DayneTheWickman's page

SWEET!! This is going to work just fine and monsters/themes shouldn't be too difficult to come up with!

Thank you for the quick response and thanks for the resource! This will come in handy in the future with other campaigns as well...

As thanks I grant you with this token of gratitude from my clan the Sky Hammers! *Gives you a necklace with a pendent shaped as a hammer with wings and a star above it.* Should you wear it amongst my kin you shall be treated with hospitality and aid shall be given should you request it!

Been a while since I posted on the boards, so I decided to go ahead and post here until someone can muster up the right spell to send this thing to the right place.

I recently met a fellow dwarf at a tavern that is a seasoned adventurer and he joined my party the week after I met him. I admit though, he's rusty but full of advice, insight, knowledge and ideas. I mentioned to him a goal that I had and he decided to jump right in there with me, so it looks like these two dwarves are going drinking together and getting into trouble!

Long story short: we want to play EVERY core, base and psionic class (as well as maybe the ninja and samurai, but not anti-paladin) so as to expand our horizons. We have both played a good share of the classes, but we want to see what else is out there. As such we have decided to sit down and play each class from levels 1 to 20 in a simple dungeon crawl. Do we realize that this is going to take a while, be monotonous and that by the time we get done we'll be so sick of dungeon crawling we'll fight tooth and nail to avoid it? Yes. Do we still want to do it? Yes.

My question to all of you then is this: are there any FREE adventures available that would take us from 1 to 20 in a relatively short amount of time? If not...I'm going to need help designing a freaking tower full of monsters! Not to mention a way of randomly generating each encounter so we don't run into a rut of wash, rinse, repeat style tactics and/or way of thinking!

Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the Executioner is only 5 levels because the fact of the matter is, an executioner's job is a)EXTREMELY straight forward and b)not open to much advancement due to the fact that an executioner does one thing and does that one thing EXTREMELY well. If that's the case, making this into a condensed, yet well rewarding, 5 level pres-class makes sense to me.

Assume we use the 1/2 level progression (rounding up) meaning that the executioner would get +1, +1, +2, +2, +3 on their critical multipliers. With a scythe that boosts the critical to x7 upon reaching level 5. That's a fairly good hit no matter how you swing it. An average damage of 5 + 6 (2x a str mod of 3) = 11. This is a run-of-the mill scythe held in the hands of a level 5 executioner without applying any feats to the weapon. With the x7 critical upon a successful execution roll, that's 77 points of damage!

Going off of an above comment, a "well paid" executioner would be able to more "humanely" fell his victims. With the proper feats and gear, this prestige class would command respect and fear on the battlefield with its focused goal: decapitation.

So, we'll give the executioner the following class abilities at the following levels.
1) execution
2) style: flourish, inspiring, punishing
3) improved execution
4) style: bloodlust, invigorating, relentless
5) swift execution

execution: you can attempt an execution at a -5 as a full-round action against an enemy not exceeding one size category larger than you a number of times per day equal to your executioner level plus your strength modifier. The fort DC to reduce the execution to regular damage is 10 + executioner level + damage.

flourish: upon a successful execution, you may make an attack against a foe within your reach at a -4.

inspiring: upon a successful execution, nearby foes must make a will save of DC 15 or be shaken for d4 + executioner level turns and nearby allies gain a +2 morale bonus.

punishing: upon a failed execution attempt, you may apply one of the following conditions (bleed, blinded, confused, dazed, deafened, nauseated, sickened, staggered, stunned).

improved execution: same as execution, but at a -3.

bloodlust: upon a successful execution that kills your target, you may charge and attack the nearest enemy at a -4.

invigorating: upon a successful execution that kills your target, you gain 10 temporary hit points and regain 2d6+2 hit points.

relentless: you may attempt executions against enemies up to 2 size categories larger than you at a -4.

swift execution: same as improved execution, except you can attempt the execution as a move action at a -1.

It all sounds good to me! However, weapon focus and weapon specialization should still be requirements to get into the pres-class if you ask me, meaning at least level 8 in fighter (if I'm correct with last I checked).

Arazni, I'm liking what you're saying so far. I'll work off of what you've posted and post most likely sometime tomorrow with the rough draft.

Red is now a happy dwarf! He's going to have fun lobbing off heads and cleaving enemies in half with this new prestige class....bwahahahahah!!!!

However, I do see how 1/2 Executioner level as a bonus to critical attack damage could end up becoming overpowered (possibly). Let's say you take Executioner level 10. The bonus is +5, meaning that if I take a scythe I could then increase my critical damage to x9, which would make me SOOOOO happy!! Unless of course I misread what you've said.

@Goth Guru

Resurrection was possible, even if your soul was consumed. Your spirit just had to make a successful will save to escape the confines of the caster's aura in order to return to your body, albeit at that point with a number of negative levels equal to 1/3 the level of the caster minus your charisma modifier. These levels were able to be healed though at a rate of 1/week upon a successful knowledge (spirit) and heal check. Knowledge (spirit) was added as personal flavor, but knowledge (arcane) may also do the trick.

I like your ideas for adding riches and the Platinum and Violet (which is technically the color Purple). However, they're kind of already covered. Illusions fall under the category of gray magic, because illusions pertain to the mind (what it perceives) and spell resistance/reflection falls under yellow magic (warding away the magic from harming you). Invisibility falls either under gray or yellow, because you're making it so that the targets either a)cannot see you or b)warding yourself against light, effectively turning you invisible. The system tried to give multiple paths to solutions so that flexibility was possible. As for polymorphing and alteration of the body, that falls under brown magic, because it allows you to alter matter itself, including your own body.

