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Illusions are spells that either conjure non-existing images into existence(Figments, Glamers), tries to influence the minds of those who percieve it(Patterns, Phantasms), or twists the rules of reality to create forces that are as powerful as the belief people have in them (Shadows)
I have looked for clarifications on what certain illusion spells can and cannot do, how they should operate mechanically, and all the headache inducing nonsense that a dedicated illusionist risks bringing to the table with every casting, if he tiptoes outside the proverbial box.
Mirage Arcana. It's a 5th level illusion spell and it's details can be found here.
This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can't disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location).
The bolded text is what I am wondering about. The caster can control how the illusion sounds, what the illusion looks like, feels like and smells like. Not just showing the subject of the spell a hologram of stuff, like you do with figments, this glamer fully attemps to take control of 4 of the subjects 5 senses. But since the sense of touch is dependent on whatever you're touching providing some form of resistance to your movement (however small it might be), how can this illusion hope to work with the illusion rules being what they are?
To clarify:
The rules of illusion magic state that if an illusion is interacted with or closely scrutinized, it may be disbelieved, and until such a time, no save is allowed. Note that there is a "Usually"-clause tied into these rules, but no specifics are given. This is of course, so that a person who touches a figment of a wall or door, will see his hand go through it, feel no resistance, and immediately conclude that whatever he's supposedly touching is an illusion, not only granting him a save, but outright instantly making him disbelieve the spell. However glamers do not simply make holograms, they affect the victims perception of what is, and what is not, controlling the only means the character actually has of detecting the illusion to begin with, his senses.
Now to make my point we will have our caster use his Mirage Arcana to create himself a manor house. It has a big oaken front door, but is otherwise very open, and has a spiral staircase that takes you to the second floor. Our caster uses this spell on a flat, open grassland, so the manor just sits there in the middle of nowhere. He then adds a courtyard (where there is no grass) and an outer wall with an arched opening, but no gate. Minor details aside, his Mirage Arcana is now complete. Now this house is not real, it's a glamer, an illusion, a trick that affects the senses of those who percieve it.
Here comes our clueless adventurer. He's been travelling for quite a while and is happy to see a house where he might get some rest. Here's what happens:
The adventurer sees the manor at a distance. No save is allowed.
The adventurer reaches the house and walks through the arc in the wall, not touching the walls. However! He is now walking in what the illusion would have him believe is a grassless courtyard, only the wild grass of the land is actually still there.
Does this relatively small inconsistency allow the victim of the spell to make a disbelieve check? Is it a matter of footwear? What if he's barefoot or wearing sandals? What if he's wearing plateboots? Does this make a difference or is it too minor?
What about the fact that the house is not actually there, and that when a wind sweep across the grasslands, the character would feel it?! Even if you explain it away with a draft, the character could be in the broomcloset or otherwise completely sealed in and he would still feel the breeze or the rain.
What if the adventurer goes upstairs? The illusion cannot support weight since it's not a shadow, so what happens?
According to the spelldescription the illusion controls 4 out of 5 senses. But what does that even mean? Mirage Arcana affects the sense of touch. Does that mean that when you're inside the house you cannot actually feel the wind, because the illusion would have you believe you're indoors? Can you be drenched in rain and not realize it, since both your sight, hearing and touch is being decieved by the spell? If the adventurer touches a wall, there is actually nothing there, yet he is made to percieve there is (sight, touch). Yet his sense of touch is based on objects resisting him, something the illusion cannot do, since it does not have physical form. What happens if he leans on a wall? He recieves a save, of course, but what if he fails it? Can he fail it? Does he fall through the wall, or is he made to believe he is leaning, when in fact he is merely assuming a leaning position, but not actually supporting his weight against anything?
If he goes upstairs it gets more tricky. From the perspective of the illusionist, observing the adventurer from the safety of his invisibility spell, what is he seeing the adventurer do inside his non-existing manor? Is the adventurer stepping into the area, then walking to where the stair is supposed to be, then lifting his legs, stepping down on the air, then repeating with his opposite leg, and walking in a circle, as the adventurer ascends what he believes to be a spiral staircase? Or does the adventurer simply stop moving altogether, his sense of touch (and thereby movement)tricking him into believing he is moving about a house when, in fact, he is merely staring into space, beguiled by the illusion?
