In the Inner Sea guide Arodens domains are listed. However IDK if it has ever been stated in PF material that dead gods cannot grant spells. Could a Cleric still get spells from Aroden?
If the answer is no what do people here think about a feat that allows one to worship a dead god? Lost Empires of Faerun a 3.5 Forgotten Relams book had a feat that let you get spells form dead gods, and Powers of Faerun had a feat that let you follow a god and be a heretic.
My PCs are doing the king maker adventure and I was considering a NPC cleric who worships Aroden turning up and creating problems for them that they couldn't really solve by smacking him down.
Given that not a single one of Arodens Clerics have figured out how to regain spells (apart from converting to the worship of other Gods) then I would say such a feat is not legal in Golarion.
Well, the official answer is a resounding "no". Though you can't know it, it's been discussed often on these boards.
If you wished to use the Lost Empires of Faerun feat, in your own version of Golarion, though, go ahead. But for the purposes of of the campaign setting, it's going to cause some logical headaches later (as in, "Why don't all the would-be clerics take this feat?"). You could, of course, use another house rule to explain why it's so rare - possibly require a trip to the Eye of Abendigo, Pharasma's Boneyard, and/or other important places in order to do so. That would be an interesting character arc for the person in question.
As an alternate possibility, instead, may I suggest an Oracle? Or perhaps an Inquisitor? Neither Oracles nor Inquisitors, by campaign setting, need an actual patron, and since Inquisitors get a domain, that sounds like it would be perfect for the "Aroden flavor". Also, Inquisitors are a pretty powerful class, all told, and, as Aroden had so many different personas/guises he went around disguised with, an inquisitor who focused on bluff and disguise as class skills could make a perfect representative of Aroden.
Anyway, just a few thoughts.
The feat is an FR feat and yeah some Clerics of dead gods in both game rules and novels have been able to cast spells. It has not always been clear however if those clerics are casting those spells from their dead god or if another god has been granting those spells on their behalf or they have been faking it with magic items/artifacts.
A Cleric of Aroden could actually be getting the spells from somewhere else (and not know it) or could be posing as a cleric of Aroden and be getting spells from their own deity and have an uber bluff score.
I've always liked feats like that though or the heretic feat which had a Cleric of Lathender following Amauntor. They carried the idea over into 4th edition but I liked the idea of the dead god feat and heretic feat.
Heretic of the Faith
Power of Faerun pg 46
Servant of the Fallen
Lost Empires of Faerun
Page 9
Zardnaar, I actually know the feat in question. I have the book.
My interpretation has always been that what they're doing is tapping into the vestigial (is that spelling right? spellcheck says so...) remains of the god's divinity, in order to cast spells once again.
If you want this in your campaign, as James Jacobs (the guy effectively in charge of Golarion) has said (in paraphrase), it's your campaign, do it.
As far as how Golarion works with that feat as an option? It needs to be really obscure and have some pretty amazing prerequisites. Also, your guy is going to be the only guy in a century who's successfully managed to get spells out of Aroden. He'll likely have a cult spring up around him pretty instantly and powerfully.
If, instead, you'd prefer canon Golarion, I'd recommend the Inquisitor. They have amazing social, stealth, and deception skills, which is pretty perfect for someone pretending to follow a god he's not.
If you'd rather use a cleric with the feat, use a cleric with the feat. It's not canon, but that's okay with me! :)
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would also point out that it IS possible for a cleric to receive divine spell-casting power on the strength of his or her personal faith alone. A cleric is permitted under the rules of Pathfinder RPG to not worship any God and yet receive divine spells. While this is certainly an extremely rare exception to the rule, it is a permitted exception to the rule under RAW.
I take no issue with the fact that no cleric has been able to receive spells from Aroden since his disappearance and presumptive death. HOWEVER, that does not mean that a cleric who otherwise receives spells from "faith alone" might delude himself or herself into attributing the miraculous spell powers to the return of Aroden.
Faith when combined with excessive zealotry is one of the most powerful motivations known to mankind. Were such a cleric be able to "prove" to others of their ability to cast divine spells, that demonstration might stir others into believing the cleric that Aroden has, in fact, returned. The impact of that event could shake the very foundations of the rule of the Thrunes and plunge the Inner Sea into political turmoil.
Food for thought.
Where is the feat found?
The Servant of the Fallen Feat is on page 9 of Lost Empires of Faerun.