However, if I did add platinum...I'd have to think about what exactly it would do. Also, I would change purple to violet for cosmetics, because let's face facts, what sounds cooler? Purple magic, or Violet magic?

If you have any other cool ideas or suggestions just drop them on me. I'll consider what you've said and I just might alter the system a little. After all, I'm a tweaker and I'm constantly tweaking systems!

This is me making a reservation for posting later as to what my idea is. The great irony as that I'm about to go to bed! Lol!

Anyway, I'll come back tomorrow and definitely add in my idea that I've been working on. Ciao for now!

I've been working on two magic systems lately and the one is fully fleshed out and working, however the second one is kind of kicking my beard...

The first one is a chromatic-metallic system where each style of magic is based on a color/metal. The kinds of magic are (starting with the chromatic):

red - magic that weakens and damages targets
blue - magic that bolsters and heals targets
yellow - magic that wards target
green - magic that influences plants and animals
orange - magic that influences spirits
purple - magic of divination and gathering of information
black - magic of power of death, chaos, evil and darkness
white - magic of power of life, law, good and light
gray - magic of influence of the mind and illusions
brown - magic of altering of the physical world
copper - gift of nimbleness, accuracy and luck
brass - gift of force, strength and ferocity
bronze - gift of knowledge and understanding
iron - gift of courage, invulnerability and tenacity
silver - gift of guile, charm and wit
gold - gift of wisdom, foresight and harmony

This system was nicknamed Soul Magic by my old game group and it required that the caster either a)form a contract with a magical being through diplomacy or force to use/improve one of the magical realms, or b)consume the soul of a fallen enemy (hence the popular nickname Soul Magic) to power the magic realms they wished to use.

This made a lot of sense because we played in a world where magic was acquired through the forming of contracts with magical beings and the consumption of souls. Due to the fact that magical beings were hunted and killed however, and the fact that the consumption of souls was heavily frowned upon (and punishable by death), magic users were shunned and often hunted down and killed. Clerics, Inquisitors and Paladins were exceptions because they gained their magic through extensive rituals, ceremonies and prayers to deities.

Magical beings gained magic through feeding off of the life-force of the cosmos. Example: a unicorn would typically live near a pool of water with reeds surrounding it. By drinking from the water at night (the water being fully exposed to the moon) the unicorn absorbed the power of the moon. The reeds that fed on the water would be eaten by the unicorn during the day to maintain its magical stores, because the moon's power would be stored in the reeds. A unicorn's power would also wax and wane according to the phase of the moon.

Magic in this world was very much centered around the interaction of the cosmos and the planes of existence. Spell casters that weren't part of the church were either loners that lived far away from civilization or kept their powers secret within their own homes.

Also, the power of a spell caster usually fluctuated depending on two factors: how many contracts they had with magical beings (the strength of the magical being, thus the strength of the contract, factored in as well in this part of the equation) and how many souls they currently had stored within themselves. At any one moment, a spell caster's power may increase or decrease depending on how much power they expend or absorb through their daily lives. Higher powered spells required more contracts and more souls, while lower powered spells required fewer contracts and fewer souls. The number of spells you could cast per day was based on how many each contract gave you and how many souls were expended with each spell. I.e. a spell that damaged a target for d6 damage may cost one soul or one level 1 slot from a contract, whereas a spell that could level a castle may cost upwards of 20 souls or possibly two level-9 slots from your contract(s).

Souls were like short-term investments and contracts were long-term. Souls lasted until you used the magical points you gained from them and could be gained rather quickly (short on souls to use, kill a few people and consume the ectoplasm). Each soul you consumed gave you a number of soul points to spend on spells. The number of soul points each soul gave you was equal to the CR of the creature the soul came from. If you absorbed the soul of a CR 5 monster, you gained 5 soul points to spend. If you absorbed 8 souls from CR 1/8 monsters, you gained 1 soul point to spend. The number of soul points spent to cast a spell were equal to the level of the spell. A level 5 spell would require 5 soul points to cast. You may think that this is ridiculously overpowered because after a few battles you'd be set on souls, right? Wrong. Each soul got a will save equal to 10 + it's CR + it's charisma modifier - the charisma modifier of the caster. If it failed, it was absorbed. If it succeeded, no soul for the caster!

Contracts on the other hand lasted for a long time and were made with three components. 1)Power level of the contract (this included the number of slots the contract contained and at what level those slots were), 2)conditions (what was required from both parties to maintain the contract and for how long it would last before needing to be renewed or simply becoming void), and 3)cost of the contract in order for it to be maintained and the cost of what would be lost should one of the parties break the contract before it reached the end of its term (i.e. a person may have to let a demon live in their left eye and if either were to break the contract they would become blind permanently with no way of regaining their lost vision.)

The level of a contract was equal to the CR of the magical being and the number of slots/power level increased at a steady rate according to a simple formula. Spell/day of given level = CR of monster - spell level + 2. According to this formula, a CR 5 monster gave you:

2 level-5 slots, 3 level-4 slots, 4 level-3 slots, 5 level-2 slots and 6 level-1 slots.

However, if you made a contract with another CR 5 monster you didn't get to double your available spell slots. Every consecutive contract at level 5 or lower only gave you a +1 to spells/day at the spell levels available according the CR of the monster. I.e. a contract with a CR 4 monster only yields a +1 level-4 slot, +1 level-3 slot, +1 level-2 slot and +1 level-1 slot.

