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Part of the Monk flurry of blows states: A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows
Zen archer has
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
Does this mean you can trip with zen archer's flurry?
No.
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
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"No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon"A bow falls under the incantatory of any weapon.
FAQ indicates a weapon can be used without the trip property.
The actual rules from Trip still indicate melee weapons only.
"No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon"A bow falls under the incantatory of any weapon.
FAQ indicates a weapon can be used without the trip property.
The actual rules from Trip still indicate melee weapons only.
A bow used in melee sounds a lot like an improvised weapon; does an improvised weapon count as a melee weapon?
The actual rules from Trip still indicate melee weapons only.Then you must be reading a different set of rules then I.
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.Only reference is made to a melee attack, not a melee weapon.
So following that logic, if one is able to make an improvised attack with a bow, then they can trip with a bow
Which would be using a ranged weapon as an improvised "melee" weapon? Maybe it is a reading comprehension "thing."
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Which would be using a ranged weapon as an improvised "melee" weapon? Maybe it is a reading comprehension "thing."
For the sake of argument can you quote the rule that says an improvised weapon cannot be used to make a Trip attempt?
While I'm not convinced that a Zen Archer should be wasting his time trying to trip foes while using his bow as an improvised weapon, I don't think it's the 'Trip' rules that prohibit it... There may be rules specific to the Zen Archer (like Axl referenced) that prohibit such a thing however...
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Which would be using a ranged weapon as an improvised "melee" weapon? Maybe it is a reading comprehension "thing."For the sake of argument can you quote the rule that says an improvised weapon cannot be used to make a Trip attempt?
While I'm not convinced that a Zen Archer should be wasting his time trying to trip foes while using his bow as an improvised weapon, I don't think it's the 'Trip' rules that prohibit it... There may be rules specific to the Zen Archer (like Axl referenced) that prohibit such a thing however...
If the bow is being used as an improvised weapon instead of a bow, can a Zen Archer even use it with his flurry? I just ask because he wouldn't be able to flurry with any other improvised weapon, so just because his long flexible stick was a bow when used one way, does he automatically gain the ability to use it as part of a flurry even if it's no longer being used as a bow?
Also, as Axl mentioned above:"The zen archer "may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks". Therefore he cannot "substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows"."
I'm sure he could use the bow as an improvised weapon to trip, I don't believe he could do so in conjunction with Flurry.
Which would be using a ranged weapon as an improvised "melee" weapon? Maybe it is a reading comprehension "thing."For the sake of argument can you quote the rule that says an improvised weapon cannot be used to make a Trip attempt?
While I'm not convinced that a Zen Archer should be wasting his time trying to trip foes while using his bow as an improvised weapon, I don't think it's the 'Trip' rules that prohibit it... There may be rules specific to the Zen Archer (like Axl referenced) that prohibit such a thing however...
Either read the spoiler above where they copied/pasted Trip or read Trip. The TRIP ability states melee attack. If you are using your bow to make ranged attacks you are failing to make a melee attack and so are unable replace the attack to trip. You can use any weapon you want to attempt a trip as per the FAQ, if the weapon is making a ranged attack you are unable to use the Trip attack as per the CM write up. Unless you are using the bow as an improvised weapon to make a melee attack, trip is off-limits.
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If the bow is being used as an improvised weapon instead of a bow, can a Zen Archer even use it with his flurry? I just ask because he wouldn't be able to flurry with any other improvised weapon, so just because his long flexible stick was a bow when used one way, does he automatically gain the ability to use it as part of a flurry even if it's no longer being used as a bow?
The PRD states:
"Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.
A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
Now note that it says the ZA can only FoB when using a bow. It does not mention that when exclusively using a bow with a range attack the monk can FOB. If one argues that using the bow as an improvised melee attack satisfies "using a bow" in the FoB rules, It follows that the ZA can make improvised attacks while FoB. If he can make improvised attacks, he can make trip attempts as per the normal monk rules during a FoB
I just question whether a bow counts as a bow when it is being used as an improvised weapon instead of a bow. At that point it's just a stick with string. I'm sure it can be argued either way, but I certainly wouldn't allow a fighter who decided to flip his longsword around, grab it by the blade, and use the hilt as a hammer to gain the benefit of his sword-specific feats and abilities with it.
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Either read the spoiler above where they copied/pasted Trip or read Trip. The TRIP ability states melee attack. If you are using your bow to make ranged attacks you are failing to make a melee attack and so are unable replace the attack to trip. You can use any weapon you want to attempt a trip as per the FAQ, if the weapon is making a ranged attack you are unable to use the Trip attack as per the CM write up. Unless you are using the bow as an improvised weapon to make a melee attack, trip is off-limits.Which would be using a ranged weapon as an improvised "melee" weapon? Maybe it is a reading comprehension "thing."For the sake of argument can you quote the rule that says an improvised weapon cannot be used to make a Trip attempt?
While I'm not convinced that a Zen Archer should be wasting his time trying to trip foes while using his bow as an improvised weapon, I don't think it's the 'Trip' rules that prohibit it... There may be rules specific to the Zen Archer (like Axl referenced) that prohibit such a thing however...
You're jumping to incorrect conclusions. Nobody is asserting that the Zen Archer is making ranged attacks. We're talking about using a bow as an improvised weapon to make melee attacks. So I guess it is a reading comprehension "thing".
Again please cite the rule that says you cannot make a melee attack with an improvised weapon to make a trip attempt.
To be clear I'm not arguing that this allowable - I just don't think it's prohibited by the rule you think it is.
