MLHagan you agree that bonus spells are the type of the caster, and I've already said how easy it is to add them to an individual caster's list. But you also said that because a spell has divine or arcane in its name that it is inherently a divine or arcane spell. If I take Pathfinder Savant and then take Divine Favor on my wizard with Esoteric Magic I treat it as my base casting class's type, so it's an arcane spell.
What I'm saying is: Just because it has arcane or divine in its name does not mean these spells are special and automatically the same type as the source of magic mentioned in their name. If I get Arcane Mark on my Cleric it's a divine spell. If I get any spell with 'divine' in its name on my Wizard it is an arcane spell.
MLHagan wrote: Awsome, where is it stated in any of the rule books that any spell list is arcane or divine? sure it specifies that a wizard cast arcane spells but where does it go on to say that a wizard spell list is arcane? It seams that calling a given spell list arcane or divine is nothing more than an extrapolation, interpitation and or misconception. MLHagan wrote: Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past. I guess since nothing says that any spell list is arcane or divine then they're all type-less. In which case Mystic Past Life does nothing. After all, lacking a type =/= being the same type.
MLHagan wrote: but lets go ahead and asume that you are correct for a moment, each and every spell on the wizard spell list (arcane spell caster) is available to the ancient lorekeeper (oracle and divine spell caster).
does that make the wizard spell list divine?
They're bonus arcane spells added to the ancient lorekeeper's spell list and cast as divine spells. Unfortunately, since the class list never gets them it's irrelevant.
MLHagan wrote: is there any question if an anchient lorekeeper can add fireball or shadow walk to their list of spells known? You know that as soon as you question if something is questioned it becomes questioned. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
They can add wizard/sorcerer spells to their spell list through Elven Arcana. This is not even a question of arcane vs divine. This is a specific class feature pulling spells from another class list and giving them as bonus spells to the Ancient Lorekeeper.
MLHagan wrote: if it is not a problem for an anchient lorekeeper to do this why would it be a problem for a reincarnated oracle to do the same? Because you refuse to accept that a spell from the class list of a typed caster is the type of the caster.
Btw, not good form to claim someone is inventing house rules and 'betraying' a book.
EDIT: I can't provide to you a piece of rules saying that a Wizard's spell list contains arcane spells or a Cleric's spell list is divine (though that is obviously the intent otherwise or so many things are superfluous or useless) because the assumption is that when it says '<class> casts <type> spells drawn from <class> list' that the spells on that list are that type.
I'll FAQ the first post though, since the base idea of your argument is right even if a lot of your points are erroneous.
Aioran wrote:
I guess since nothing says that any spell list is arcane or divine then they're all type-less. In which case Mystic Past Life does nothing. After all, lacking a type =/= being the same type.
Thus the confusion and the reason for this thread.
Mystic Past Life does not care or specifiy arcane/divine restrictions on spell casting class or spell list and is only worried about the spell itself as a restriction.
so going back to the name of this thread
What makes a divne spell divine
as far as i can tell its only the caster that makes that diffrence, therefore what ever spell a cleric selects they are casting it as a divine spell. Mystic Past Live does far from nothing, it has a self fullfill requirement.
Aioran wrote:
You know that as soon as you question if something is questioned it becomes questioned. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
it appears the same holds true for what makes a divine spell divine.
MLHagan, it is not a house rule. It is well established. The difference between an arcane and divine spell is what class is casting it.
CRB p206 wrote: Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). - Gauss
One last thing: Why dont you ask James Jacobs himself? HERE is the link.
- Gauss
Im amazed this is still going on. . .
Gauss wrote: MLHagan, it is not a house rule. It is well established. The difference between an arcane and divine spell is what class is casting it.