Also, forming a contract with a stronger being reduces the previous contract to the simple +1 bonus. If I formed a contract with a CR 6 monster, I'd have:

2 level-6 slots, 3 level-5 slots, 4 level-4 slots, 5 level-3 slots, 6 level-2 slots and 7 level-1 slots.

The CR 5 contract from earlier now only gives me a +1 level-5 slot, +1 level-4 slot, +1 level-3 slot, +1 level-2 slot and +1 level-1 slot.

The number of spells known were also unlimited, so long as you had enough room in your tome, or enough tomes, to carry all the spells. Also, preparing a spell ahead of time allowed you to cast the spell as a standard action. However, you were also capable of looking up the desired spell, preparing it and casting it in a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell. After it was prepared, it could be cast immediately the next turn as a standard action or stored away for later use using another full round action. Although preparing spells in combat was possible, it wasn't advised or practical (until we entered into some longer, drawn out and epic-sized battles that required such actions just to survive).

So, that's the first system of magic. It's my personal favorite when it comes to magic and if I could use it every time I played pathfinder I totally would! Unfortunately, it really hasn't caught on yet with other players, and I fear it never will. Le sigh. :/

I guess that's the end of my first (official) post in the insomnia thread! :D

In that case I'm going to go ahead and lay claim to the rogue!

I'll get started on it!

Wow...I got a lot more responses than I expected. I did take in what everyone said and I agree with two things.

One: Skyrim is a sissy game with slap fights for combat and executions as a way to make the player say, "woah! this game is so unique and awesome!" when I can describe even more epic, and less redundant, kills as the DM.

Two: I think that making this a prestige class called the Executioner would be farging epic, making such maneuvers a little less accessible and far less likely to be used on the PCs as well. I admit, I DM campaigns where everyone brings two or three spare characters with them every time we sit down, so we're used to seeing death left and right. However, for a more toned-down play style where characters are expected to last three or four game sessions before being so much as threatened with death, a prestige class may be the better option than a combat maneuver.

So how about it? Anyone have any suggestions for turning this into a prestige class? And please, keep giving me input. I'm actively taking notes on everything being said and constantly tweaking the things I work on.

This is me making a reservation for posting later as to what my idea is. The great irony as that I'm about to go to bed! Lol!

Anyway, I'll come back tomorrow and definitely add in my idea that I've been working on. Ciao for now!

Oh! Oh! I want to help! I want to help! Plus, I have a game group that can test it on a regular basis!

May I join? Please? Pretty please?

If so, just tell me what you need me to get started on and I'll get started! I have TONS of free time to dedicate to this!

Ever since my room mate finally bought Skyrim last month he's been doing nothing but talking my ear off as to how amazing it is. However, that's not what this post is about. It's about something I saw the other day as he was playing that caught my eye.

Executions.

It got me thinking...

In a real battle I, Red the Dwarf, may very easily decapitate someone in a single mighty blow! Now, in combat I roll to see if I hit and then I roll for damage if I do. If I manage to hit with a critical, I do up to x3 damage, depending on which weapon I have out. Sure this makes for a mighty hit in a lot of cases, but with a lot of the creatures I'm being thrown up against, I have to swing my axe or sword quite a few times before the enemy finally falls dead. If I want to kill them in one shot I have to first get them into the "helpless" state and then use a coup de grace, which even then doesn't guarantee a one hit kill!

Sure there are rules out there for this and I'm probably just reinventing a wheel that someone else already crafted, probably on a roll of 27 or so, but if not I want to offer up my take on all this.

Thus I have invented the patented, 100% awesome, Red Execution Combat Maneuver!!!

It's simple really. Once per combat I can ask the GM if I can attempt to use an execution against my current target, so as to represent the possibility of a really lucky hit striking true to the heart or their head suddenly leaping from their shoulders in a spectacular spray of blood. This is how it would work:

While within melee range of my target, I roll for a combat maneuver against the target. Naturally, they get a combat maneuver defense roll. Upon the target successfully rolling their CMD, my execution is a wasted flop. However, if they fail their CMD, then the fun begins!!!

They then have to roll fort DC 15, just like they would in a coup de grace situation. If they succeed, my attack does normal damage as if it were a normal melee attack. However, if they fail their fort save, I get to decapitate them in a shower of hot, sticky blood!!!

But...what if I manage to do this to say, I don't know...a dragon? I just happen to roll a successful execution against a full health dragon and kill them in one turn. Totally epic? Absolutely!!! Totally unrealistic? Unfortunately...yea... :( no auto-killing dragons today bub!

So, here's how I think the execution system can be balanced out.

1) You can only attempt this maneuver against opponents no larger than one size category larger than you.
2) The target with more health is harder to attempt an execute against.
3) You have to purchase the feat "Combat Maneuver: Execution."
Let's discuss these a little further shall we?

Size Categories

With every single combat maneuver, the limitation ultimately comes down to one thing: size. Despite the age-old saying that "size doesn't matter," it really does. Sorry guys, but it's true!

If I'm a medium dwarf I can bull rush a large ogre, but not a huge sea serpent. Logically this also means that I should be able to execute an ogre in one blow, but not a sea serpent. This helps simulate the fact that it takes a lot more than just knowing where to hit and how to hit along with a little luck to kill larger enemies because the fact of the matter is, there's more to hit and less damage done/square foot to the overall beasty!

If I can't even trip a huge crab, why should I be able to kill it in one mighty blow?

Health

Let's face facts here: the chances of executing an orc that's fresh out of the gates is pretty low because they've got a TON of fight in them and they're probably actively dodging and blocking everything you're throwing at them! You're not going to just saunter on up to a spry warrior and take off their head or rip out their heart without them wanting to say something about it! You have to wear them down first so as to increase your chances of success! Maybe that little bit of sweat in their eyes or that cut along their back gives you just that much of an opening to plunge your sword straight into their heart and drop them dead right before your feet in one fell swoop!

