Hellknight Paladin Smite


Rules Questions


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Hello. A player in my group is a paladin and is thinking of taking levels into hellknight. Now my question is mostly about stacking the two smites together. Like if they ran into a chaotic evil creature, would they be able to use both smites, not in the same round, on that creature for the additional base attack and bonus damage? And are they any actual creatures out there that would fall under the category for both bonus damage? You cant have multiple sub types correct? Just want to make sure about this,


I don't see why not. Takes two rounds to ramp up so i don't think it's that much of an issue. Won't overtake normal pally smite.


The AC bonus wouldn't stack since it's a deflection bonus. Since the damage and attack bonus isn't specified further I think it would stack.

Dark Archive

When you think about it, he's not even breaking even by stacking them.

Level 10 paladin smite is +10 damage, and he has four of them per day.

Level 5 paladin/5 hellknight smite is +5 damage each for a total of 10, but he's only got two smite evils and two smite chaos. As Menelmacar said, the deflection bonus to AC doesn't stack, and as Caius says, it would take two turns to ramp up the damage against a chaotic evil foe (and it would only work against a chaotic evil foe).

And yes, you can have many multiple subtypes. See half-orcs and half-elves.


I think they'd only stack against creatures that have both the Chaotic and Evil sub-types, mainly Demons and such. Then again, said player would need to use both on the same enemy, which I wouldn't consider a good investment of limited resources (actions and uses of Smite) unless the target was Deskari or some Drow High Priestess, or some other final boss.


He's going to have a very, very hard time maintaining his Paladin Code AND the tenets of the Hellknights, though...

I can't see this working out in my mind.


Mergy wrote:
And yes, you can have many multiple subtypes. See half-orcs and half-elves.

So say a creature does fall under both subtypes, would the damage of both smites be increased, so say the lvl 5 paladin lvl 5 hellknight would do an additional 20 damage, 10 from paladin and 10 from hellknight?

Foghammer wrote:

He's going to have a very, very hard time maintaining his Paladin Code AND the tenets of the Hellknights, though...

I can't see this working out in my mind.

Why do you say that? I've read both the code for paladin and the different orders for the hellknight. The orders of the hellknight do not really go against a lawful good alignment nor the code? I can see with the order of chain, what with hunting down slaves, along with the order of the gate as dealing with fiends would prove to be an issue but the order of the nail and god claw. Plus it seems like the lesser orders are open to be made by the GM.


.


Because the three core values of the Hellknights are Order (okay, that's good), Discipline (a little strict sounding, but alright), and...

Mercilessness.

That makes the line you have to walk so razor thin you're gonna have a hard time seeing it. I didn't say that it *can't* be done, I'm saying "I doubt it will be done."

More power to you though. Post about it if it works out, I'd like to read about it.

EDIT: If you have it, check out part 4 of Council of Thieves. Or maybe you already have. The Hellknights are just a badass incarnation of lawful stupid, albiet really, really cool.


Several of the listed high-level Hellknight personalities are Paladins though, so it certainly can be done. But some of the Hellknight orders will be more fitting for a Paladin than others, certainly.


The big thing is, for Paladins whenever law and good conflict the paladin must choose good. The hellknights are all about order at the expense of anything else, they are ruthless efficiency to the extreme. I actually have no idea how any paladin could work with them other than on a case by case basis.


Are wrote:
Several of the listed high-level Hellknight personalities are Paladins though, so it certainly can be done. But some of the Hellknight orders will be more fitting for a Paladin than others, certainly.

The Rack has always been a personal favorite Hellknight Order of mine, since it's MO feels much less conflicting with a Paladin code. As a member of the Order of the Rack, your job is to hunt down evil texts and such and destroy them.

If that doesn't work, Order of the Pike hunts down monster. Or, as someone posted above, just have the DM create a lesser order and BAM, you're on your way.


This has been argued, in length, in other threads.

James Jacobs wrote:
Paladins can be Hellknights.


Have their been any stated hellknights with levels in pally? What about cavalier?

Who would the pally worship?


One of the statted godclaw members is a paladin. The order was also founded by Paladins who fought at the worldwound.


The Crusader wrote:

This has been argued, in length, in other threads.

James Jacobs wrote:
Paladins can be Hellknights.

The main focus wasn't that they cant, it was if their smite abilities could stack and I believe we have covered that.