Perhaps there is a source the cleric is tapping into that has some link to Aroden? How cool would it be if you channeled the force and fury of the Eye of Abendego into divine power!
In certain settings, you could be a cleric that could worship multiple gods, or philosophies and the connected domain without a single god, but Jacobs has been reining that in for Golarion for quite some time. The clerics of the old ones have become clerics that must worship a single old one, and there was the hellknight polytheistic law faith that has also been changed to a grouping of clerics of multiple gods in cooperation.
I'd allow a cleric to worship the forces which Aroden formerly channelled, but this domains not gods approach isn't standard golarion. The gods use the powers, but the domains also exist without the gods and can move across gods. Because religions are more effective vectors for spreading belief and adherence to a god, I make them much more common in my settings, but domain clerics are still out there as I run it.
Steel wind has the ruling (good on you champ), Golarion the setting goes against this ruling.
Have Arodens domains ever been listed?
|
Actually there is something in the recent books that might lead to an interesting way to pull this off. You could theoretically make a sorcerer, go razmiran priest prestige class, and instead of saying he's pulling his power from his razmiran faith say he's a follower of the dead god of man and is pulling power from him. Problem is that he's too weak in the beginning to actually pull it off and is actually getting closer to the source of his power and faith as he levels. Something I was actually looking into using it for in my own homebrew setting as a way for scions and clerics of dead gods to try and channel the last vestiges of their lost or dead gods in the hopes of either resurrecting them or just keeping the faith alive.
Edit: Actually if you want to take this a step further I would go with the imperious bloodline as well as it just fits so well with the theme of the whole thing.
|
I would also point out that it IS possible for a cleric to receive divine spell-casting power on the strength of his or her personal faith alone. A cleric is permitted under the rules of Pathfinder RPG to not worship any God and yet receive divine spells. While this is certainly an extremely rare exception to the rule, it is a permitted exception to the rule under RAW.
I take no issue with the fact that no cleric has been able to receive spells from Aroden since his disappearance and presumptive death. HOWEVER, that does not mean that a cleric who otherwise receives spells from "faith alone" might delude himself or herself into attributing the miraculous spell powers to the return of Aroden.
Faith when combined with excessive zealotry is one of the most powerful motivations known to mankind. Were such a cleric be able to "prove" to others of their ability to cast divine spells, that demonstration might stir others into believing the cleric that Aroden has, in fact, returned. The impact of that event could shake the very foundations of the rule of the Thrunes and plunge the Inner Sea into political turmoil.
Food for thought.
Faith Based Casting is true in the base rules, but explicitly not allowed in Golarion, as per James
I would also point out that it IS possible for a cleric to receive divine spell-casting power on the strength of his or her personal faith alone. A cleric is permitted under the rules of Pathfinder RPG to not worship any God and yet receive divine spells. While this is certainly an extremely rare exception to the rule, it is a permitted exception to the rule under RAW.
I take no issue with the fact that no cleric has been able to receive spells from Aroden since his disappearance and presumptive death. HOWEVER, that does not mean that a cleric who otherwise receives spells from "faith alone" might delude himself or herself into attributing the miraculous spell powers to the return of Aroden.
Faith when combined with excessive zealotry is one of the most powerful motivations known to mankind. Were such a cleric be able to "prove" to others of their ability to cast divine spells, that demonstration might stir others into believing the cleric that Aroden has, in fact, returned. The impact of that event could shake the very foundations of the rule of the Thrunes and plunge the Inner Sea into political turmoil.
Food for thought.
Faith Based Casting is true in the base rules, but explicitly not allowed in Golarion, as per James
Exactly what I meant before. Yes, the Core Rulebook allows you to do so without a god at all, but in published Golarion, you're required to have a god. Similarly, actually, in Faerun. In 3.5 core rules (the Player's Handbook) you didn't have to have a god to be a cleric. But in FR, you weren't able to cast any divine spells without a specific, expressed patron, whether you were cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, shamman, or anything else. It didn't matter: no god, no divine spells. That's the reason for the feat Servant of the Fallen in the first place - to allow for a games-rules option of worshiping fallen gods (which, in FR, didn't work either).
However, Steel_Wind, it's worth noting that this is also why I said, "if it works for your campaign, do it". Because, if it works for one person's home campaign, then it should be done... for their home campaign. James has pretty much also said that we should run our own games the way we want/need to run them, too. Although, I've got to say, doc the grey's idea was pretty sweet as well.