Someone that has been beaten down a bit is going to be much easier to execute than someone that's still fresh. So, to show this, if the target of the execution has 100% health left, the execution is done at a -10. If the target has 90% health left, the execution is done at a -9. However, if the target has 91% of its health left, the attempt is still made at a -10. Only upon actually reaching 90, 80, 70, etc. percent does the penalty actually drop. Anything above 50% is going to have a minimum of -6.

This shouldn't be too hard to keep track of with today's modern calculators, so GMs should be able to handle this little bit of number tracking.

Execution Feats

The final requirement to attempting executions in combat is simple: you have to purchase the feat. This simulates the fact that typically speaking, only seasoned warriors know where to hit and how to hit in order to take down an enemy in a single blow. Someone that just picked up a sword for the first time and is going into battle as green as a leaf on a seedling, they're not going to be capable of such a combat maneuver. They're simply going to be swinging the sword around like crazy and hoping that they make it out of battle alive. Yet a truly seasoned warrior will be much more efficient at decapitations than your every day warrior. This gives the option of multiple execution feats.

Let's go over them.

1) Combat Maneuver: Execution - the player may attempt an execution 1/combat against a target no more than one size category larger than themselves. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Upon a successful hit, the target rolls a fort DC 15. If the target succeeds, the attack is rolled as if it were a normal melee attack. If the target fails, it is killed instantly. Nearby enemies that see this are demoralized by -2 and nearby allies of the player gain +2 moral.

2) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Improved - same as Combat Maneuver: Execution, except the maneuver may be attempted 2/combat at a +2. Demoralized enemies are at -2 and allies gain +4 moral. Demoralized enemies must roll a will DC 15 or be shaken for d4+1 rounds.

3) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Greater - same as Combat Maneuver: Execution, except the maneuver may be attempted 3/combat at a +4. Demoralized enemies are at -4 and allies gain +6 moral. Demoralized enemies must roll a will DC 15 or be frightened for d6+2 rounds. If they succeed, the enemy is only shaken for d4+1 rounds.

4) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Flourish - upon a successful execution, the player may make an immediate attack against another target within melee range at a -2.

5) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Inspiring - upon a successful execution you may change the condition that nearby enemies take and you may add an extra +2 to your allies' moral bonus. (Conditions you can choose are: cowering, frightened, nauseated, panicked, sickened, stunned)

6) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Punishing - upon a failed execution, the player may instead apply one of the following conditions on the target along with the damage rolled. Conditions: bleed, blinded, confused, dazed, deafened, nauseated, sickened, staggered, stunned.

7) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Bloodlust - upon a successful execution, the player may immediately rush the nearest enemy and attempt to attack them at a -2 to attack and defense until the player's next turn.

8) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Invigorating - upon a successful execution, the player revels in the blood of their victim and feels a temporary replenishment in their vigor. Gain 10 temporary hit points and regain 2d6+2 health.

9) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Relentless - may attempt executions against targets up to two size categories larger than you.

10) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Overpowering - upon a failed execution attempt, roll for critical damage against the target.

11) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Impact - upon a failed execution attempt, the player may move the target up to 5 feet/5 points of damage in any direction in front of the player or the player may knock the target prone.

12) Combat Maneuver: Execution, Penetrating - upon a failed execution attempt, the damage rolled by the player automatically bypasses all armor of the target.

Side Notes

One thing that I do believe should be a requirement for attempted executions is having proficiency in the weapon being used and possibly the feats weapon focus and weapon specialization.

Please feel free to comment and give me your two cents. After all, I'm only one dwarf with one mind and the more that give me feedback the more I can hone this down to something that just might be worth our time!

"Through years of studying the world around him, the Imitator has learned the ability to mimic the abilities of creatures to such a degree that they can physically alter their body to resemble the creature being mimicked. Some are even rumored to be capable of full transformations into creatures and even into other people."

I would call the class the Imitator and I would center their abilities around studying the world around them (this includes people, animals, plants and outsiders) and being able to imitate them to the point of even physically altering their bodies to become more like, or even flat out become, the subject of their study.

I would give them bonuses to disguise when imitating others, the ability to study things and learn about them, the ability to utilize multiple alterations at one time, a bonus to handle animal, a bonus to knowledge: nature, and the ability to use the abilities of things such as the poison of plants.

They should only be capable of morphing their bodies for certain periods of time and the further from their original form and the more things they associate into their morphed state, i.e. the poison of a plant along with the talons of an eagle and the legs of a cheetah, the shorter time they can spend in that morphed state. a human can sustain the look of another human for a long time, while a human maintaining a hybrid of an elephant, dolphin, crow, wasp and rose bush would only be capable of holding it for a short period of time.

I would give the class 3/4 BAB progression, good fortitude saves, poor reflex saves and good will saves.

That's my two cents so far. Ultimately though it's your class and it's up to you as to what you do and don't want in it. However, I will admit, this has spiked my interest and I may end up play testing this once you have it all fleshed out....

I'm going to build a party using the following combos that I rolled according to how Mikaze organized the classes:

11,3 - wizard/cleric
19,15 - gunslinger/oracle
15,20 - oracle/ninja
8,18 - ranger/magus
12,16 - alchemist/summoner

Personally, I'm really liking this! I might play a fluff-laden campaign with me as the GM and characters just for fun at this point!

