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Martial Versatility (Combat)
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, human.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.
Dervish Dance (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
So, with these two feats, fighters can use Dex for hit and damage on any one-handed heavy blade (most notably, bastard swords [with proficiency], katanas, and temple swords). Additionally, you can use any heavy blade to deal piercing damage, making duelists happy. And once you hit level 16, feel free to pick up Martial Mastery so you can use your Dex on any one-handed weapon.
Seems like it might be doable but if your not the GM check with him and if your PFS ready for table variation. I guess it coumes down to how you read applies to feats that call said weapons out or only to feats where you pick the weapon.
Though martial mastery wouldn't open it up to other groups just lets you apply all your combat feats to weapons that share a group with the specific weapon the feat effects.
Martial Mastery (Combat, Human)
You further broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.
Prerequisites: Martial Versatility, fighter level 16th, human.
Benefit: Each combat feat you have that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
If this does work Aldori dueling mastery would also be a interesting one to grab. Now starting at 16th level with mastery you would get a +2 init and +2 shield bonus while attacking with dex and adding dex damage to any heavy blade.
If its the case (due to the number of feats I'd allow it on a test basis for sure) then it opens up some methods to actually not be a cookie cutter just because you only have one good option.
EWP definatly comes to mind.
Almost all of the style feats use unarmed strike.
Dear god since all of them work off unarmed strike that would auto include natural weapons.
Developers have already confirmed that exotic weapon proficiency is a perfectly valid choice.
Can't decide on a picture bbt?
Yeah I know thats a lot of varying weapons for an unarmed fighter to choose from when he is using style feats assuming this works like we are thinking it does.
RAW, I don't think it would work. Just because the feat specifically calls out scimitar in the text. Just about all the other valid options for combat feats usually go with some sort of wording amounting to "the weapon you took this feat for." With dervish it actually says scimitar in the wording so even if you slipped short sword in with martial versatility, feat wording still calls out scimitar. It would amount to yes you can use dervish dance with short swords, but you still only get the bonus with scimitars as the feat wording states scimitar.
Martial Versatility (Combat)
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, human.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.Dervish Dance (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.So, with these two feats, fighters can use Dex for hit and damage on any one-handed heavy blade (most notably, bastard swords [with proficiency], katanas, and temple swords). Additionally, you can use any heavy blade to deal piercing damage, making duelists happy. And once you hit level 16, feel free to pick up Martial Mastery so you can use your Dex on any one-handed weapon.
I do not think it is RAI since you do not apply the dervish dance to a specific weapon but only works with scimitar, the feat description in itself does not change.
Exotic weapon, improved critical, weapon focus, weapon specialization and the like are different in that regard.
That said :
Versatile fighter is a houserule I already applied for everyone not just human fighters, though exotic requires martial weapon prof first.
Dervish Dance, likewise the only reason to restrict it is fluff as far as I can tell.
No it is exactly what the text says, most combat feats (as in almost all) don't specifically call out a weapon in the benefit text. Reason being they are written to be used for multiple weapons, dervish dance has specific text and even if you "use it" on a weapon in the weapon group the text doesn't change, so you get an oddity RAW. You use dervish dance with shortswords but the feat text still explicitly states scimitar, so it doesn't actually do anything for shortswords.
I have no problem with using it the way the OP brought up, but RAW it doesn't hold up due to specific wording in dervish dance.
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Here are a few fun clarifications from Jason Nelson over here in this thread (also summarized below for your convenience).
LV10 Eldritch Knights rejoice as their single level in fighter allows them to take this feat. Every time your BAB goes up as you level, simply change it to the best available crit featGiven the way Critical feat prerequisites work, I find Critical Versatility to be horrendously overpowered. No Human fighter would ever choose anything else, except to pair with it with Critical Mastery, or as a prerequisite.I thought the same thing.
I currently have a crit focused figher and plan to take 4 different crit feats + crit mastery.
as it is now I can take crit versatility and one other. and get access to all of them.
having said that I dont think its game breaking.
I just wish it were not so fighter focused.
what about rangers or monks? or a caster versatility feat perhaps allowing a caster to have only 1 bad school instead of 2. Rogues, Summoners, witches. will there be one for every class or class type?