CRB p206 wrote: Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). - Gauss
yes, i agree that the casters in question cast there spells as arcane or divine however stating that there spell lists or that the spells on those list are arcane or divine is not part of the rules that i have found.
a great example of this would be cure light wounds, it can be cast by a cleric as a divine spell or it can be cast by a witch as an arcane spell. it the spell itselfs arcane or divine? well it can be either based on who is casting it.
an example of a spell list acting as both arcane and divine would be the ancheint lorekeeper, an oracle and divine caster that can choose spells from the wizard spell list and cast them as divine spells. that list acts as both arcane and divine once again depending upon who is casting the spells from it.
but thank you for the link, i will go ahead and ask James Jacobs about mystic past life and hopefully put this one to rest.
CRB p206 wrote: Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). - Gauss Oh wow, thank you so much Gauss. I hoped there was something but I couldn't find it.
Guess that solves that then.
EDIT: Nevermind, JJ can answer it.
The spell itself is neither arcane nor divine until you determine what class the person casting it (or scribing it in the case of a scroll) is. Then it becomes either arcane or divine.
To me Mystic Life seems clear, it states to pick a class. It then states the spell type (Arcane or Divine) must be the same as what you your existing class can already cast (Arcane or Divine). Since spell type is determined by class that means that the class must be the same type (Arcane or Divine) as your current class.
- Gauss
Actually, I go as far as to exclude any spells that are not on the 'default' class list you are picking from.
Which means: Choose from a class list. Any class list.
Domain spells, Witch Patron spells, Oracle Mystery bonus spells, Sorcerer Bloodline bonus spells, Eldritch Heritage bonus spells and the like are not eligible choices unless they were a part of the vanilla class list beforehand.
Sheesh, can't be that hard...
Yes, there are divine Fireballs. No, they are not on any divine caster's default class spell list, so your Samsaran druid won't get one.
(This aside... don't you love giving out divine scrolls of Fireball? Players are going to love you...)
Gauss wrote: The spell itself is neither arcane nor divine until you determine what class the person casting it (or scribing it in the case of a scroll) is. Then it becomes either arcane or divine.
To me Mystic Life seems clear, it states to pick a class. It then states the spell type (Arcane or Divine) must be the same as what you your existing class can already cast (Arcane or Divine). Since spell type is determined by class that means that the class must be the same type (Arcane or Divine) as your current class.
- Gauss
to me its pick a class, no limitation on divine or arcane
figure out how many spells you get
select the spells making sure that they do not conflict with your magic casting type.
spells like Detect Magic or Cure Light Wounds can be either divine or arcane so no limit there
spells like Arcane Mark and Divine Arrow are not flexable and are either arcane or divine based on the name
it may go even further and limit spells like Bestow Grace and Deafening Song Bolt based on there discription as either arcane or divine in nature.
in genreal it appears that the vast majority of spells can be cast either as divine spells or arcane depending on who is casting them. there are a few however that seam to be more limited in type such as Timely Inspiration or Searing Light. It appears that these are the indavidual spells that are intended to be limted and not the spell class or spell lists.
there is a post out to James Jacobs so we shall see.
"Mystic Past Live wrote: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. Another spellcasting class. One other spellcasting class.
"Mystic Past Live wrote: The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. CRB wrote: Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). So a spell cast by a bard is arcane. As is one cast by a witch.
A spell cast by a ranger, cleric or inquisitor is a divine spell.
So, what does this teach us?
1) Pick your class (the one you are going to add spells to).
2) Pick another class (arcane if you are an arcane caster yourself, divine if a divine caster yourself)
3) Choose (1+modifier) spells from that class's spell list.
4) Add them to your own class list.
5) Done.
Midnight_Angel wrote: "Mystic Past Live wrote: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. Another spellcasting class. One other spellcasting class.
"Mystic Past Live wrote: The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. CRB wrote: Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). So a spell cast by a bard is arcane. As is one cast by a witch.
A spell cast by a ranger, cleric or inquisitor is a divine spell.
So, what does this teach us?
1) Pick your class (the one you are going to add spells to).
2) Pick another class (arcane if you are an arcane caster yourself, divine if a divine caster yourself)
3) Choose (1+modifier) spells from that class's spell list.