The wizard/cleric is really looking interesting! Someone that can use arcane magic, has a familiar, can use divine magic, can channel energy and has domains? Sounds like a helluva ton of fun! Can't wait to see how I explain that back story!

Then the gunslinger/oracle. For some reason I get the image of a gunslinger with bandages over his eyes, firing rounds from his flintlocks and hitting targets effortlessly at incredible distances, each bullet seeming to literally fall into the path that the target is walking along! Seeing into the future and knowing where your target will be? Sounds nice! That's just a little fluff though...for now...

Oracle/ninjas!!! Oh noes!!! An order of oracles dedicated to carrying out the divine orders of a deity attempting to maintain balance in the world? The whole "divine assassins" is sort of cliché, yes, but if done properly a good cliché is an amazing original idea! Might be able to work on it a bit and add a little middle eastern fluff on how the character is designed, give them tattoos over their eyes and possibly make them the worshipper of one of the zodiac animals for flavor. Don't know yet.

Ranger/magus. The thought is flawless. A young woman that lives off of the land and hunts down those that would attempt harming her self-designated home as well as being the student to an ageless magus that lives in a hut and teaches her how to use her innate arcane abilities and mix them into her way of fighting, while still allowing her to harness the latent divine magics of being a ranger. Kind of a more combat oriented version of the wizard/cleric above!

And last but not least...the alchemist/summoner. This one makes my gut twist. The possibility of someone having the ability to both create all sorts of potions, mutagens and bombs that would give them awesome powers as well as being capable of summoning an eidolon, among many scary monsters, makes me tremble! Plus, the summoner has the ability to prepare arcane spells, and the alchemist can store spells in bottles! Ever run out of prepared spells for the day? No problem! Just drink this up and fireball your enemies away!

Ganymede425, you have just given myself and my game group HOURS of wonderful entertainment! Not to mention you've given me some awesome ideas for some pathfinder based writings!

I'll flesh out these characters and post what I have so far in a couple days! :D

Similar to what happened to me in one campaign.

One of the players basically got shot in the heart and died instantly. No one tried to save them with healing and no one had the ability, or funds, to cast a resurrection on the player to bring them back. This was at a time however BEFORE I knew about hero points, so I used a technique my group calls "purple smoke" to keep the player alive.

After the combat was finished the other players found the dead player's body inexplicably missing. After three in-game days, this is what happened according to what our scribe recorded:

GM: You suddenly awaken in a small, round room that is dim, lit only by a fire in the very center of the room. Although the walls are made of a black mud, everything is very neat and orderly. The fire is built up with perfectly placed pieces of fire wood, the bed you are lying in is made from fresh furs that are layered over you very neatly and hanging above your head is a nearly perfectly symmetrical collection of bones hanging on a string.
Player: I sit up.
GM: You sit up with some effort and pain, noticing that it causes you to begin breathing hard just by doing this action. You also notice that you are entirely naked with the exception of bandages over your chest.

From there the player found that a small humanoid saved them from death, but the player had a -4 to con for quite some time until they were able to have the wound fully healed. They also had trouble sleeping due to nightmares of the arrow hitting them and they couldn't go near bows/crossbows without having to roll willpower to resist feeling fear, and they had a -2. This persisted until they got some mental help. It also took them a game week to locate their party and a game month to join back up with them.

With the hero point system I would have said that their spirit somehow tenaciously held onto their body and allowed them to live at a two point cost, but at the penalties of a -4 to con and -2 when around bows/crossbows as well as having nightmares (which ultimately leads to lack of sleep, which means more penalties could stack up without proper rest).

Then again my pathfinder games do find a lot of inspiration in the GURPS advantages/disadvantages system as well as having a heavy psychological thriller element to it.

Ultimately it depends on the setting as to the details, but the basic gist is that unless the player deserves the death (charging into hand-to-hand combat with a CR 40), the death is epic (they take an arrow to the hearth while defending their entire party from certain doom), or the death is completely unavoidable (falling 1000 ft without any way of slowing down or cushioning the fall to survivable levels), then the player should be given some sort of chance to keep going. That's my rule at least. Unfortunately the players usually only get one "purple smoke" per campaign and the rest of the deaths must be avoided in some way by the players or the player has to be brought back to life.

Ultimately though, yes, you made the correct choice. However, you should warn the player that next time such an action is taken, they may not come back at all. If they do, it'll be at a 2 hero point cost to them AND a 2 point hero cost from another party member to attempt reviving them, and that the player will incur penalties such as con damage or negative levels. If they're going to rely on cheating death with hero points and the such, make them pay for it MORE each time that player dies under circumstances that allows them to live.

Just my two cents though. It's up to you in the end. :)

This...is freaking amazing. It applies to the exact problem my current game group is having right now.

We're currently a group of four hammers, zero anvils and zero arms. We find that most encounters are done and over fast because we strike hard. Unfortunately, upon taking damage we have no way of refilling that vital resource (with the exception of my ice troll's regen 5 and the fact the GM has been forgiving enough not to hit me with fire or acid...yet) and no way of keeping the enemy where we want them. A common occurrence is my ice troll tank, Tooth, rushing into combat and hitting for as much damage as possible every turn, but often getting surrounded by enemies and taking massive amounts of damage in return when the enemy should be lucky enough to score a hit. We then have two spell casters that focus on dishing out as much damage/spell as possible and no ability to cast healing spells or control spells, meaning that if their spells don't get the job done and they get past me, the casters are now useless because of a lack of melee attack power and the inability to get out of the situation. Then there's the assassin. Perfect at using stealth to sneak up on enemies and hit them for a ton of sneak attack damage, but if they don't kill or cripple the enemy on one blow they're stuck in hand-to-hand and end up taking massive damage before finally killing the target.