Seems fair enough. He'll be at least 16th level in total, with a BAB that's 3 points behind the fighter anyhow, vs. an 11th level fighter.
It's fighter focused just so fighters get more happy happy joy joy.
It doesn't let you get any crit feats for which you don't have prereqs.
It doesn't let you use multiple crit feats during the course of a combat.
Is it a good feat? Sure. I'd hope so. You'd like to think high-level fighters can get at least a few nice things. Is this feat better than a 6th level spell that a cleric or wizard could get at 11th? Better than heal or disintegrate? Doesn't seem like it.
With the caveat, as always, that I don't provide official errata but only unofficial authorial clarification (and agreeing with several posters upthread who note that things sometimes, even often, DO get changed for all kinds of reasons between turnover and publication), my opinion on RD's questions would be as follows:
Does Martial Versatility/Mastery help me qualify for things?Only things that require MV/MM as a prerequisite.
Say there is a prestige class that requires Weapon Focus (longsword). I have Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Martial Versatility (weapon focus).
Does that allow me to get into the prestige class as if I had Weapon Focus (longsword)?
No. You don't have the feat WF (longsword). You are able to apply the benefit of the feat you DO have (WF (greatsword)) to all weapons in the same group, which includes longsword. While the mechanical benefits are identical to having WF (longsword), you still don't have the actual feat.
Now, that stated, I'm usually in favor of martials having nice things, so I don't think there's any grave harm allowing it to serve as a prereq.
Also, what happens if a weapon falls into more than one group? Say I have Weapon Focus (trident), for example; does that mean that I would get a +1 bonus to hit with the weapons from the spear group AND the thrown weapons group?Yes. Encourages you to take feats in versatile weapons, doesn't it?
What's more, if I have Weapon Focus in both the greataxe AND the greatsword, can I take Martial Versatility once (choosing Weapon Focus) to get Weapon Focus with ALL axes AND heavy blades?This is a bit trickier to answer, because it depends on whether you consider Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Weapon Focus (greataxe) one feat or two feats.
As a GM, I'd consider it two separate feats, so you'd have to take MV separately for each. However, as I noted above, I think fighters should have nice things, and...
I think the EWP trick is an entirely reasonable application of Martial Versatility; in fact, I think it's a perfect example of what a fighter should be able to do with the feat.
So I take it that MV/MM aren't intended to allow using Dervish Dance with any 1-handable Heavy Blade?That is correct.
Actually, there's quite a good reason to do this given the second point. The chakram, for instance, is a martial weapon that belongs to the heavy blades, light blades, and thrown group, so if you wanted to get proficiency with exotic weapons in all those groups at once, you might take Martial Weapon Proficiency: Chakram despite its apparent redundancy.
...
I'm going to quote Jason Nelson earlier in this thread real quick here: "You don't have the feat WF (longsword). You are able to apply the benefit of the feat you DO have (WF (greatsword)) to all weapons in the same group, which includes longsword. While the mechanical benefits are identical to having WF (longsword), you still don't have the actual feat. "
You aren't getting the feat Martial Weapon Proficiency (Bola), which as you correctly assess does not exist. You are applying the benefit of the feat you do have (Martial Weapon Proficiency (Chakram)) to all weapons in the same group. The benefit of...
Obviously, I don't see it that way. You aren't treated as having the benefits (that is, proficiency), you are treated as having the benefits of Martial Weapon Proficiency (not the feat, but the benefits of the feat). Since there is nothing to be gained by having the benefits of MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY in an exotic weapon, nothing changes, you don't gain the proficiency.
I hope I'm making myself clear, as I'm having difficulty phrasing it.
I think I'd have to side with RD on this one. Having the benefits of the feat "Martial Weapon Proficiency" doesn't help you when trying to use a bola (or any other exotic weapon), since it's not a martial weapon. There is no benefit to having martial weapon proficiency with an exotic weapon, so even though you do "get the benefit" of the MWP feat with other weapons in the chakram's group, it's a benefit that does nothing for weapons that aren't martial.
If you were, say, a cleric of a deity for whom chakram was a favored weapon, you could try to make...
