Ok, I'm up for a challenge. Level 10 no gear party. And by "no gear", I mean NOTHING that has a gp/sp/cp value. Just to kick this up to the EXTREME! :)
So, clubs are fair game. Slings that launch rocks from the ground are fair game. Sling bullets are not fair game. Witch gets their familiar for free, so that is fair game. Familiar for basically anyone else is not. Spellbook is not. Material components are not (they have no listed price, but that's because the game assumes you have a component pouch that *does*), but one feat fixes that.
Now then, other than the insane item restriction, I am going for optimization. Goal is for the party to handle level appropriate challenges, except perhaps for enemies that basically force a party to rely on magic items to deal with. Even then, ideally spells can overcome all.
I still think that a barbarian would be a great front-line slugger in a game like this, backed up by your witch and oracle for magic support. The key is the claws from beast totem, and all the hp; barbarians have a poor armor class anyway, so he doesn't lose as much by having no armor.
At level 10, you get greater beast token, so you have two attacks of 1d8 each with no weapon at all, and you can charge in and pounce.
The only hard part is getting to level 4 with no weapon (since you can first get your lesser beast token and your claws at level 4) and being effective if you run out of rage points. I guess you carry a club; at level 1 barbarian with a 1d6 club and wearing animal skins still can deal out enough damage and has enough hitpoints to kill most 1 HD creatures on his own and survive. He is going to be less effective at level 3, but by level 4 he's good again, so this is probably doable.
Improved unarmed strike is the answer :-)
Improved unarmed strike is the answer :-)Ok, I'm up for a challenge. Level 10 no gear party. And by "no gear", I mean NOTHING that has a gp/sp/cp value. Just to kick this up to the EXTREME! :)
So, clubs are fair game. Slings that launch rocks from the ground are fair game. Sling bullets are not fair game. Witch gets their familiar for free, so that is fair game. Familiar for basically anyone else is not. Spellbook is not. Material components are not (they have no listed price, but that's because the game assumes you have a component pouch that *does*), but one feat fixes that.
Now then, other than the insane item restriction, I am going for optimization. Goal is for the party to handle level appropriate challenges, except perhaps for enemies that basically force a party to rely on magic items to deal with. Even then, ideally spells can overcome all.
I still think that a barbarian would be a great front-line slugger in a game like this, backed up by your witch and oracle for magic support. The key is the claws from beast totem, and all the hp; barbarians have a poor armor class anyway, so he doesn't lose as much by having no armor.
At level 10, you get greater beast token, so you have two attacks of 1d8 each with no weapon at all, and you can charge in and pounce.
The only hard part is getting to level 4 with no weapon (since you can first get your lesser beast token and your claws at level 4) and being effective if you run out of rage points. I guess you carry a club; at level 1 barbarian with a 1d6 club and wearing animal skins still can deal out enough damage and has enough hitpoints to kill most 1 HD creatures on his own and survive. He is going to be less effective at level 3, but by level 4 he's good again, so this is probably doable.
Or a half orc with a bite attack.
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Ok, I'm up for a challenge. Level 10 no gear party. And by "no gear", I mean NOTHING that has a gp/sp/cp value. Just to kick this up to the EXTREME! :)
So, clubs are fair game. Slings that launch rocks from the ground are fair game. Sling bullets are not fair game. Witch gets their familiar for free, so that is fair game. Familiar for basically anyone else is not. Spellbook is not. Material components are not (they have no listed price, but that's because the game assumes you have a component pouch that *does*), but one feat fixes that.
Now then, other than the insane item restriction, I am going for optimization. Goal is for the party to handle level appropriate challenges, except perhaps for enemies that basically force a party to rely on magic items to deal with. Even then, ideally spells can overcome all.
Which of the following should I make for the party, and how large should the party size be? I'm pre-selecting race-class combo to make this process quicker.
The options I am willing to try and stat out:
- Elf Witch (considering Beast Bonded for infinite Magic Jar abuse)
- Half-Elf Oracle (abusing Paragon Surge, of course)
Human Sorceror (any ideal archetype for this? I was sorely tempted to just make another half-elf paragon surge abuser like the oracle...)
