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So, this is a very queer situation, and would like to know how this would be handled with RAW.
Aasamir, with the alternate racial trait Scion of Humanity, and the Racial Heritage(Half Orc) feat.
Now, someone casts Half-Blood Extraction upon this PC.
What happens?
How are stats effected?
How are feats effected?
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Huh, that is an odd one. Not 100% sure I'm following RAW correctly, but as far as I figure:
The Aasimar counts as a half-orc for purposes of spells, so he/she can be targeted, assuming he/she is willing. The spell takes effect.
You transform the target half-orc into a full-blooded orc.
The target will physically be transformed into a full orc.
The target loses all of its half-orc racial traits
Which you don't have, unless you selected a half-orc racial trait such as Outcast using Racial Heritage, so you lose nothing or next to nothing.
and gains the orc racial traits.
+4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma (Net +4 Str, -2 Int), Ferocity, Weapon Familiarity, Darkvision, and Light Sensitivity. Possibly alternate racial traits if the DM allows, Dayrunner being a strong option.
Descriptively speaking, what you get is an orcish aasimar, a full orc with a trace of celestial blood. RAW, they still count as human and half-orc because the Scion of Humanity trait and the Racial Heritage feat are never explicitly lost. That doesn't make sense, but it's about the only part of this whole procedure that actually strains my common sense to think about.
Actually, wouldn't the unfortunate character no longer qualify for the scion of humanity trait, and thus also fail to qualify for the racial heritage feat (and thus lose the benefit of the feat)?
My brain hurts after reading that.
Edit: That was in response to Weirdo's post.
Actually you no longer need a boon to play an aasimar as of Season 4.
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You become an orc, then have feats you do not qualify for and are not a legal PFS character.
Congratulations. You discovered a way to quit.
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Do mental stats change? I figured they stayed, much like Reincarnate.
You would definitely take all of the stat changes of an Orc, so yes the mental stats would each go down by two. No, the spell is not legal for PFS.
... all half-orc spells except half-blood extraction are legal for play...
They are still legal targets for the spell.
I would think the spell would turn them into an orc. It would strip out both of the feats that you mention since the Orc no longer qualifies for them and it would strip out any Assimar only traits as well since the character no longer qualifies for them.
Since they qualify for the spell as an Aasimar, given the feat and trait combo's you post above, I would treat all the Aasimar traits as half orc traits for the purpose of the spell. Seems to be the fairest way to treat the spells result.
Seems a waste of a perfectly good Aasimar to me though.
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So, this is a very queer situation, and would like to know how this would be handled with RAW.
Aasamir, with the alternate racial trait Scion of Humanity, and the Racial Heritage(Half Orc) feat.
Now, someone casts Half-Blood Extraction upon this PC.What happens?
How are stats effected?
How are feats effected?
Where is Racial Heritage (Half-Orc)? I can't seem to find this entry.
WW.
Ah, there's the issue - half-orc is not a valid race for racial heritage - it is already a half-and-half race.
EDIT: you could choose Racial Heritage (orc), but that invalidates the spell use anyway.
I don't know about that... Half-Orc is listed as a race, and is humanoid. If they weren't their own race, they would be listed as a racial archetype of Human, would they not?
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Hrm, so using Racial Heritage you are also considered to be Half-Orc as that is a valid subtype of humanoid.
Edit:
Hrm I wouldn't allow(I think) it because of this:
Half-Orc
Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes.
I wouldn't let you be considered a true half-orc without having "orc" subtype, and if you already had orc subtype you wouldn't be an aasimar to begin with.
I dunno, I'm on the fence, I guess if I was a GM it would come down to intent, though I'd heavily lean on a no to this, it smacks of bad mojo.
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Orc is as much a player race as Aasamir.
Not a core race, and typically seem as a 'monster' race, and then only if the GM allows it.
Why not just ask to play an Orc, and skip all this math and nonsense? That's the ultimate end for this build isn't it?
When a player fights this hard to be right, even if he is, it's not usually for the right reasons.
i.e. random player says: "I just don't want to be a full blooded Orc, I found a way to get wings, spell resistance, flying and be an Orc woo!"
Again, I agree you've found an interesting loophole to start Aasimar and end up Orc by what is really abusing the system, and abusing it hard. :)
As a player I applaud your power move, as a GM I would never allow it to go this far.
Well, a GM can disallow anything, so it's irrelevant.
I also just realized a wizard can cast Half-Blood Extraction on his familiar.
If his familiar is a half orc...?
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Well, a GM can disallow anything, so it's irrelevant.
I also just realized a wizard can cast Half-Blood Extraction on his familiar.
Like I said in the other thread, it would have no effect on the familiar since the spell description specifically says "the target half-orc". You have to be considered a half-orc for the effect, not just to be a target of the spell.
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Hmm, yes, quite right.
Then again, it was ruled you could cast Enlarge Person on your familiar.
Still, most likely, it does not work.That's what Polymorph Any Object is for.
lets see the math using a cat as a familiar:
Cat base to Orc
Same Kingdom, both are from the animal kingdom. +5
Same Class, both are mammals +2
Not the same size +0
They are not related +0
They would not have the same Int (orcs are smarter) +0
So no, you couldn't do this either actually, as you need to have at least +9 in mods to make it permanent.
Ironically though, you could go Orc to Kitten, and make him one adorable little fellow with a bad attitude. I'd even allow the kitten to keep some of his prior perks like Orc Ferocity and Weapon Familiarity for kicks.
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It's almost as if the designers never have Racial Heritage feat in mind when they design things, wow!
Hmm, yes, quite right.
Then again, it was ruled you could cast Enlarge Person on your familiar.