I do want to thank everyone for their input in this matter, I would like to see this class combo and how it works, I think it will make it interesting. Thou if anyone still wishes to discuss this, I'm willing to listen so I can better grasp the limitation and what I should expect.


Shalafi2412 wrote:

Have their been any stated hellknights with levels in pally? What about cavalier?

Who would the pally worship?

A cavalier hellknight would be kind of interesting but there might be a clash between orders and cause conflict for them. Would have to be careful, maybe if someone was interested in that, the GM could make an order which employes both cavaliers and hellknights


Paladins don't have to worship a specific diety like Clerics do. They just have to be LG.

Dark Archive

Alan Lint wrote:
Mergy wrote:
And yes, you can have many multiple subtypes. See half-orcs and half-elves.
So say a creature does fall under both subtypes, would the damage of both smites be increased, so say the lvl 5 paladin lvl 5 hellknight would do an additional 20 damage, 10 from paladin and 10 from hellknight?

I'm not sure where you got ten damage from each smite. Five paladin levels equals five damage when smiting; the same goes with five hellknight levels. So, assuming a 16 charisma and fighting a chaotic evil enemy:

Smite evil: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Smite chaos: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Both together: +6 to attack rolls, +10 to damage, +3 to AC.


Mergy wrote:
Alan Lint wrote:
Mergy wrote:
And yes, you can have many multiple subtypes. See half-orcs and half-elves.
So say a creature does fall under both subtypes, would the damage of both smites be increased, so say the lvl 5 paladin lvl 5 hellknight would do an additional 20 damage, 10 from paladin and 10 from hellknight?

I'm not sure where you got ten damage from each smite. Five paladin levels equals five damage when smiting; the same goes with five hellknight levels. So, assuming a 16 charisma and fighting a chaotic evil enemy:

Smite evil: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Smite chaos: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Both together: +6 to attack rolls, +10 to damage, +3 to AC.

If you spend the first two rounds using both smites, on the very first successful attack, if the target falls under both subtypes, smite does 2 additional points per lvl, so 5 lvls pally means 10 damage and same for hellknight for a total of +6 attack +10 damage +3 ac for the first attack against creature correct?

Dark Archive

Alan Lint wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Alan Lint wrote:
Mergy wrote:
And yes, you can have many multiple subtypes. See half-orcs and half-elves.
So say a creature does fall under both subtypes, would the damage of both smites be increased, so say the lvl 5 paladin lvl 5 hellknight would do an additional 20 damage, 10 from paladin and 10 from hellknight?

I'm not sure where you got ten damage from each smite. Five paladin levels equals five damage when smiting; the same goes with five hellknight levels. So, assuming a 16 charisma and fighting a chaotic evil enemy:

Smite evil: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Smite chaos: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Both together: +6 to attack rolls, +10 to damage, +3 to AC.

If you spend the first two rounds using both smites, on the very first successful attack, if the target falls under both subtypes, smite does 2 additional points per lvl, so 5 lvls pally means 10 damage and same for hellknight for a total of +6 attack +10 damage +3 ac for the first attack against creature correct?

Yes, if you smited both prior to the first attack you made against a succubus (for example), you would be at +(charisma x 2) to attack for +20 damage for you first attack. Not really overpowered for level 10 though.


Mergy wrote:
Alan Lint wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Alan Lint wrote:
Mergy wrote:
And yes, you can have many multiple subtypes. See half-orcs and half-elves.
So say a creature does fall under both subtypes, would the damage of both smites be increased, so say the lvl 5 paladin lvl 5 hellknight would do an additional 20 damage, 10 from paladin and 10 from hellknight?

I'm not sure where you got ten damage from each smite. Five paladin levels equals five damage when smiting; the same goes with five hellknight levels. So, assuming a 16 charisma and fighting a chaotic evil enemy:

Smite evil: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Smite chaos: +3 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +3 to AC.

Both together: +6 to attack rolls, +10 to damage, +3 to AC.

If you spend the first two rounds using both smites, on the very first successful attack, if the target falls under both subtypes, smite does 2 additional points per lvl, so 5 lvls pally means 10 damage and same for hellknight for a total of +6 attack +10 damage +3 ac for the first attack against creature correct?
Yes, if you smited both prior to the first attack you made against a succubus (for example), you would be at +(charisma x 2) to attack for +20 damage for you first attack. Not really overpowered for level 10 though.

I realize this but I just want to make sure that it works so we dont have complications later on and people argue. Part of the reason I wanted to post. Thank you for taking time to answer.

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