What if he was to jump off the roof? He would surely 'feel' the fall, seeing as how his sense of touch is affected, and sight is a given, but naturally, since he has no way of moving up from the ground he is standing on(flat grassland), the fall would be a matter of his senses being tricked, and he would recieve no falling damage. Or would this simply never happen, the illusion simply insta-failing because him trying to move upstairs cannot occur without the illusion failing? If we assume that it CAN happen and that his senses can be tricked so that he believes himself up on the roof, what does he see from his elevated position? Is the view included in the illusion? Does the illusionist have to make, knowing what the view looks like? What happens if he does not hold the means to find out? Like making a Mirage Arcana of a giant tower, but never actually having memorized a flight spell to learn what everything looks like from that height? Can the illusion be assumed to work, does it fail? Is the image shown to the victim a distorted, unreal image, based on the casters idea of what it would look like?
The way -I- see this spell, is like the circus from Baldur's Gate 2. You may believe you're in an immense castle, smelling exotic flora and walking down long hallways, but in fact you're just walking in very small circles, almost not moving from the same spot, until your mind reestablishes control of your senses.
Insights, experiences and opinions are appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
-Nearyn
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But since the sense of touch is dependent on whatever you're touching providing some form of resistance to your movement (however small it might be), how can this illusion hope to work with the illusion rules being what they are?When you casually touch part of the illusion, you will feel it. It wouldn't have a tactile element otherwise. You can see the rose bush, smell the roses and think you pricked yourself on the thorns. However, since these sensations were caused by a glamer, it's all just your senses fooling you.
He is now walking in what the illusion would have him believe is a grassless courtyard, only the wild grass of the land is actually still there.It is, but the traveller cannot see or feel it.
Does this relatively small inconsistency allow the victim of the spell to make a disbelieve check? Is it a matter of footwear? What if he's barefoot or wearing sandals? What if he's wearing plateboots? Does this make a difference or is it too minor?"A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear." To the victim, there is no grass. The traveller does not see it, does not smell it, does not hear it bend and snap under his feet. Were he to stump his toe on a rock that the illusion has "removed", he would not understand why he tripped. Though at that point, he should get a save.
What about the fact that the house is not actually there, and that when a wind sweep across the grasslands, the character would feel it?!He wouldn't feel it. He feels the tactile properties of the illusion instead.
What if the adventurer goes upstairs? The illusion cannot support weight since it's not a shadow, so what happens?
Now I have to start guessing, 'cause this is GM territory.
"Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements."So it's clear the victim cannot actually go up the stairs. And the spell can't make him think he went up the stair, since its not mind-affecting. But I do not know if it can make him feel like he's going up the stairs. I don't think so, since that requires the illusion to interact with the victim and it's not a programmed illusion.
when you're inside the house you cannot actually feel the wind, because the illusion would have you believe you're indoors? Can you be drenched in rain and not realize it, since both your sight, hearing and touch is being decieved by the spell?That's my take on it. Though there's no thermal effect, so the victim does get cold.
What happens if he leans on a wall? He recieves a save, of course, but what if he fails it? Can he fail it? Does he fall through the wall, or is he made to believe he is leaning, when in fact he is merely assuming a leaning position, but not actually supporting his weight against anything?
Touch the wall, and you feel it. Tap on the wall, and you hear it. Strike the wall, and see your hand disappear into it.
It makes no scientific sense to distinguish between tactile feedback and applying force, but this isn't science. It's magic. So when you walk along the corridor while keeping your hand against the wall, you feel every bump. But lean against that same wall, and suddenly you have irrefutable proof it was an illusion all along. At which point do do not get a save, 'cause you no longer need one.Mirage Arcana can be felt, but it cannot support you. The GM will have to decide where touching stops, and leaning starts.
If he goes upstairs it gets more tricky.
I'm inclined to say the illusion fails when you try to climb the stairs. Or sit on a chair. Mostly because I'm having trouble imagining how it would work when multiple people are present.
Interesting :)
To clarify(In case my former description came off rambling), what I believe the effect of a Mirage Arcana, creating an illusion of an area with a stair in it, would be like. Look at this little clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pcE_VgL24Q
0:00-0:16 = Just walking along minding your own business. Walking over to that *insert building* over there.