I was never questioning using the bow (improperly aka improvised, to make melee attacks) disallowed trip attacks. I stated RAW, you are incapable of using the bow (as in properly) to trip.
When someone says "using the bow" it doesn't mean the same as "using the bow in an improvised manner." Is it nitpicky? Absolutely, but in regards to RAW, we need to be that way.
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Question for the ones stating that the improvised bow is still a bow...
If the bow has the "flaming" property, and you use it for improvised attacks, do you add the flaming damage?
How about the ranger with weapon focus (longbow), does he gain the +1 on attack rolls when attacking with the bow as an improvised melee weapon?
How about improved critical (longbow), does it make the improvised melee bow have a crit range of 19-20?
If you allow the ZA to FoB in melee with the bow, you must also allow other weapon related feats and abilities to work when the weapon is used improvised (like throwing the longsword at someone).
Great if you want to allow it, but just make sure that you are good with allowing it all the way, rather then just granting the monk extra.
I would love to take a shield character and use Shield Slam for a ranged bull rush by treating my shield as an improvised weapon and chucking it at someone (ranged shield bash), plus I would still gain the bonus to AC!
(please note, I am mostly being silly, but I have had players try to ask stuff like this) .
There is an archetype for the Fighter that allows you to trip people using the bows ranged attack but that is after a couple levels into the class... It is called the Archer I believe that APG or UC brought it in and it is an interesting archetype however other than tripping arrows I dont think that you can trip with the bow unless the class specifically says that you can (I believe later in ZA you can but I have not read the class in a while)
If the bow has the "flaming" property, and you use it for improvised attacks, do you add the flaming damage?
At the bottom of the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities it states, "2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So in answer to your question, no, you do not add the flaming damage when attacking with the bow in melee combat.
How about the ranger with weapon focus (longbow), does he gain the +1 on attack rolls when attacking with the bow as an improvised melee weapon?
Weapon Focus says, "Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon." So in answer to your question, yes, you do gain the +1 on attack rolls when attacking with the bow as the feat does not specify that it must only be when using the weapon in ranged or in melee.
How about improved critical (longbow), does it make the improvised melee bow have a crit range of 19-20?
Improved Critical says, "Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled." So in answer to your question, yes, it does increase the threat range as the feat does not specify that it has to be used in ranged or in melee.
If you allow the ZA to FoB in melee with the bow, you must also allow other weapon related feats and abilities to work when the weapon is used improvised (like throwing the longsword at someone).
Great if you want to allow it, but just make sure that you are good with allowing it all the way, rather then just granting the monk extra.
I disagree. They are not mutually exclusive. This is not an all or nothing scenario. I pointed out where the feats that you asked about work and the weapon ability did not.
I would love to take a shield character and use Shield Slam for a ranged bull rush by treating my shield as an improvised weapon and chucking it at someone (ranged shield bash), plus I would still gain the bonus to AC!
I assume that you mean by use of the Equipment Trick feat to allow you to throw the shield as an improvised weapon? It allows you to, "Hurl Shield (Throw Anything): You can throw your shield as a ranged improvised weapon. You must be holding (not wearing) your shield to perform this trick. If you are using a throwing shield, there is no reason to use this trick." And since a shield being "held" and not "worn" does not grant you it's shield bonus to AC, then this is not allowable.
I suppose the other option would be to use a Throwing Shield but the same logic applies there. If it is not "worn" but rather "held" then you do not get the bonus from it. Same is true for if it is not on your person at all; like after you threw it.
(please note, I am mostly being silly, but I have had players try to ask stuff like this)
I know that you are being silly. But I think you were doing it to try to prove some point about your questions relating to what is being discussed here. While I know you meant for people to just take your questions as rhetorical questions meant to show how flurrying with a bow in melee seems silly to you I am doing the opposite. There are clear rules made for each of the questions you asked.
This is a question in a rules forum about how the rules of the game are written. The rules I quoted to answer the questions you gave show how to rule in these situations. Just like with the Zen Archer it says that the attacks have to be made with the bow it does not state that the attacks have to be made with ranged attacks with that bow. Now you could try to point out that "...well, clearly the INTENT was to only allow it to work with ranged attacks." But that would then be a discussion about RAI (Rules as Intended) rather than RAW (Rules as Written), wouldn't it? And while you might believe that the intention of the developers was to only allow it to work with ranged attacks you have no proof of that. Neither do I when I think that the developers meant for it to work with bow attacks regardless of whether it was ranged or melee as if they didn't they would have specified like they did in the rules I posted above.
But what we DO know is what the RAW states. And by RAW, it says attacks made with the bow. It does not specify that it has to be ranged attacks made with the bow.
This does not mean he can trip with the bow as FoB clearly states this can be done only with unarmed strikes or special Monk weapons for which the bow does not qualify.
Also, this answer isn't meant to be directed at Happler specifically. I'm just using his question to give a way to respond to the other sentiment I have seen shared in this thread.
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Just throwing the shield as an improvised range weapon. But since it is still a shield the shield slam feat still gives me a bull rush. After all, nothing in the RAW about using the shield to bash states that I have to be wearing it:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.[/qute]
and shield slam states:
Shield Slam (Combat)
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
If a weapon used in an improvised way (melee thrown or ranged weapon used in melee) counts as using the weapon for class skill and feats for one class (Zen Archer) then it should count for all classes.
The other question is how does this effect the monk of the empty hand?
I do not disagree with your assessment. I believe that you could throw a shield and benefit from shield slam by RAW.
Feral Combat Training will add a natural weapon to the flurry options of a Zen Archer.
No it will not because a Zen Archer's bow is not a natural weapon.
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.