- Half-Elf Wildcaller Synthesist
- Fetchling Archaeologist Bard
- Tiefling Bladebound Magus (it's the most "fighter"-y class I think could make it; Bladebound is for the freebee weapon)
- Samsaran Menhir Savant Druid (abusing Mystic Past Life, of course)
Can't wait. 8D
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The following is a level 20 build for summoner that can literally fight butt naked with out any items.
Race: Half Elf
Class: Summoner (Synthesist Archetype)
Stats: Str = 10
Dex = 10
Con = 17 with racial modifier
Int = 13
Wis = 14
Cha = 14
when leveling add 3 to con and 2 to cha
take the Half Elf Favored Class Option for Summoner
Eidolon's base form Aquatic
Powers obtained via Eidolon = -Fast Healing x4
-Natural Armor x5
-Limbs x3
-Claws x3
-All 5 immunities
Feats = -Extra Evolution x5
-Toughness
-Dodge
-Combat Expertise
-Combat Reflexes
-Resilient Eidolon
this build with no items magical or other wise gives the following statistics at lv 20 when infused with your Eidolon:
Heath = 320 with out Eidolon and 485 when fused with it
Immunity to all damage excluding force, physical, positive and negative
Fast Healing 4
7 attacks a round at full bab each (15)
AC = 51 with out Combat Expertise and 56 with Combat Expertise
Self Healing via Class spell list
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This thread has somehow gone remarkably far without any note of the least gear-dependent build in the game: the bomb-throwing alchemist. You're attacking touch AC, so accuracy and items that improve it are of negligible importance. Magic armor is nice (because of your short range increment), but you can do without it. All your saves but Will are decent, and you can shore up that defect with extracts. There are dozens of small wondrous items that can help you out, but nothing that's anywhere near required.
All you need to make an extremely effective Alchemist is a 25gp Alchemist's Kit.
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@ Illeist the only problem with a bomb thrower alchemist though is it has a limited number of bombs then its god for nothing. The summoner on the other hand is aslong as its fused with its Eidolon, which he can heal easily, literally needs nothing. The only thing stopping it is that it will get tired after a full day of combat with out rest which i think can be taken care of with Undead Appearance.
Ok, I'm up for a challenge. Level 10 no gear party. And by "no gear", I mean NOTHING that has a gp/sp/cp value. Just to kick this up to the EXTREME! :)
So, clubs are fair game. Slings that launch rocks from the ground are fair game. Sling bullets are not fair game. Witch gets their familiar for free, so that is fair game. Familiar for basically anyone else is not. Spellbook is not. Material components are not (they have no listed price, but that's because the game assumes you have a component pouch that *does*), but one feat fixes that.
Now then, other than the insane item restriction, I am going for optimization. Goal is for the party to handle level appropriate challenges, except perhaps for enemies that basically force a party to rely on magic items to deal with. Even then, ideally spells can overcome all.
Which of the following should I make for the party, and how large should the party size be? I'm pre-selecting race-class combo to make this process quicker.
The options I am willing to try and stat out:
- Elf Witch (considering Beast Bonded for infinite Magic Jar abuse)
- Half-Elf Oracle (abusing Paragon Surge, of course)
Human Sorceror (any ideal archetype for this? I was sorely tempted to just make another half-elf paragon surge abuser like the oracle...)
- Half-Elf Wildcaller Synthesist
- Fetchling Archaeologist Bard
- Tiefling Bladebound Magus (it's the most "fighter"-y class I think could make it; Bladebound is for the freebee weapon)
- Samsaran Menhir Savant Druid (abusing Mystic Past Life, of course)Should I assume leadership feat is banned?
On a related note, if said party is allowed to consort with a hag, even just long enough to form a coven... Bladebound Hexblade Magus / Witch (any kind) / Accursed bloodline Sorcerer trio would be an interesting theme party...
