Preserving Flask and Infusions

[Cheapy]

This question will come up eventually, so may as well get it out of the way.

Infusion wrote:

Benefit: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.

Preserving Flask wrote:

This small, durable flask is designed to preserve alchemical

extracts indefinitely. An extract stored in a preserving
flask remains potent until it is consumed or otherwise
removed from the flask. Preserved extracts count against an
alchemist’s extracts per day on the day they are prepared,
but not on subsequent days. Each flask is capable of
preserving an extract of a particular level. An extract stored
in the flask retains duration, caster level, and other properties
it had when it was created. The flask works on extracts and
infusions, but not mutagens

Preserving Flask works on infusions. The item only uses extract until the last line, so the rules apply to both extracts and infusions.

The question here is: does putting an Infusion in the Preserving Flask count against your extracts per day on days after you put the infusion in the flask?

I'm not sure which is the more specific rule, so "general vs specific" isn't telling me much.

If they don't use up slots, then you could basically create Preserving Extracts of all those nice personal only extracts and then sell them as pseudo-potions. Expensive, but hey.

[ossian666]

Hmm could question. That will be VERY useful to know.

[Dennis Baker]

An infused extract is still an extract so yes.

Quote:

When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.

[hogarth]

It sounds like the alchemical equivalent of a ring of spell storing. How much do they cost?

[Cheapy]

Dennis Baker wrote:

An infused extract is still an extract so yes.

Quote:

When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.

Yes the Preserving Flask with an infusion would continue to use up extracts per day?

[hogarth]

Cheapy wrote:

Yes the Preserving Flask with an infusion would continue to use up extracts per day?

An infused extract would be treated just like any other extract (so it would take up a slot on the first day and not on subsequent days). I'm not sure how I could read it any other way.

[Dennis Baker]

It works with infused extracts just like it does for other extracts.

"Preserved extracts count against an alchemist’s extracts per day on the day they are prepared, but not on subsequent days."

[Cheapy]

Nice.

[hogarth]

How much does the flask cost, by the way?

[Gobo Horde]

in essence once you get the infusion discovery, all your extracts count as infusions unless you specifically dont want a certain extract to be used by others.

i would also like to know how much this costs. This with alchemical allocation would allow you to have more high level spells than you would normally be allowed. Potentially a 13th level alchemist could cast 10+ 5th level spells (they would most likely be all the same).

PS I am assuming this came out with the new book ultimate equipment? Sounds like there are alot of interesting things in there.

[Cheapy]

Spell level squared times 1k

[hogarth]

Cheapy wrote:

Spell level squared times 1k

So half the price of a Ring of Spell Storing. That seems reasonable to me, considering that there's a much bigger selection of spells vs. formulas.

[Diego Rossi]

hogarth wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Yes the Preserving Flask with an infusion would continue to use up extracts per day?

An infused extract would be treated just like any other extract (so it would take up a slot on the first day and not on subsequent days). I'm not sure how I could read it any other way.

Normally infusion count against your daily allotment of extracts forever:

PRD wrote:

Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.

RAW the text contradicts itself:

- it speak of extracts all the time
- then at the end it say "The flask works on extracts and
infusions"
It is interesting to know what effect supersede the other.

The other relevant piece of the rules is:

PRD wrote:

An extract, once created, remains potent for 1 day before losing its magic, so an alchemist must re-prepare his extracts every day.

There are two questions here:

1) the flask is really meant to remove the infusion limitation or it is meant to remove only the extract limitation?
2) if that is true, what happen if someone steal the flask and pour the infusion in a normal container? Suddenly the alchemist lose a extract slot of the appropriate level?

[Cheapy]

Diego, Dennis Baker was the author of the item in question.

[Diego Rossi]

Cheapy, very good for him, so the flask work wit an infusion.

What is the reply to the second question?
I steal your flask, empty it in a normal bottle to keep the infusion and sell the flask as I am not an alchemist.
You (the alchemist) suddenly lose a extract slot?

If not I can use the flask to store 1 infusion every day at no cost?

Step by step:
- day 1 I create a infusion of shield and put the flask away.
- day 2 the infusion don't count against my daily allotment of extracts.
- I pour the infusion in a potion bottle, it still don't count against my daily allotment of extracts.
- I make a new infusion of shield and put it into the bottle.
- I sell my 0 cost "potion" of shield.

