutes due to practice. Hence hour prep time.

So you store power within, winding it into balls of magic, and you loose these knots when you cast.

[waiph]

For your actual problem, i'd say if you have Int, then EK is your best bet, and go wizard, that way you can prep spells that work without a decent caster level, and as you get better you can start tossing out more useful magic. Plus the arcane armor training helps too.

If you have cha as your best mental stat, you have a problem, cause you're a dwarf and it should be Wis that's good, but then go Sorc or oracle, if divine is available.

Otherwise i'd say with Wis, you can go Empryal sorc and use wis as your casting stat, or Cleric, which would be good in that you can haz healz (channel) and cast in armor, and have medium BAB, and access to all spells on the list so you don't worry about filling your spellbook.

What is your mental stat?

[3.5 Loyalist]

A fighter wizard can be pretty nifty, but you have got to know your sh*t and be a fighting man with a plan.

[xanthemann]

One good thing about mixing Wizard and Fighter, no matter how you do it, is you get to pick up some of those nifty feats like Arcane Strike to make any weapon a magic weapon.

[Sitri]

If you built a fighter, probably one of the worst things you could do to him is start taking levels of wizard as an afterthought, even if you are familiar with wizards. If you stated this guy out from the beginning to be a fighter wizard, you could probably make an OK character, but taking wizard from fighter as an afterthought is worse than worthless.

If the missus insist on you branching out a bit, you could move into barbarian easy and pick up some flashy looking energy stuff that looks like magic and it still works very well with what you do.

Second bet, moving into a rogue class and picking up some talents can let you do more things while still being decent at what you do.

If she absolutely insists that you need to use magic, pick up the Magnus, he is a fighter and an arcane caster. You lose BAB but you can get an extra attack and start casting some spells while attacking.

If she still insist you must be a wizard, lay the smack down :P

Actually, if your mental stats are too low you won't be capable of casting spells anyway. "Sorry babe, my INT is only 10 I can't cast a single damn wizard spell"

I personally would never take a level in wizard or sorcerer unless I planned to go full caster. The low level spells are pretty weak. Some are really good when you are low level, but lose effectiveness as you level. They are investment type classes, you lose out at the start but get more in the end.

[Sitri]

Aioran wrote:

This reminds me of a roguelike, I can't remember which though. The wiki had an awesome table with the base cost of a spell and then the cost of that spell with a given int value.

EDIT: Which is to say I approve of SP/PP limits to casters. Vancian is alright but it can be such a drag sometimes.

The second I learned psionics in 3.5 I never went back to arcane. This type of system just feels more like mana and how I think casters should operate in my head, in addition to the bonus of added flexibility.

.....now if only psionics were Society legal. I am finding myself in the arcane seat once again with all my characters.

[DayneTheWickman]

So, to update, I took that level in Wizard (because my Int is surprisingly high: a whopping 15!), and I'm KICKING 4$$!!!!

It's a lot nicer to have the proper frame of mind for arcane magic and after I explained it to my GM he admitted that he felt like a total idiot. I'm suddenly the arcane grab-bag that everyone turns to for help in tight spots! Plus, with my ability to swing an axe and shoot enemies with a crossbow makes me perfect for all around support now!

Also, my GM has agreed to try out the system proposed by xanthemann, and everyone is loving it. I did a quick battle with my GM against a level 10 necromancer just to see how well I could stand up to him with just 1 level in Wizard and stood up to him surprisingly well! However, the gap in power is still quite staggering and I lost. However, I'm certain that if I had a group of three or four low level arcane casters together against a high level caster, we could easily cream them!

Anyway, I'll post about how things are going here in a few days.

Red, out!