The clerics that survived either converted to Iomedae's worship or retired from the game entirely.
Or, as in the case of Eleder's Baron in Sargava, continued to be a faithful priest, but just doesn't cast magic.
(EDIT to clarify: I'm not actually disagreeing with you, just pointing out that they haven't necessarily stopped believing or being all priestly, they've just mostly run out of worshipers and have no magic.)
I would also point out that it IS possible for a cleric to receive divine spell-casting power on the strength of his or her personal faith alone. A cleric is permitted under the rules of Pathfinder RPG to not worship any God and yet receive divine spells. While this is certainly an extremely rare exception to the rule, it is a permitted exception to the rule under RAW.
I take no issue with the fact that no cleric has been able to receive spells from Aroden since his disappearance and presumptive death. HOWEVER, that does not mean that a cleric who otherwise receives spells from "faith alone" might delude himself or herself into attributing the miraculous spell powers to the return of Aroden.
Faith when combined with excessive zealotry is one of the most powerful motivations known to mankind. Were such a cleric be able to "prove" to others of their ability to cast divine spells, that demonstration might stir others into believing the cleric that Aroden has, in fact, returned. The impact of that event could shake the very foundations of the rule of the Thrunes and plunge the Inner Sea into political turmoil.
Food for thought.
Faith Based Casting is true in the base rules, but explicitly not allowed in Golarion, as per JamesExactly what I meant before. Yes, the Core Rulebook allows you to do so without a god at all, but in published Golarion, you're required to have a god. Similarly, actually, in Faerun. In 3.5 core rules (the Player's Handbook) you didn't have to have a god to be a cleric. But in FR, you weren't able to cast any divine spells without a specific, expressed patron, whether you were cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, shamman, or anything else. It didn't matter: no god, no divine spells. That's the reason for the feat Servant of the Fallen in the first place - to allow for a games-rules option of worshiping fallen gods (which, in FR, didn't work either).
However, Steel_Wind, it's worth noting...
Servant of the Fallen wasn't a broken feat (it was actually kinda weak). FR had a tradition of dead gods granting spells going back to second edition. The SotF feat let you gain divine spells from a dead god, and once per day gian a +1 bonus to some skill check IIRC. It was mostly a roleplaying feat and I think its feasable for a new follower of Aroden to appear (just without magic).
Golarion isn't FR but I had some story arc plans once upon a time involving Lathendar that could carry over to Golarion. As I said I wouldn't mind knowing Arodens domains but I can't find them in PF material.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Servant of the Fallen wasn't a broken feat (it was actually kinda weak). FR had a tradition of dead gods granting spells going back to second edition. The SotF feat let you gain divine spells from a dead god, and once per day gian a +1 bonus to some skill check IIRC. It was mostly a roleplaying feat and I think its feasable for a new follower of Aroden to appear (just without magic).
Golarion isn't FR but I had some story arc plans once upon a time involving Lathendar that could carry over to Golarion. As I said I wouldn't mind knowing Arodens domains but I can't find them in PF material.
I... don't know where or how I suggested it was broken? The only thing I think I said was that it allowed something in FR that the original PH allowed anyway.
If you're asking for details (I thought you had them for some reason), here you go:
You keep alive the worship of a deity who has died or vanished. You faith in the fallen deity allows you to wield divine magic in his or her name.
Prerequisites: Cleric level 1st, dead or forgotten god (for example, Amaunator, Bhaal, Moander, or Myrkul) as you patron deity.
Benefit: You can name a dead god as your patron deity and still recieve your cleric spells normally. In addition, you can call upon the universal remnant of your deity's power to gain a +1 luck bonus on any single die roll. You can also be raised or resurrected normally.
Normal: Dead of fallen deities cannot grant cleric spells, so clerics who choose such patrons do not normally recieve spells. Characters who do not worship active gods in Faerun suffer the fate of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane after death.
Special: You can take this feat only once. Choosing this feat changes your patron from your previous deity to the dead or forgotten deity of your choice, and you take no penalties for making this change. If you later choose a different patron deity, you lost the benefit of this feat, but your new patron may grant you spells just as he or she would for any other cleric.
See Ancient Deities, pag 41, for a list of notable dead gods, their alignments, and their domains.
The +1 luck bonus is actually really nice, because it doesn't specify the kind of dice. So long as you roll a dice, for any given day, you can gain a +1 bonus. It's not even an action, so you don't have to specify until you see the end result. That's... nice. But no, it's not the most powerful feat in the world, and mostly serves to make a given Forgotten Realms divine caster nearly equal in options as a normal divine caster according to the core 3.5 Rules.