After two encounters we're scrounging for anything health related and praying for good heal skill rolls. I finally decided to take a caster level to try and add some healing, but now I'm more often then not stuck with the job of keeping everyone alive instead of tanking, which ultimately causes combat to last longer and causes me to lose most of my resources after a single encounter!

My old game group had two anvils (one dedicated and the other a primary anvil, secondary hammer), two arms (both primary arms, one a secondary anvil and the other a secondary hammer), and three hammers (one dedicated [me] and the other two were primary hammers with secondary anvil and arm, respectively). Although we were a slightly larger party with a few intricacies, our game play was essentially the basics you covered. Our anvils would lockdown or slow the enemies from far away, our arms would begin prepping the hammers for war and the hammers would move in for the kill. Once the anvils were done, one would begin sending damage down range with their longbow. If the arms had no more buffing to do, one would switch to keeping the enemies on their toes while the other sent damage downrange with their musket. Then the tanks would obviously keep hitting, but if needed one could lockdown/slow enemies and the other could reapply buffs/replenish health as needed.

Our GM saw this and sent well organized enemy hordes at us with similar builds, thus our combats usually lasted around 10 rounds instead of the average of 3-5 (which I still see as too fast), and required us to make tactical decisions throughout the encounter, as well as putting up with the enemies having tactical advantages they could pull out of their sleeves and watching them make similar tactical reactions. Fighting was very dynamic and often kept us on the edges of our seats.

Maybe I can reapply this to my campaign this weekend with my current game group. After all, I'm the GM this time around and have been looking for a way to mix up combat! >:D

Love the post. It's going to my "favorites" and I'll be coming back to it! Also, I thought the anvil/hammer/arm analogy was brilliant! I'll be using that too!

Much thanks for the post!

~Red the Dwarf, who is currently enjoying a very tall flagon of mead!

Or you can just keep going up levels by using the patterns each class has...but that's only if you have a functioning brain and can figure it out of course...

I've taken characters all the way up to level 40 before by following the pre-set pattern with levelling up. It's not that hard.

However, if you want a little extra fun, might I recommend simply adding other classes to what you already have? Figuring out the amount of exp required to go up the next level is simple really.

exp for current lvl + 1/2 exp for current lvl = exp for next lvl

That's what I always did with my group.

So, to update, I took that level in Wizard (because my Int is surprisingly high: a whopping 15!), and I'm KICKING 4$$!!!!

It's a lot nicer to have the proper frame of mind for arcane magic and after I explained it to my GM he admitted that he felt like a total idiot. I'm suddenly the arcane grab-bag that everyone turns to for help in tight spots! Plus, with my ability to swing an axe and shoot enemies with a crossbow makes me perfect for all around support now!

Also, my GM has agreed to try out the system proposed by xanthemann, and everyone is loving it. I did a quick battle with my GM against a level 10 necromancer just to see how well I could stand up to him with just 1 level in Wizard and stood up to him surprisingly well! However, the gap in power is still quite staggering and I lost. However, I'm certain that if I had a group of three or four low level arcane casters together against a high level caster, we could easily cream them!

Anyway, I'll post about how things are going here in a few days.

Red, out!

Yes, at higher levels you would be able to cast a lot of 9th level spells, but there are two factors to take into account.

1. Spell components. They get costly at higher levels and rightly so. In my campaigns I don't normally concern myself with components or my players. We use component boxes, but they are only good for items of less than 1 gp in value.
2. Who would use 40 plus 9th level spells in a day? Seriously. With the components cost it is more 'economical' to cast the lower level spells.

Overpowering lower level spells.
pour more points into it and cast it as a higher level spell and double the effects. I believe there are meta magic feats to cover similar uses of spells. This method costs more points and if you are using the feat to do the same I would rule that it reduces the cost to normal. This way it still fits within the existing system, but gives you flexibility without the feat.

This is still a work in progress, but I think it has potential.

This is true. 9th level spells do cost a lot of money due to its requirements, but if you just slay a dragon or two you're set for quite some time with the hoards they have. The chances of this happening, luckily, are quite slim. So, to get around this, I could use let's say the level 2 spell fire breath. I say a few words, perform the hand gestures, eat a chili pepper and charge it with ooooh....let's say....70 extra points of magic along with the original 20 required to make it equal to a level 9.

Suddenly my first shot goes from 4d6 to about...let's say the attack die increase by this:

1/2[new spell level-original spell level]

So, I would add 1/2[9-2] die, because the new spell level is 9, the original is 2. Rounding down like a good little boy, I get a total of 3. So, let's save a couple magic points and just make it a level 8, because the extra 10 to make it a level 9 is just wasted anyway.

Now, I have a level 2 spell in my arsenal, I have the words and actions memorized, I have a chili pepper ready to be eaten (which is in my material box yes), and I've charged it up. Let the death begin, because I'm now dealing a whopping 7d6, 3d6 and 1d6 with each blast compared to the original 4d6, 2d6 and 1d6.

Now, I like math, so let's do a little analysis.

shot original dmg range new dmg range
1 4 - 24 7 - 42
2 2 - 12 3 - 18
3 1 - 6 1 - 6

Let's assume everything averages out yes?

shot original dmg avg new dmg avg
1 14 25
2 7 11
3 4 4

So on average, if I were to just level up my spell, I'd be dealing a whopping 13 extra points of fire damage each turn, and that's without factoring the chances of criticals. My max damage goes from 42 in the original (which is the same as the max damage on the first roll of the new damage level) to 66 in the new spell level. That's a difference of 24!