Still, most likely, it does not work.
I was under the impression that that ruling only applied to a Summoner and their Eidolon since it has the unique exemption of being a valid target for spells that can affect the Summoner even if the Edolon's race/type does not match the spell limitations.
Or did I miss something?
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Hmm, yes, quite right.
Then again, it was ruled you could cast Enlarge Person on your familiar.
Still, most likely, it does not work.I was under the impression that that ruling only applied to a Summoner and their Eidolon since it has the unique exemption of being a valid target for spells that can affect the Summoner even if the Edolon's race/type does not match the spell limitations.
Or did I miss something?
You're correct.
Base Spell says:
Target: one humanoid creature
Which is trumped by the special rules for summoners casting summoner spells ala:
Share Spells (Ex)
1.) The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
and
2.) A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
So if casting summoner spells, Eidolons, for the most part, can be valid targets for those spells. Evil if they wouldn't normally be so if a Wizard cast the same spell.
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Assuming that Half-Orc is a valid choice for Racial Heritage, this is why I think it could work:
My brain hurts after reading that.
Failure of imagination, comrade.
If the end result confuses you, remember you can have a half-celestial orc. Why not an orcish aasimar in which the celestial blood has thinned through generations of orcs?
For the process: Aasimar + half orc – half-orc + full orc = Aasimar + full orc.
Actually, wouldn't the unfortunate character no longer qualify for the scion of humanity trait, and thus also fail to qualify for the racial heritage feat (and thus lose the benefit of the feat)?
You become an orc, then have feats you do not qualify for and are not a legal PFS character.
Except that you never lose your Aasimar racial traits or any racial identity other than half-orc. Therefore, you don't lose Scion of Humanity. Therefore, you still count as human when qualifying for Racial Heritage.
The only thing that Half Blood Extraction explicitly extracts is your half-orc racial traits. By common sense, also the half-orc racial identity in general, in which case Half-Blood Extraction used in this way replaces the usual benefits of Racial Heritage with Orc traits.
LazarX – As bbt said, they're still legal spell targets. The spell should at least take effect.
Do mental stats change? I figured they stayed, much like Reincarnate.
Actually, the fact that it's classified as a polymorph spell might support the idea that mental stats don't change, as polymorph spells generally don't affect mental properties.
However, given the text of the spell, I'd call this an exception. “Gain orc racial traits” includes all physical and mental traits, both strengths and weaknesses. You are not given the body of an orc; you are transformed into an orc. It would have been much too easy for the developers to say “all physical orc racial traits” for me to assume this was the intended meaning over “all traits.” It seems much more likely to me that the polymorph descriptor was used lightly and that the general polymorph rules were not intended to override the specific case of this spell (Baleful Polymorph being another specific case of a polymorph spell which is clearly capable of changing mental stats).
But at this point I might be going from RAW to RAI. With that in mind, The Big But:
You transform the target half-orc into a full-blooded orc.
If this is read as a technical description of the spell rather than as fluff text, “transform (target) into a full-blooded orc” could be read as “the end result is a full orc” regardless of the fact that the second sentence does not mention the loss of any non-half-orc abilities. In this case, you would indeed lose all Aasimar traits and would no longer be racially considered anything other than a half-orc.
Therefore, this again comes down to your DM.
If I were in the position of DM, I would allow the concept if not the exact resulting stats. An Aasimar who also had a trace of orcish blood (through Racial Heritage, whether Orc or Half-orc was selected) could seek out someone to magically extract their human heritage, leaving only the orcish and celestial blood. For balance reasons, this would not give you all the traits of both races – I'd use the race creation rules in the ARG as a starting point, perhaps allowing a bit of a boost such as an extra skill bonus to account for the 3,000 gold cost of the spell. From a fluff point of view, the surge of orcish blood would effectively overshadow some of the aasimar traits.
Not sure how I'd handle racial archetype stacking. I haven't played with those yet and don't know whether they'd have the potential to get ridiculous or broken if stacked.
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So, it's not a legal spell in PFS. Never let that stop a good argument!
You become an orc, then have feats you do not qualify for and are not a legal PFS character. Congratulations. You discovered a way to quit.
Well, at least until the end of the scenario, when the effects of the spell would end.
a race is a race is a race :)
doesn't matter what subraces it may be
A Half-Elf and Half-Orc are just as races as humans or dwarves, that they are called half-this or half-that doesn't make them a "non-race". They are humanoid, and a race, not plants, not animals, not rocks, not plastic.
Some here ride upon the "Half-naming" of the race, but a half-elf could just as well be called "feyborn" or "elfling"
both aasimars and half-orcs are races, not templates
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Even if he did take Racial Heritage, and picked (somehow) a subtype of human that doesn't exist in game, and if we are going to fine tooth comb the rules, wouldn't the scion alternate ability trump the Racial Heritage? He had that first and it states:
Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
I'd say this precedes it and when the spell is cast he simple isn't a half-orc, as this states he is a native outsider, and human.
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@EvilMinion: Are you saying Half-Orc and Half-Elves are not races, or that they are not humanoids?
I cannot see how you deem them an inappropriate choice for Racial Heritage. Being able to choose any of the core races is not only RAW, but most certainly RAI as well.
I see where you're going with that question, but half-elf and half-orc are not subtypes. So when you pick a race in this regards, you also add it's racial subtype as in the example of the dwarf, gaining the "dwarf" subtype.
Seeing as there is no racial subtype of half-elf or half-orc, you can't very well add it when choosing a humanoid race. I'd say Elf or Orc no problem though.
I think that is what I am hung up on. And until you explain how that works to me, I'm fairly sure you can't do it.