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The other day I was chatting with a person who has never played Pathfinder before about the summoner, which he likes because apparently there's some kind of summoning magic in Skyrim that he thinks is similar to the class.
Anyway, while he was reading the evolutions, we both got bored and decided to discuss how to tack on as many crazy evolutions as possible in order to get the most ridiculous-looking beast imaginable. (We decided on an 8 legged spider with the limb (arms) evolution and weapon training in order to hold a longbow above its head. Different than a drider, just a spider with arms randomly sticking out of its head. Also a tail with a stinger that has the Push evolution and the Major Magic evolution [Scorching Ray] that it would shoot out of its stinger. Wings, gills, scent, keen scent, Skilled (Disguise), a second head on its underbelly, swim (But not climb! That would be stupid!), elemental attacks (Electricity), and shadow blend).
That got me thinking. I want a spider. So I'm trying to figure out how to best make a spider eidolon. The problem is that it really doesn't take that much, and so I run out of things to spend my evolution points on.
Here's my evolution points. As a Wild-Caller half-elf (Racial archetype that gives 1/4 extra evolution points but restricts what evolutions you can take) stacking with the half-elf favored class bonus (1/4 extra evolution points), and 4 iterations of the Extra Evolution feat (you can't take the last one, since you don't get a feat slot at 20th level), my summoner has a total of 40 evolution points to spend.
Here are the evolutions that are completely necessary in order to be a spider (Assuming Quadruped Base)-
Limbs x2 (Legs)- Gives my eidolon a total base land speed of 60'. Also some seriously messed up bonuses versus trip, and of course, you have to have eight legs to be a spider. (Total cost- 4 points)
Climb- Spiders can climb. The climb speed is equal to your land speed, so my spider eidolon can actually climb at a total speed of 60'. Really nice. (Total cost- 1 point)
Web- Self-explanatory. The limitation of 8 uses per day makes me a sad sad half-elf. (Total cost- 3 points)
Poison (Bite)- Here we're going for Con poison, as it is deadly and deadly spiders are better than debilitating spiders. Also, Con poison is horrendously overpowered since each failed save makes it harder for you to succeed the next save. (Total cost- 4 points)
Tremorsense- Spiders get this. It's a very nice ability, I think. (Total cost- 2 points).
So those are the things I feel are necessary in order to get a spider. And it only costs me 14 points. So we move on to the flavor stuff.
Huge- There's no reason to have a spider if it isn't enormous and freaking people out. Combine with enlarge person for a Gargantuan spider and win Pathfinder. (Total cost- 10 points)
Grab (Bite)- See below. (Total cost- 2 points)
Swallow Whole- The only thing that will scare the out-of-character people at your table more than allying themselves with a Gargantuan spider is allying themselves with a Gargantuan spider that devours its prey. With the impressive Strength and Size bonus that Huge gives, plus full BAB and the bonus from Grab, spider's grapple checks should be pretty decent. And since he's Gargantuan, he can easily devour Huge and smaller creatures, which is the majority of what you will be fighting in the game. (Total cost- 3 points)
Those make my spider more awesome, which is great, but that's still only 29 points. So I'll attempt to fill the rest out myself right here.
Improved Damage (Bite)- The spider only has one natural attack to its name. (Albeit at an incredible Strength bonus, which it gets 1.5x since it's the eidolon's only natural attack. Plus, thanks to the 9th level summoner feature Multiattack, the eidolon gets its bite twice per round). (Total cost- 1 point)
Improved Natural Armor x5- Being a giant spider is awesome, but it kind of tanks your AC what with the -4 Size penalty and the hit to your Dex. The best way to fix that is with +10 natural armor! (Just hope you don't run into any guys with touch attacks). (Total cost- 5 points)
And...I hit a wall! That's 35 points spent, and I don't know what else to give it. So, I turn to you, Paizo.com. What do you guys think I should do with my spider? Do you have any suggestions for how to make him more spider-y? (Also, I've never played a game where a Gargantuan creature would be a problem, save the Council of Thieves game I'm in right now, and that's just obvious. So, maybe it's just me, but I really don't see all the dungeon-crawling that people fear at actual tables, most of my fights take place in forests or plains. Different DMs, I guess.)
Unless my brain is worse than i think it is you only have 1 point left at lvl 20 (26 +5 half elf, +5 Wild Caller) so 'd just take pounce and get your 2 bites when charging.
Edit i forgot the feats :) so one for pounce and either 4 for +2 strength or get you -4 dex back with two dex boosts.
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Unless my brain is worse than i think it is you only have 1 point left at lvl 20 (26 +5 half elf, +5 Wild Caller) so 'd just take pounce and get your 2 bites when charging.
Edit i forgot the feats :) so one for pounce and either 4 for +2 strength or get you -4 dex back with two dex boosts.