0:17-0:18 = Entering the area of the Mirage Arcana, interacting with a part of it, and failing your will save.
0:19-1:18 = Insert whatever illusion the Mirage Arcana actually makes here. It -COULD- be a long staircase with a talking frog. It could just be a staircase, or a winding tunnel.
1:19+ = What the victim is actually doing, while he thinks he's going upstairs and exploring places he cannot actually go.
This would enable the creation of great castles, complex dungeons, mazes and other trickery with Mirage Arcana. The effect I believe the spell was intended to produce :)
One of the sad, sad things of the game is that casters have irrefutable proof their illusions are illusions - since they cast the spells themselves. Because of this, they don't get a save, can't voluntarily fail it and so can never fully experience their own figments or glamers.
So you can't make your own dream castle.
This I disagree with. An illusionist is more than capable of knowingly failing his will-save, even with his own illusions IMO.
If the caster of an illusion instantly disbelieved his own illusions, it would take away alot of application, flavour and depth of the entire illusion school.
The old sorceress who uses illusions to maintain a youthful look, so that her vanity does not suffer when she looks in a mirror.
The god-complex mid-level wizard who acts like the lord of the castle, when in fact he is merely a hobo, dressed in a myriad of illusions, sitting on a hilltop.
A caster who uses shadow conjuration to create himself a flying mount to escape combat is now utterly screwed, because he instantly disbelieves his own spell, rendering the flight only 20% likely to work. If he uses it to conjure monsters with SLA's and uses them to buff himself, then they too are at an all time minimum.
I don't believe you are correct in the assumption that illusionists cannot forego their willsave. It would make SO little sense to me if they couldn't.
Also I don't think it's supported by RAW.
The rule is:
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
If the rule was to be read the way you imply, surely it should say:
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real gets no saving throw, instead automatically disbelieving the illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
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Regarding disbelief,
I believe subject would receive Will save to disbelief first time he touches with his bare foot or fingers the illusion.
After that, subject is under illusion whole time until 2 things happen:
1. Someone gives him insight, "Hey you fool, this is illusion!"
2. Target spends enough time in it until evening when temperature drops down in desert, causing another Will save to disbelief.
Edit: Jumping from the top of house might also qualify for another disbelief Will save since target received no damage.
I love the staircase one. I think it could work, since the mirage specifically states it can create structures.
Say you have two people entering this phantom manse. One of them decides to ascend the spiral staircase and the other stays below. He should get a will save upon attempting to ascend the stairs. If he fails, he should continue to ascend. From the point of view of the ascending individual, he is walking in circles and able to see the paintings on the walls, the oak grain of the stairs, and hear the creak of the old wood supporting his weight. Similarly, the person on the main floor hears the creaking of the steps getting higher and higher above him.
Of course, since this is a spiral staircase, the ascending individual comes full circle and bumps into his companion. They both get a will save. The person on the ground floor succeeds, but he person on the stairs doesn't. He begins to fall down the stairs, rolling as the illusionary gravity pulls him down. He should get a will save on every stair. If that's not enough, the other fellow can slap him to his senses afterwards.
Why do I think that two different subjects contained within the same illusion can experience different things? Because this spell is a Glamer, not a Figment. A figment is an objective illusion; it is what it is and all who have contact with it have the same experience. It does not have that clause in the Glamer, so you can have it be subjective as opposed to objective.
Should anyone have argument to the contrary, I would like to hear it. I rather enjoy illusions, though I have never had the occasion to use this particular one.
An illusionist is more than capable of knowingly failing his will-save, even with his own illusions IMO.I wish it was true, I really do. But even James Jacobs says it isn't. An Illusionist can create fantasy dreamlands for others... but will have to resort to Enchantments to fool himself.
If the caster of an illusion instantly disbelieved his own illusions, it would take away alot of application, flavour and depth of the entire illusion school.Yes.
The old sorceress who uses illusions to maintain a youthful look, so that her vanity does not suffer when she looks in a mirror.Avoid mirrors. But at least other people will tell her she's beautiful. Though a decent intimidation check could have done the same thing.
The god-complex mid-level wizard who acts like the lord of the castle, when in fact he is merely a hobo, dressed in a myriad of illusions, sitting on a hilltop.Not going to happen, unless you houserule him. Although... he could create a Simulacrum of himself, and then deliberately fail his saves against its spells.