And when you charge a spell, it doesn't just have to be the damage that goes up, right? You could essentially charge anything such as its duration or how many shots you get, right?

This system right here has literally just put a level 5 on par with a level 15. The 15 might be able to last longer due to their magic pool, but at least the 5 can hit just as hard and if the 5 goes in prepared, i.e. plenty of magic pots, said 5 might be able to hold off the baddy long enough to let the barbarian swoop in and place a lance right between the eyes!

Dude, seriously, I'm going to start play testing this in one of my campaigns if you're cool with it. This system you came up with, is freaking awesome! :D

p.s. my table didn't turn out very good. If you manage to understand it, kudos! If not, I'll post a revised one here in a day or two. I spent what little spare time I had today making this post!

Okay, I know the Matrix is an awful movie, but...

You know how it must feel to walk around with a long coat concealing all the many instruments of death that you have strapped to your person?

Consider that a "spell" in Pathfinder is not a skill. It's not like Harry Potter where you learn the words and motions and if you have the mental discipline *bam* you've got a spell. No.

In Pathfinder, the skill is developing the personal power to hold spells, which are distinct intangible objects that you carry around on your person like loaded weapons. The normals around you just see a guy in a robe, but you know that at any moment you could separate the very bonds that hold the atoms of their flesh together. Before doing that, you make a mental check. Hanging there, on your aura, are three such spells. You can disintegrate exactly three human beings (or monsters...). You don't need to pretend that these spells are a skill, or come up with any rationale as to why your disintegrates are all gone but you can still cast more powerful spells... it doesn't matter. That's not what spells are. No need to roleplay that.

It isn't a system that models a real world concept, so it isn't really possible to model that concept badly. Just differently. Let go of the idea that spells should work like knowledge, and start imagining the metaphysics of a world where spells work like ammunition.

Now, upthread you described lower level martial characters owning full casters. This flies in the face of the conventional wisdom about full casters. You have a choice: you can deny the conventional wisdom, and keep playing with an intense skepticism about full casters OR you can play a caster intelligently and be the first in your gaming group to utterly rock.

I hated "Vancian" magic for decades, but I have learned to love it. You just need to accept it on its own terms, and you'll find that it is actually a consistent, flavorful alternative to skill-based magic systems (which I...

Okay, first of all, the Matrix was at least decent. It had potential until someone killed it.

Secondly.....OH MY GOD THAT MAKES EVERYTHING TOTALLY MAKE SENSE NOW!!!! I'd almost compare it to mathematical formulas. I have within my math binder every mathematical formula known to man, but I only take the time to memorize a couple of them because they're the ones I'll expect to need that day. Each day, I memorize the formulas I need and forget the ones I don't. When I need one I haven't memorized, I can check my binder. MAGIC IS JUST LIKE MATH!!!! The skill isn't the spell/formula, it's the ability to use it and understand it! Example: a level-1 Wizard is like a student that's learning basic math, while a level-20 has a master's degree in mathematics and does calculus in base-8 for fun! :D Also, to explain why you lose the ability to use certain levels of spells after utilizing them is like this: after doing a certain amount of math you begin to feel mental fatigue. Even if you love it you can only handle so much computing at any one time.

You seriously just made my day dude!

I think I have a working formula for magic points now, if you wish to give it a try and let me know how it goes.

Mp (Magic points)= [Ability Score (Intelligence for Wizard) x Con (Constitution score)]1/2 level + Hit points

So, Int 20 x Con 18 = 360
360 x 1/2 level (say 20th)= 360 x 10 = 3600
3600 + hit points (80 from Con bonus + 160 max from dice) 240= 3840
The cost of using all the spells (not including bonus spells) is 3600, if each level of spell costs 10 points (so a 9th level spell is 90 points)
The points for the bonus spells should take care of themselves due to them both depending on your stats.

This works well at with high attributes, like anything else. With this in mind, you may not be able to make full use of the normal number of spells per level if your stats are not high enough, but that would reflect how capable one is with magic. The lame explanation that it is...for now.

I like where you're going with this. However, my concern is how many magic points you're dealing out to people. With the maximum you just gave me, I could easily cast up to 42 level-9 spells. That seems a tad bit overpowered. How could you either a)tone it down or b)put in a limitation of some sort?

Also, you mentioned over-powering lower level spells. Mind giving me a few extra details on what you mean?

to xanthemann: I might try the Words of Power and see how that goes. Also, if you do continue working on that magic system keep me updated. I'm liking the way it sounds! If you need someone to play test it and give feed back I'm 100% willing!

to Fionnabahir: I need to be the wizard because everyone else has already chosen second classes (our GM has a two class cap this time around) and I happen to be the one that the NPC wizard wants to teach. Besides, without a level in wizard the campaign can't progress any further and we lose to a horrible lord of terror! That and I really don't mind, I've been wanting to dabble in magic anyway.

to Pan: I myself see the use of the spells and understand the magic system to a degree, however one thing that does get on my nerves (as well as everyone else) is, as a matter of fact, the book keeping. Having to prepare all the spells and figure out which ones you want that day can be a real pain. Plus, lower level wizards seem to run out of spells at some of the most critical moments. MOST CRITICAL. The spells/day limitation also peeves my GM because he feels that if you know a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you want to, but he also finds that doing that makes casters SUPER overpowered and he's not sure how to limit it. Not to mention he sees 99% of all the spells as a waste and useless.

Although I do like the discussion and I love the suggestions I'm getting, I think everyone is missing the spirit of this thread.