On the matter of weapon groups, it clearly stipulates that the weapon groups are those listed on page 45 of Ultimate Combat; i.e., heavy blades, light blades, bows, close weapons, monk weapons, etc.
Simple/martial/exotic are not weapon groups as found on page 45 of Ultimate Combat (they are categories of weapon), therefore they are not valid "weapon groups" for the purpose of the feat.
Also, on the matter of "hey, I can take Net Adept and apply it to any thrown weapon," I would opine that you are taking a large stretch with the phrase "feat that applies to a single weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus)."
You could argue that Net Adept works with nets, therefore it only "applies to a single weapon." I would hope that calling out Weapon Focus as a specific example is sufficient to demonstrate that the intent of the feat is to apply to any feat for which a single weapon must be specifically selected in order for the feat to apply to that weapon. Nomenclaturally, any feat that requires you to put the name of a specific weapon in parentheses after it (for example, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Close-Quarters Thrower) is what is intended as "feat that applies to a single weapon." To use a specific example of what I meant by that phrase, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net) would be valid, while Net Adept would not.
Perhaps this points up the near-impossibility of phrasing a rule in such a way that no one will propose an alternate interpretation or an attempted exploit for it without (or perhaps even with) extensive legalese appended.
However you play it, by all means have fun!
Can the Corsair archetype from Pirates of the Inner Sea use MM/MV with its "pirate weapon group?"That'd be a GM call. I haven't read the archetype, but if the "pirate weapons" group is presented as a weapon group for the purpose of weapon training (the fighter class ability), then it seems reasonable to allow it. On the other hand, if it's just a bunch of pirate-themed weapon (like, say, the weapon list of a ninja is a list of ninja-themed weapons but not actually codified as a fighter weapon training "weapon group"), then I'd say no.
Still seems like Hamatulatsu is acceptable by those posts.
So, to OP: That is not RAI.
Am I correct in all this?
Hamatulatsu has the same issue as dervish dance, it can only be applied to unarmed strike. If it was to be applied to any single piercing weapon it would be acceptable if the weapons were in the same weapon group.
Edit : reading the above replies I should correct myself, I do not grant the martial versatility feat for free, rather I simply have feats for which you select a single weapon apply to weapon groups instead.
Yeah, Martial Mastery is pretty obviously meant to apply to Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, not Dervish Dance.
Played as intended, it's a g~@ d@!n terrible feat. Martial Versatility, the lvl 16 feat, would be pretty decent for a restricted lvl 4 feat, but Martial Mastery, as intended, is nothing but a slap in the face.
Also, has *nobody* at paizo read 3.5 optimization forums ever? Aptitude weapons, from Tome of Battle - sound familiar? It's a weapon quality rather than a feat, but it used the same sloppy writing to inspire the same (beautiful!) crazy ideas - 6 years ago.
Yeah, Martial Mastery is pretty obviously meant to apply to Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, not Dervish Dance.
Played as intended, it's a g$! d%+n terrible feat. Martial Versatility, the lvl 16 feat, would be pretty decent for a restricted lvl 4 feat, but Martial Mastery, as intended, is nothing but a slap in the face.
Agreed mostly, I rather would see that you could select a weapon group for it to work. Martial Mastery (Heavy Blades) would be fine, now it encourages focusing in weapons for the sole reason that they appear in multiple weapon groups.. that seems just wrong.
Having had Martial Versatility work by selecting one other weapon within the same group as your WF weapon, as Mastery gives you all weapons in the select group, that you can apply your feats to sounds like it would be better
So if you had WF & WS (Battle Axe), you could select selected MV (hand axe), you would get the benefits of your specific feats as if they applied to the hand-axe. dual weilding axes anyone?
If you took a trident, you could select a spear or thrown weapon to apply the feats to, but it's only one weapon you get to do it with.
(it does present an interesting twf Rapier/Kukri possibility that gets a little more damage than dual kukri's but at the cost of a feat so who cares)
Unarmed strike is also in the Close, and Monk weapon groups.
But scimitar is only in the Heavy Blades group. I don't see how Dervish could ever apply outside that group.