Also, you apparently didn't follow my link to Aroden earlier. All his domains are right there. That's all official Pathfinder stuff.
(Worth noting, if you didn't, you really should check out both the inquisitor class and the oracle class before settling on a cleric. Especially, if you're going to focus on subterfuge-style skills, the inquisitor is quite useful. I'm not saying you should use those classes, but definitely look at them.)
Since I notice that even though you've been around a while, you mostly lurk, just in case you're unaware, in order to follow a link, use your mouse pointer over the blue text (specifically in my post, the words "Aroden", "inquisitor", and "oracle", though not in this sentence). If you want to leave this window open, then you can right-click the words and choose "open new tab" (usually recommended) or "open new window" (I tend to find that clunkier). Anyway, that opens the link. I've linked to two different Paizo-approved sites: one is the d20PFSRD* (inquisitor and oracle, above), the other is the Pathfinder Wiki (Aroden above). You can google either of those, if you like, and, if you have any sort of antivirus program, it'll tell you about how trusted the site is. McAffee (my antivirus) trusts the d20PFSRD, but no one has tested the Pathfinder Wiki for them. I've never had problems with it, though.
Here's his stuff, if you'd rather not go to the wiki:
Titles: Last of the First Humans, The Last AzlantiHome: Aroden's Domain, Axis
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Portfolio: Human culture, Innovation, History
Worshipers: Aroden has few worshipers now, as he is dead (formerly Absalom, Andoran, Cheliax, Sargava, Taldor, Varisia)
Domains: Glory, Knowledge, Law, Protection
Favored Weapon: longsword
Anyway, good gaming!
Yeah I kinda lurked for a few years seeing how the PF/4th ed thing would pan out. Gave up on 4th ed and played Star Wars Saga for a few years before switching over to PF late last year although I bought some PF PDFs off this site back in 2009.
I've always liked feats like that though or the heretic feat which had a Cleric of Lathender following Amauntor. They carried the idea over into 4th edition but I liked the idea of the dead god feat and heretic feat.
There is a feat in the 3.5 City of Splendors: Waterdeep book called Veil of Cyric, basically you dont register as evil unless the caster is high level than you. Also in the book is a delusional Paladin of Tyr NPC with that feat, who is CE, but THINKS he is still LG..."Sir Gareth has never admitted even to himself that he no longer follow the teachings of Tyr, constructing elaborate rationalizations and falling back on willful ignorance to justify his actions to himself and others." I always thought this was awesome.
Yeah I kinda lurked for a few years seeing how the PF/4th ed thing would pan out. Gave up on 4th ed and played Star Wars Saga for a few years before switching over to PF late last year although I bought some PF PDFs off this site back in 2009.
That's fine! I'm glad to see you around. Sometimes I go into periods of lurking or even just not being around, too.
I made the explanations just because sometimes people expect you to know things that you've got no way of knowing.
When I first started here, I had no idea what all the short-hand phrases were, like "IMC" ("In My Campaign"), or "IMO" ("In My Opinion" - sometimes with an "H" for "Humble" thrown in), or the like, either, until someone explained them to me.
Heck, I'm still not sure if "OP" means the "Original Poster" or "Original Post". I think far more likely, due to the way it's used, it's just become a context-sensitive word (in other words, it can refer either to the original post, or the original posters, depending on how it's used).
Anyway, good gaming!
(And did that Gareth-guy become a blackguard, lose his powers, or what? 'Cause that's pretty far afield for Forgotten Realms.)
I've always liked feats like that though or the heretic feat which had a Cleric of Lathender following Amauntor. They carried the idea over into 4th edition but I liked the idea of the dead god feat and heretic feat.There is a feat in the 3.5 City of Splendors: Waterdeep book called Veil of Cyric, basically you dont register as evil unless the caster is high level than you. Also in the book is a delusional Paladin of Tyr NPC with that feat, who is CE, but THINKS he is still LG..."Sir Gareth has never admitted even to himself that he no longer follow the teachings of Tyr, constructing elaborate rationalizations and falling back on willful ignorance to justify his actions to himself and others." I always thought this was awesome.
Yeah its small nuggets like that which caused me to like FR. Don't me me started on 4t ed FR lol. I almost never played FR but often mined it for ideas.