Curly hates using magic because of all the different spells and the limitations and I'm agreeing with her. Unfortunately, we NEED a wizard for an upcoming campaign, and I'm the ONLY candidate right now. Not to mention my GM absolutely DETESTS magic in PF!

I need someone to either a)defend the current magic system and explain why it's so amazing or b)give the reasons why it should be shot in the head and replaced with something else, and if it's going to be replaced, what should it be replaced with? However, I will also accept suggestions like the one xanthemann gave for tweaking the system.

I hate to say it, but when you get down to it the magic system in PF is quite confusing to a lot of players and is more of a broken shovel than a good tool!

I personally have thought that spells should be modified by the spell casters base stat much like the to hit and damage of a fighter and his chosen weapon. It isn't much of a change. but every little bit helps.

Would you please elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand what you mean but it sounds...awesome!

All i'm going to say is that your 15th level wizards are being played very, very badly...

Then how should they be played? You seem like a knowledgeable casty!

And maybe you can defend the current magic system in PF as well?

The magic system isn't so bad, but I am sure it could use a little tweaking. As for fighter types needing magic levels...when you hit 6th level as a fighter, with the proper feats, you can craft magic weapons or armor to take the place of casters.

Or maybe a lot of tweaking. We need to put the magic system on lyrium dust or something. Then during its tweak sessions it will get better.

Please don't kill me for referencing a different game.

DayneTheWickman wrote:

So instead of going casty, Red should go barbie?

Er...um...that didn't come out right...

BARBARIAN AM GREATEST CLASS. IF POSSIBLE, CONSIDER RETRAINING; TRADE ALL FIGHTY LEVELS FOR BARBARIAN LEVELS.

DWARF AM OK FIGHTY THOUGH, AM HAVING ABILITY TO TAKE SPELL SUNDER AS FEET INSTEAD OF RAGE POWER. BUT NOT AS GOOD BECAUSE LIMIT ON USES AND STANDARD ACTION. BUT STILL GOOD, BECAUSE SPELL SUNDER.

EITHER WAY, MAYBE TALK WITH LADYFRIEND, CONVINCE THAT DWARF AM NOT SO BAD AS FIGHTY PERSON? SEEMS LIKE COMMUNICATION PROBLEM TO BARBARIAN.

MAYBE NOT TALK MORE THAN 50 SECONDS, THOUGH. MIGHT END BADLY.

Maybe I should just take the barbarian instead of the wizard. Then I get a fighter-barbarian!!! :D

But, sticking with the theme of this thread...can you please find a casty to explain this stuff to me? Or at least explain how the magic system can be changed to be easier and maybe a little less...well...sucky?

Honestly, I've seen level 5 fighters and barbarians rip level 15 wizards and mages in half. Literally. It's a beautiful sight to behold.

So obviously, magic needs improvement somewhere!

Besides, you are already a wizard!

One word: SWEEEET!!!!

BARBARIAN AM OCCASIONALLY PICKING BRAINS OF CASTYS WHO AM NOT SEEMING TO HAVE GREAT PROBLEM WITH MAGIC.

CASTY BRAINS KEEP BEING STUCK IN BARBARIAN LANCE GROOVES AFTER HIT IN HEAD WITH LANCE. AM MILDLY ANNOYING TO BE PICKING.

MORE INPORTANTLY, MOST SYSTEMS AM NEEDING TO BE BALANCED SOMEHOW. IN CASE OF PATHFINDER, BALANCE AM GENERALLY PLACED BY PUTTING LIMITS ON NUMBER OF SPELLS.

BARBARIAN DOES RECOMMEND NOT MIX FIGHTY LEVELS WITH CASTY LEVELS. CASTY LEVEL AM GOD OR SOMETHING, OTHERWISE CASTY AM SUPER GIMPED, NOT EVEN HAVE CHANCE WHEN NEED CAST SPELL ON THING THAT AM TRYING RAGELANCEPOUNCE. NOT THAT CASTY HAVE CHANCE ANYWAY, BUT FULL CASTY LEVEL AM AT LEAST SPORTING.

So instead of going casty, Red should go barbie?

Er...um...that didn't come out right...

Curly is the misses. If I don't do what the misses says, I don't get my ale and potatoes.

She thinks it will be good for me to try more than just hacking body parts off of the poor beasties. Besides, I can see the use of magic.

Example: I'm drunk. Again. Curly decides to be clever and place my ale across the room. I can't stand up to go get it. So what do I do? Mage Hand! :D

Okay, seriously guys? What is it with this magic stuff? Things were great as a fighter until now. All I had to do was swing my axe and shoot a couple bolts from my crossbow. Then all of a sudden: BAM!! My little hobbit-rogue friend, Curly, told me I had to take a level in wizard if we wanted to survive in this Odin-forsaken land!

I'm a dwarf-fighter named Red, and I'm in desperate need of help with this magic stuff. I mean, come on! Selecting spells every day? Limitations on how many you can cast before needing to rest? And most of these spells I'm looking at pretty much SUCK until you get into the higher levels! This means my level-1 wizard I'm taking is only going to keep me from gaining more awesome fighter abilities! Which kind of peeves me off!

Am I the only one peeved at the magic system in PF, or am I ignorant to its subtle and fine-tuned workings?

So, it's up to you Paizoans! Either defend the current magic system being used and explain its ever-so-subtle and fine-tuned workings or give me your reasons as to why it should be changed! And if you decide it needs to be changed, then give me an alternate way of casting magic as well!

This magic stuff is cramping my axe swinging style darnit!