If it work this way I am buying one as soon as possible and selling "almost potions" at a cheap price.

[Cheapy]

Quote:

Preserving Flask

Price varies; Aura strong abjuration; CL 17th; Weight —

1st-level 1,000 gp; 2nd-level 4,000 gp; 3rd-level 9,000 gp; 4th-level 16,000 gp; 5th-level 25,000 gp; 6th-level 36,000 gp

This small, durable flask is designed to preserve alchemical extracts indefinitely. An extract stored in a preserving flask remains potent until it is consumed or otherwise removed from the flask. Preserved extracts count against an alchemist's extracts per day on the day they are prepared, but not on subsequent days. Each flask is capable of preserving an extract of a particular level. An extract stored in the flask retains duration, caster level, and other properties it had when it was created. The flask works on extracts and infusions, but not mutagens.

Construction Requirements

1st-level 500 gp; 2nd-level 2,000 gp; 3rd-level 4,500 gp; 4th-level 8,000 gp; 5th-level 12,500 gp; 6th-level 18,000 gp

Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to create alchemical extracts of the extract level to be stored

It becomes no longer potent, so when you pour the infusion into another container, it just becomes slightly magical sludge that doesn't do anything as it has lost all potency. You do not lose an extract slot. You do not get to sell a potion that cost you nothing.

[Diego Rossi]

Cheapy wrote:

Quote:

Preserving Flask

Price varies; Aura strong abjuration; CL 17th; Weight —

1st-level 1,000 gp; 2nd-level 4,000 gp; 3rd-level 9,000 gp; 4th-level 16,000 gp; 5th-level 25,000 gp; 6th-level 36,000 gp

This small, durable flask is designed to preserve alchemical extracts indefinitely. An extract stored in a preserving flask remains potent until it is consumed or otherwise removed from the flask. Preserved extracts count against an alchemist's extracts per day on the day they are prepared, but not on subsequent days. Each flask is capable of preserving an extract of a particular level. An extract stored in the flask retains duration, caster level, and other properties it had when it was created. The flask works on extracts and infusions, but not mutagens.

Construction Requirements

1st-level 500 gp; 2nd-level 2,000 gp; 3rd-level 4,500 gp; 4th-level 8,000 gp; 5th-level 12,500 gp; 6th-level 18,000 gp

Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to create alchemical extracts of the extract level to be stored

It becomes no longer potent, so when you pour the infusion into another container, it just becomes slightly magical sludge that doesn't do anything as it has lost all potency. You do not lose an extract slot. You do not get to sell a potion that cost you nothing.

So it break 2 of the rules about infusion ...

My esteem to Dennis for thinking ahead and closing that hole in advance.

Well, thank for the info, Cheapy.

[Diego Rossi]

Dennis Baker, private mail wrote:

"Preserved extracts count against an alchemist's extracts per day on the day they are prepared, but not on subsequent days. "

Once it's out of the preserving flask, it would revert to it's normal behavior. Extracts poured out last a day, infusions poured out count against the alchemists daily limit, etc.

The flask doesn't permanently alter the nature of the extract, it preserves it so long as it's contained.

So if the infusion is poured into a normal container it again count against the extract available to the Alchemist.

[Cheapy]

Well, what does he know anyways? :)

storing away to help explain the intent later, thanks

[Diego Rossi]

He know his intent when he made the item.
I have discovered that my confusion actually come from the infusion discovery.
Look the other thread. A infusion last a day like an extract or more?

[Cheapy]

I know, I was joking with that line. :)

[Joesi]

While this old thread is still resurrected, I might as well make the comment that preserving flasks seem mostly useless. I see virtually no point to using a preserving flask over a Boro bead. The one advantage is that you can cast a DIFFERENT spell than all previously cast/prepared spells, but generally that doesn't matter, since you're going to use at least one spell more than once per day anyway (alchemical allocation, CLW, shield, etc.)

The big upside of the boro bead is that it essentially allows you to cast an extra sell for THAT DAY, instead of having to wait the next day. Because you could only use a preserving flask [to use a spell more than your daily spell limit] every other day AT MOST, it is a lot worse than the boro bead. In my opinion it should have 50-80% the cost of a boro bead due to that huge downside.