A caster who uses shadow conjuration to create himself a flying mount to escape combat is now utterly screwed
It's probably the shadow spells that make the "no self-illuding" rule a requirement. Otherwise, you get free Shade Trap the Soul or standard action Shadow Contingency or Shadow Demiplane.
The fact that the rules say "needs no saving throw" instead of "gets no saving throw" is merely due to the books being written by writers, and not lawyers.
And those writers broke my illusionist's heart.
This has been discussed in great depth before. I urge you to expand upon that thread.
Here's a fun little snippet from the thread:
A spellcaster uses Mirage Arcana to create the illusion of a tower stronghold (20'x20'x180').
The PCs, failing their saves upon entering, split up to explore the tower. Some party members go up the stairs, others go into the basements, while still others explore the main floor.
What happens? Are they all somehow magically floating in the air/buried underground? Are they all in the same 20x20 area of ground, but totally unaware of each others' presence (effectively hiding in the illusion)? If it is the latter, what happens if they bump into each other? Do they simply not feel it? Do their brains/senses ignore it as if it didn't happen?
If a third party were to come across them, and made their save, would the first group be seen all just be standing around in a catatonic state, caught up in the illusion?
....
.........
WAIT JUST ONE SPELL CRIPPLING MINUTE!
That ruling is crazy. Do they even realize they're indirectly nerfing Greater Shadow Conjuration (And maybe other spells) with this ruling?! Not just from a flavour point, but actually, numerically nerfing an existing spell!
Shouldn't this be included in a spelldescription or something?! Shouldn't this be included in the same bracket of text as JJ's ruling?!
Let me illustrate my point:
By RAW a person faced with proof NEEDS not make a save, meaning by RAW, the caster of an illusion CAN get a save, and, in accordance with RAW, may decide to fail that save.
This means that if we follow RAW, a caster could use Greater shadow conjuration to mimic the effect of a Summon monster V. The caster could then summon a Bralani Azata, deciding to fail his save, which would allow him to recieve the full effect of the creature's Cure Serious Wounds and Blur SLAs.
If Skip and JJ's ruling(auto-disbelieve own illusions) is used, then on every use of Greater shadow conjuration, used for summoning, the caster will automatically disbelieve his summoned creature, giving special abilities only a 20% chance to work on himself!! SLAs are special abilities!!
Did they even realize this when making that ruling?!
There is absolutely no way I am ever playing with this ruling. Not only does it remove a ton of flavour from illusions, but it adds precisely NOTHING to the game.
No. Thank. You.
RAW for me thank you very much.
I hear you, brother. (Or sister. Or both. Or neither. I'm not picky.)
Did they even realize this when making that ruling?!
I imagine so, the implications really are quite obvious.
On the plus side: since this clearly sets the regular Contingency apart from a Greater Shadow Evocation one, you can have both. But one of them only works three out of five times...
Glamers are external. They do not get into your head and alter your sense of perspective, so they can't make you walk around in circles, thinking you've walked up stairs. Glamers and figments are external.
If you are going to 'go up stairs', sit on something, consume something, whatever, you cannot physically do it to an illusion.
Everyone sees the same thing. You can't derp around 'thinking' you've gone upstairs. Your mind will never compensate for this type of illusion. But, the illusion can compensate for you.
Generally, you should get a will save every time the illusion has to compensate. So, in the case of the manor with 2 floors- the doors to the stairs are all locked. Perhaps a butler shoos you away when you approach them. If you attempt to ascend, the stairs cannot support your weight; the stairs will buckle and you'll fall through.
An illusionary meal can be delicious, aromatic, have all the texture and taste of the real thing... but you'll still feel hungry. This confusing notion would once again, grant you a will save.
A strong wind could wash through the halls as a sudden draft. Leaning against of wall could be ... discouraged by well placed artwork, or tables of nicknacks. Something like rain would darn near be impossible to mask.
(likewise, invisibility does not universally get into everyone's head and think you're not there, it just makes it so normal vision doesn't perceive it. You can very much still bump into an invisible person, you will not auto miss because your mind believes you can't hit what's not there.)
(Also, you can completely choose to fail a will save. Clerics do it to fully heal themselves all the time.)