Have you tried it yet?
There is no denying that anyone without magic will have a hard time dealing with incorporeal creatures. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any non-magical solutions. There may be some, but it's early and I don't feel like digging around for them.I am not convinced (even with the one build that filled the criteria) that casters in general are less gear dependent than non-casters. I would like to see more characters that are less cheesy (taking spells from other classes is cheesy but did meet the goals). I would love to see a more standard build pull it off.
I have one (multiclassing one though), but no magic (psionics)
Vitalist 2/Monk2 (master of Many style/Quigong) /Vitalist 4/ Monk 2Using synergy between Vitalist and Monk is the idea.
Race: Psionic Duergar
(HP as per PFSP Max level 1 + HD 1/2 +1 Con Mod. HD D6=4 D8=5 D10=6 D12=7)
Hp: 76
Str 15 (+1 level =16) Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 16 (+1 level=17) Cha 5.
AC: 18 (10+3 Wis + 1 Dodge + 2 Dex + 1 NA +1 Monk), can be raised to 20 by Animal Affinity power.
Saves: +12/ +8/ +12
Unarmed Strike: Hit + 10/+10 (BAB 6, 3 Str) (1d8+4+ 9 steal health, Disruptive Touch DC 13 [fail Fort save, staggered 3 rounds])
Or
+2 Unarm Strike: Hit +12/+12 (1d8+6+9 hp, disruptive Touch, see above)
Masterwork Heavy Crossbow Hit +8 (1d10, 19-20/x2)
Steal Health (Touch attack): Hit +9/+9 (9 hp)
Initiative: +2
Special: Evasion, fuse Style, Stunning Fist 5/day DC 18 (stun or fatigue foe), Transfer Touch: 2d6, grant target 6 temp hp for 3 rds, 6/day, Health Sense, Guardian Method, Trade Slow fall for Barkskin
Knacks: at will, Toughen add 1 NA with a touch for 1 minute (included in AC)
Invigorate: 1 temp hp for 1 minute
Disruptive Touch: DC 13 For save, fail staggered 3 rounds
Feat:
Dodge, Bonus: Psionic Talent (2), Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte, 5th-Dragon Style , 7th-WF: Unarmed, 9th-Expanded Power: Metaphysical weapon (+2 enhancement, hr/level, cost 5 PP)
PP: Base 35 +11 bonus =46 PP/day
Powers:
1st: Vigor, Natural Healing, Biofeedback
2nd: Animal Affinity
3rd:Empathic Transfer, Hostile
This is old, but since the thread was necro'd and I read it for the first time, I have to comment on the fighter posted on the first page. Specifically:
Melee Masterwork Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+20/17-20/x2)
Unfortunately for this build, you cannot use Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, and Deadly Aim all on the same attack. This damage calculation is just flat-out wrong.
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Ok so first I didnt read all the posts but here are my thoughts on this.
For gera dependent toons the only classes I think can break that idea are ones that have scaling damage (e.g snk atk, spells) so classes like ninja, rogue and spell casters have the best chances for going for the least amount of enhanced items.
Personally I think if I had to make a no magical item toon from 1 to 20 it would be a halfling sorcerer.
AC boost from size all be it a small boost(see what i did there) magic scales its damage so I can stay competitive against other creatures.
stats I would put all 20 pts into my caster stat maybe dropping all but con down to max out that one stat.
This is old, but since the thread was necro'd and I read it for the first time, I have to comment on the fighter posted on the first page. Specifically:
Melee Masterwork Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+20/17-20/x2)Unfortunately for this build, you cannot use Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, and Deadly Aim all on the same attack. This damage calculation is just flat-out wrong.
When I posted that, I didn't realize that Hero Lab put the Power Attack and Deadly Aim damage into the same attack if I turned it on. Since then I have figured this out and it's changed how I post builds but I can't go back and fix things.