I don't even know why Paizo made/published both the Boro bead and Preserving flask at the same time (ultimate equipment), let alone pricing them the same.

Casting spells for occasional use is what scrolls and potions are for. Sure a preserving flask is re-usable, but scrolls are also an assload cheaper. If it's for spells that aren't used only occasionally, one should be getting the boro beads.

[Dennis Baker]

The bead is arguably a better choice in most ways but as you pointed out, they aren't completely redundant either. The flask allows you to use a spell you haven't prepared on that day. Additionally, boro beads take additional actions to use where the flask can be used immediately. You could buy 3 flasks and pass out three infusions to your buddies that you prepared the previous day and all use them in the same round. It's obviously a tactic that is best utilized when you have the luxury of time.

Paizo asked a bunch of designers... you can see the list in the beginning of the book... to build cool, fun items for all the classes. Two designers looked at the problem and came up with similar but different solutions and the developer(s) felt they were unique enough to put them both in (or didn't notice how close they were). Paizo added a ton of new items in Ultimate Equipment and while the developers and designers made efforts not to create duplicate items, some semi-redundant stuff is bound to slip in when you publish something like 1000 items.

[Kiba Kurokage]

Sorry to resurrect this after so long, but I found this thread while googling additional info for my alchemist. And while this may be long solved, I'd like to add my opinion for when/if others find the thread.

Firstly, the original question. Starting off with WHAT is an Infusion? It's a discovery that states you can infuse an extract with extra power to make it persist and continue using your 'spell' slots, but continues to refer to it as an extract, and once an 'infused extract'. So it is VERY safe to say it's a case of all infusions are extracts, but not all extracts are infusions. So anything applying to extracts work on both, but is something specifies working with infusions, it may not work with extracts.

So in this case, though Preserving flask specifies extracts and infusions, it doesn't NEED to, as all infusions ARE extracts.

Next up, Would Preserving flasks still count against daily slots? I would say no, as the preserving flask states explicitly that "Preserved extracts count against an alchemist’s extracts per day on the day they are prepared, but not on subsequent days." This also runs into the question of removing it to another vial. And I say both mechanically and likely RAI/balance wise, That even an infusion extract once removed from a preserving flask is no longer potent. As referenced here in preserving flask: " An extract stored in a preserving flask remains potent until it is consumed or otherwise removed from the flask."

So a regular extract stored in a preserving flask is maintained by the magic of the flask, and remains potent like a infused extract, but still, only you may drink it. Removing by any means except drinking it would ruin the extract.

Additionally, an INFUSED extract functions in the same way, but with the following changes: That after the first day, an infused extract, Like a base extract, stops using a spell slot. As the magic needed to maintain the infused extract is switched from your 'spell' slots, to the magic of the flask. AND that others may still continue to drink the extract instead of just you, as it is still an infusion. Though as with a regular extract, once the infusion has switched it's magic source from your slots to the magic of the flask, it is ruined when being removed except when drinking it.

I believe this is reasonable and in line with other items like rings of spell storing, as you can only store 1 extract per magic item (costing 1K, 4K, 9K, 16K, 25K, or 36K Respectively, 1-6 Spell level). So if you wanted to store spells en masse, you'd have to spend that much money on each individual flask, and STILL use up the spell slot to begin with when first making them. I mostly find the flasks good for higher level extracts to hand out to other party members that they may or may not use in a particular day, or for the illustrious Alchemical Allocation mixed with a shade walking or Spirit rush elixir, or even just a high CL Barkskin potion or the like.

Lastly, As it was mentioned above a little, I believe that Boro Beads are rather different from Preserving flasks, and fill similar, but different roles. As flasks use your 'spell' slot for the day, then on following days, keep the extract potent for use, and can't be used again until it IS used, or dumped out. While Boro Beads refresh the slot after being used, such as drinking extracts in combat, then afterward, using them to refresh the slots to brew more extracts in the same day, and can be used every day. Flasks=Carry spells to new days, Beads=Using more spells in the same day. So while they achieve the same goal of "More spells a day" they do fill different roles.

Thank you all for your time, and please let me know if you have any disputes, questions, or disagreements about my statements!