Pounce doesn't really help though. I've only got two attacks, one at a -5 penalty. It's not really going to help me any more to get a second attack in the round. Pounce is worth it when you have 4-6 attacks per round, but just one more at a -5 penalty doesn't seem like it'd be all that helpful.
Plus...Gargantuan quadrupeds have 15' reach. So it'll be a piece of cake for me to get full attacks anyway by nature of things coming at me.
And...stat boosts? Meh. I guess that's fine. I just wish there were more spider-y traits for me to emulate.
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You could always ask if you can take web twice to get more uses.
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You could always ask if you can take web twice to get more uses.
! That's...that's brilliant! Hey, thanks a lot Bertious, I never even thought of that!
Web costs 3 points, so if I spend another 3 points I'll have 2 left, but I could get probably 12-16 total daily uses of it. Very nice.
And that leaves me with 2 points left. I guess Ability Increase (Dexterity) would be a good enough investment. Thanks for the help.
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I'm curious why Enlarge Person and the Huge evolution make a gargantuan eidolon?
The enlarge person spell does not increase a creature's Size to Large, it increases a creature's Size to the next highest Size category.
The Huge evolution makes the eidolon a Huge creature. It is not a magical size increase, it just changes the eidolon's base Size to Huge. Then enlarge person increases that to Gargantuan, which is the next size above Huge.
As for why you can affect an eidolon, which is an outsider, with the enlarge person spell, that is due to the Share Spells feature of the eidolon, which all eidolons get at 1st level.
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Flavor it as a giant mechanical spider and you can be the villain from "Wild Wild West".
I'd like to point out that there is no reason not to flavor 4 mechanical legs as eight. I certainly flavored four legs as 143 legs once.
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You could just go Druid, nab a Spider companion, and focus on summoning.
Very easy to do with a Druid.
The druid's spider does not grow any bigger than Medium. It does not possess the Web special attack. It has a pitiful Strength score and its poison attack never grows any stronger than 1 Str damage per round. It also can't take feats or get skill points unless you spend ability points in it, which delays the spider's Strength score increase even further.
It's very easy to build a spider eidolon with a summoner as well, and you get a lot more power behind it.
Plus, anything a druid can summon, a wild caller can summon better, so...
As for enlarge person, if you have no intent of making it permanent, you might want to look at animal growth. Its not on your spell list, but is wandable, grants larger bonuses to str and con and ac, actually you know what, stick with permanent enlarge person...
As for other evolutions, some to consider would be pincers (on your feet), reach on your bite, con ability increase (for your poison attack dcs and your web dcs), see in darkness, as spiders can see well at night, shadow blend and skill focus (stealth) because even tho you are a monstrous giant devouring spider, you can still be sneaky!
I have to say that this definitely does win pathfinder :D In fact this idea is so good, I might have to look at a summoner just for this!
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Why make an Outsider as a giant spider if you're not going to call it Shelob?
Maybe you can exchange the four additional legs with four arms; visually, they'll look the same, but instead of increased speed you get four appendages to which you can attach slam or claw attacks. Then improve the damage of those attacks. Add maybe acid or cold damage.
Anyway:
As for why you can affect an eidolon, which is an outsider, with the enlarge person spell, that is due to the Share Spells feature of the eidolon, which all eidolons get at 1st level.
Do you have a link to prove this is legal?
Because Share Spells says "The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider)."Bold part: only those spells that normally you can't cast on anyone other than yourself.
Enlarge Person has a target of "one humanoid creature", not just "you".
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Change the legs to arms, add slams or claws, get acid or cold damage
The increased speed is probably better, since neither Huge nor enlarge person increases your creature's base speed. I mean, what kind of Gargantuan creature can only move 80' per round? That's just lame.
Also, the Elemental Attacks evolution is not allowed to be used when you are a Wild Caller (any "magical" evolutions are banned, but you get more evolution points to spend on non-magical ones).
Do you have a link to prove this is legal?
Because Share Spells says "The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider)."
Bold part: only those spells that normally you can't cast on anyone other than yourself.
Enlarge Person has a target of "one humanoid creature", not just "you".
I don't need a link. You just proved it yourself. Look at the second sentence, the one you didn't bold. "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider)."
The enlarge person spell normally doesn't affect outsiders, but the summoner gets to ignore that little restriction for his eidolon only. Because of the Share Spells feature.
As for other evolutions, some to consider would be pincers (on your feet), reach on your bite, con ability increase (for your poison attack dcs and your web dcs), see in darkness, as spiders can see well at night, shadow blend and skill focus (stealth) because even tho you are a monstrous giant devouring spider, you can still be sneaky!
I think you might be fighting a losing battle there, man. Being Gargantuan gives you a -12 Size penalty to Stealth checks, even with Skilled (Stealth) you're still taking a -4 penalty. And what is going to give a Gargantuan creature cover anyway? Heh.