The point was, and still is, that no character can actually be non-gear dependent and still be able to do what people claim. They all need gear to be able to deal with level appropriate challenges. I tire of reading that casters don't need gear then I read about DCs that are so high that you can only get them with stat enhancing items or how they can just use scrolls or wands. I still don't believe that any character would be fun or even playable in a campaign without appropriate gear.
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Well I don't think spell casters are the only classes can go gear less, but I think that they can have a easier time surviving. Case and point being that there spells can still scale to lvl. A fighter with a dagger at level 1 is only a d4 plus str. At level 10 same fighter same dagger still d4 plus str with maybe a plus here or there from class features.
Now a spell caster with magic missile starts 1d4 the at 10 same spell now is 4d4 with caster bonus damage scales. I still think that gear is needed to optimize casters almost as much as martial classes but I do feel spell casters have a better chance of survival.
You can always tool a encounter to do a TPK.
This thread originally stemmed from constant arguments that included casters who pretty much had whatever spell needed because they can put utility spells on scroll and wands then the poster was also claiming that the caster wasn't gear dependent. They would talk about DCs that require a stat of 26 or better for a mid level character and would say that they got that with a simple headband while claiming that the character wasn't gear dependent. They would claim that the caster can just craft whatever items they need and then claim that they aren't gear dependent.
All characters are gear dependent. They just use their gear differently. Both need their gear and I have still not seen any character that could survive a "standard" campaign without it. I have seen very creative players but still not seen characters that are meant for long term gaming that are not dependent on their gear in some way.
I play in a game that starts at level 4. Progression is slow, so most characters don't make it past level 6 before dying horribly. Startng gold is...150gp. No gunslingers, samurai or ninjas. No eastern weapons or armor. 20 point buy. Magic items are hard to come by, regardless of the game situation.
These things being said, I have great interest in this thread.
In this game, some characters I've seen that have excelled before being inevitably murdered by the GM:
Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist
Master Summoner
Zen Archer Monk
Undead Lord Cleric
Synthesist Summoner
Low gear dependency, big damage numbers, decent survivability/damage avoidance/mitigation.
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So this is what I came up with
Sorcerer halfling
Str 5
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 12
Cha 22
Bloodline is Abyssal
Feats
Spell focus conjuration
Augment summon
Dodge
Improved init
Expanded arcana 7th lvl +2 2nd level spells
Expanded arcana 9th +2 3rd level spells
The two abilitie ups go to main stat your spell list would be equal parts conjugation and range spells dam rebuff and such. You summon creatures of a fiend nature and with the bonuses from abyssal they also get DR/good
I have seen many people claim that some classes are gear dependent while others are not. I would like to see this put to the test. I would like to see some non-gear dependent builds for casters.
These are the criteria:
1) 20 point buy (the game assumes 15 but I will concede that many use 20)
2) The character must be able to survive at all levels below it's build. If you build a 10th level druid, show it at some lower levels too so we can see that it can survive.
3) No magical gear. Spellbooks are ok, swords are ok, etc. Blessed Books and +1 longswords are not. This also means no crafting because then you would have magical gear. I know that means that some classes won't be using class features but them's the breaks. The claim is that those classes aren't gear dependent.
4) The build must be able to contribute meaningful (whatever that means) to four appropriate challenges a day without rest. You can go for fewer or more if you adjust the amount of resources you think you should use.I would like to see builds for each class if possible. A variety of levels and racial options is also welcome.
To me this isn't what a gear dependent build means.
A gear dependent build is when you need something specific to function. The best example I can some up is a dex to damage build. You NEED a scimitar or you NEED the agile enchant.
It can also come into play when you have something that gets a key item to really become good. Say a Holy Avenger or my favorite (*sarcasm*) '+5 Mithril Celestrial Full Plate!'
I have seen many people claim that some classes are gear dependent while others are not. I would like to see this put to the test. I would like to see some non-gear dependent builds for casters.
These are the criteria:
1) 20 point buy (the game assumes 15 but I will concede that many use 20)
2) The character must be able to survive at all levels below it's build. If you build a 10th level druid, show it at some lower levels too so we can see that it can survive.
3) No magical gear. Spellbooks are ok, swords are ok, etc. Blessed Books and +1 longswords are not. This also means no crafting because then you would have magical gear. I know that means that some classes won't be using class features but them's the breaks. The claim is that those classes aren't gear dependent.
4) The build must be able to contribute meaningful (whatever that means) to four appropriate challenges a day without rest. You can go for fewer or more if you adjust the amount of resources you think you should use.I would like to see builds for each class if possible. A variety of levels and racial options is also welcome.
To me this isn't what a gear dependent build means.
A gear dependent build is when you need something specific to function. The best example I can some up is a dex to damage build. You NEED a scimitar or you NEED the agile enchant.
It can also come into play when you have something that gets a key item to really become good. Say a Holy Avenger or my favorite (*sarcasm*) '+5 Mithril Celestrial Full Plate!'
So a caster that needs a headband of +X to stat and a bunch of scrolls to function isn't gear dependent? Isn't that gear? How is it different?
A specific build might be too dependent on specific gear but that isn't the argument that was being made. The argument is that martials are gear dependent and casters are not. That's the whole argument. It's not that some builds are more gear dependent than others (which I completely agree with 100%). There are people who say that casters are less gear dependent but I don't see that either. I can see where they are coming from but I disagree with their assessment. Casters generally need a wider variety of gear and non-casters generally need more focused gear but that isn't the same thing as being less/more gear dependent.
I have seen many people claim that some classes are gear dependent while others are not. I would like to see this put to the test. I would like to see some non-gear dependent builds for casters.
These are the criteria:
1) 20 point buy (the game assumes 15 but I will concede that many use 20)
2) The character must be able to survive at all levels below it's build. If you build a 10th level druid, show it at some lower levels too so we can see that it can survive.
3) No magical gear. Spellbooks are ok, swords are ok, etc. Blessed Books and +1 longswords are not. This also means no crafting because then you would have magical gear. I know that means that some classes won't be using class features but them's the breaks. The claim is that those classes aren't gear dependent.
4) The build must be able to contribute meaningful (whatever that means) to four appropriate challenges a day without rest. You can go for fewer or more if you adjust the amount of resources you think you should use.I would like to see builds for each class if possible. A variety of levels and racial options is also welcome.
To me this isn't what a gear dependent build means.
A gear dependent build is when you need something specific to function. The best example I can some up is a dex to damage build. You NEED a scimitar or you NEED the agile enchant.
It can also come into play when you have something that gets a key item to really become good. Say a Holy Avenger or my favorite (*sarcasm*) '+5 Mithril Celestrial Full Plate!'
So a caster that needs a headband of +X to stat and a bunch of scrolls to function isn't gear dependent? Isn't that gear? How is it different?
A specific build might be too dependent on specific gear but that isn't the argument that was being made. The argument is that martials are gear dependent and casters are not. That's the whole argument. It's not that some builds are more gear dependent than others (which I completely agree with...
If a caster needed a headband to cast appropriate level spells then they would definitely be gear dependent. Which depending on the build is possible. Take a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer. If they start with 12 charisma with the assumption that they will get a headband then they are gear dependent. A more typical build with 17-18 int or charisma would not be gear dependent. Scrolls are useful but rarely required, if for some reason scrolls were NEEDED then they would be gear dependent. If someone needed a weapon, that isn't gear dependence. If they need a +1 agile, keen weapon then that would be gear dependence.
That's how I interpret it. Your mileage may vary.
Is a martial more dependent on gear in general? I'd say that it depends, if they are both essentially naked then yeah the caster will likely be better off (unless the martial uses unarmed strikes - ex. a monk). If we can assume they have a baseline of non-magical gear, weapons, and armor then it depends on what you are fighting, with prehaps a small edge given towards casters. It's unlikely that either would survive a fight against your typical CR appropriate dragon since they would have lowish ACs, saves, damage and DCs. If the campaign was less creature oriented and more humanoid vs humanoid than both casters or martials could be fine since the weaknesses would be similar on both sides.