I'd personally go Skilled (Perception), since the bonus is conveniently, +8, you can say that's how you're showing your spider has 8 eyes.
Reach on your bite isn't really necessary, since you're already Gargantuan, your natural reach is 15'. Spending another point to make it 20' won't really make a difference.
Con increase is smart. Pincers might work, but I wouldn't use them personally.
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Okay, so I figured out evolutions. Now it's time to see what kind of scores and feats my spider will have.
Str 14 (Base) +8 (Summoner) +16 (Huge) +6 (Belt of Physical Perfection) +2 (Enlarge Person) = 46
Dex 14 (Base) +8 (Summoner) -4 Dex +6 (Belt of Physical Perfection) -2 (Enlarge Person)= 22
Con 13 (Base) +8 (Huge) +6 (Belt of Physical Perfection) +3 (Ability Score Increase)= 30
AC= (10- 4 Size +6 Dex +33 Natural)= 45
Natural Armor Breakdown= 2 (Base) +16 (Summoner) +10 (Improved Natural Armor x5) + 5 (Huge)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Ability Focus (Poison), Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Critical (Bite), Critical Focus, Blinding Critical
I don't need a link. You just proved it yourself. Look at the second sentence, the one you didn't bold. "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider)."
The enlarge person spell normally doesn't affect outsiders, but the summoner gets to ignore that little restriction for his eidolon only. Because of the Share Spells feature.
Doesn't that refer to the first sentence? It doesn't say "in addition" or anything like that.
Ac = 49 you forgot the cheeky mage armor :D
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Doesn't that refer to the first sentence? It doesn't say "in addition" or anything like that.
If it referred to the first sentence, it would need a pronoun such as "these spells". It just says "spells". Furthermore, there are no spells with a target of "You" that do not affect certain types of creatures. All spells with a range of personal can affect any type of creature (the caster).
Spells that fail to affect a creature based on creature type are spells like enlarge person, dominate person, animal growth, charm animal, and etc.
Ac = 49 you forgot the cheeky mage armor :D
Hmm...I guess at 20th level I could spare the first level spell slot, but summoners really don't get that many spells per day.
Well 20k gets the summoner a ring of Wizardy 1 that now gives him 10 lvl 1 spells + bonuses or if you wanna splash out 33.6% of your WBL (295000 gp) at 20th you could get a ring of wizardry that does the same for levels 1-4.
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Well 20k gets the summoner a ring of Wizardy 1 that now gives him 10 lvl 1 spells + bonuses or if you wanna splash out 33.6% of your WBL (295000 gp) at 20th you could get a ring of wizardry that does the same for levels 1-4.
Oh, I wouldn't spend any money on my summoner. My summoner would only be there to support my eidolon. He'll have the same scores as he did at first level (plus level bonuses) and the only way he'll have more impressive gear is if the DM gives it to us as treasure. Any gold I get is going right to my eidolon, because he's the real character. The summoner is just there to give him extra evolutions and cast evolution surge, rejuvenate eidolon and haste.
As for enlarge person, if you have no intent of making it permanent, you might want to look at animal growth. Its not on your spell list, but is wandable, grants larger bonuses to str and con and ac, actually you know what, stick with permanent enlarge person...
Animal Growth would now have worked anyway -- the eidolon is not an animal, and because Animal Growth is not a summoner spell, Share Spell will not let it affect an eidolon.
Don't forget at level 20 you can also be your eidolon for double fun.
Good call on the animal growth. as for shadow blend and shadow form, cover has nothing to do with it. If it is not full daylight outside, you get concealment (something that would be pretty hard to get normally as a gargantuan creature)I would personally just take shadow blend for 20% miss chance and not shadow form because of the half damage to corporeal creatures. I like the skill focus (perception) thematically as well!
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Good call on the animal growth. as for shadow blend and shadow form, cover has nothing to do with it. If it is not full daylight outside, you get concealment (something that would be pretty hard to get normally as a gargantuan creature)I would personally just take shadow blend for 20% miss chance and not shadow form because of the half damage to corporeal creatures. I like the skill focus (perception) thematically as well!
Shadow Blend goes on all of my synthesists. It's like Improved Uncanny Dodge on crack.
DM: Okay, this rogue flanks you.
Me: I have concealment.
DM: It's only 20%. I rolled it, I hit, so now you're going to take a fistful of d6.
Me: It doesn't matter if he hits my concealment. Rogues are completely unable to Sneak Attack a creature with concealment regardless of whether they penetrate the miss chance or not.
DM: ...RAGE!
Wow, I never knew that... Thats brutal, another chip in the already half demolished statue that is sneak attack. Better hope that rogue does not have improved precise shot :P
Im really liking this, what other ideas we got?
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Well, that depends. If you have a DM who's crazy and will allow you to choose "thematically appropriate" alternative spells for the Magic features, you could always give your eidolon the ability to cast vomit swarm (spiders only) for a Broodmother type effect.