4) Add them to your own class list.
5) Done.
Mystic Past life does not specify what kind of class you can choose from it just needs to be another class.
it does however specify what kinds of spells you can choose from that class, i'll call arcane magic "red" magic and divine magic "blue" magic, spells like cure light wounds or fireball can be cast as either divine or arcane so in effect they are both arcane and divine, a kind of purple magic if you will. either a divine caster or an arcane caster can select any of these purple magic spells from the spell list of the other class chosen because the can function as divine or arcane spells.
it appears that spells come in a full range of types between the blue divine magic and the red arcane magic. the only real limitation is not being able to select an exclusivly divine spell for arcane casters or vise versa.
there is however no limitation on what other spell casting class a given spell caster can choose from other than it needs to be a diffrent class than there own.
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Gauss wrote: A person is casting Cure Light Wounds.
Is it arcane? No.
Is it Divine? No.
Why? Because we have not seen what class is casting the spell.
...and that's why it's also called "Schroedinger's Cure Spell".
Cpt. Caboodle wrote: Gauss wrote: A person is casting Cure Light Wounds.
Is it arcane? No.
Is it Divine? No.
Why? Because we have not seen what class is casting the spell.
...and that's why it's also called "Schroedinger's Cure Spell". Awesome :) Thanks for the laugh.
- Gauss
MLHagan, this will be my last post on this topic. One more time:
Mystic Past Life wrote: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. Good, we add the spells from ONE spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. I think we agree here.
Mystic Past Life wrote: You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). Again, we have no disagreement here.
Mystic Past Life wrote:
The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to.
Now, here is where we run into trouble. All the way until we read this line:
CRB p256 wrote: Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). What does this line mean? It means that if a spell is cast by a Bard it is arcane. Bards cast Bard spells. Bard spells cast by Bards are arcane. Wow, easy.
So how does that affect this:
Mystic Past Life wrote:
The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to.
Well, it means that you must check the spell to see if it is arcane or divine. How do you check the spell? By checking the class it belongs to. If you chose Cure Light Wounds and you chose Bard then it is an arcane spell. If you chose Cure Light Wounds and you chose Cleric then it is a divine spell.
Note: If you chose a spell that is not on your Mystic Past Life class's spell list then you are violating the rules.
Follow these steps:
1) Choose your class
2) Choose your Mystic Past Life class.
3) Are both classes Arcane spellcasting classes? If yes proceed to 5. If no proceed to 4.
4) Are both classes Divine spellcasting classes? If yes proceed to 5. If no proceed to 1 and start over.
5) Choose spells on the default spell list of your Mystic Past Life class. The number of spells you may choose is 1+relevant ability modifier.
6) Enjoy breaking the game. :D
- Gauss
Gauss, it sounds like you want to rewrite the rule to read something along the lines of
”The spellcasting class you select the spells from must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, a cleric could not select the wizard class to add spells from because clerics cast divine spells and wizards cast arcane spells.”
But that’s not what Paizo chose to write, they could have, its easy enough to fallow, instead they chose to specify individual spells.
”The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.”
Why do you think Paizo chose to specify the individual spells if they didn’t mean individual spells?
Fine Ill bite: I don't need to rewrite the rule. It is fine as written. The CRB states what defines an arcane or divine spell is the class casting it. That makes it plenty clear to me. It seems to be clear to others as well.
- Gauss
A lot of talk about what this and that means, let me ask a question to get an idea of what most of you think.
I have an 7th level oracle, flame mystery. He can cast burning hands and fireball (traditional arcane spells). I also happen to have 6 ranks (not modified ranks) in Knowledge Arcane and speak draconic. Having this information, can I take a level in Dragon Disciple? the requirements are as follows:
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any non-dragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
Since oracles are spontaneous casters and fireball and burning hands are Arcane spells, would I meet the requirements as written?
No, because your Oracle can not cast 1st level Arcane Spells with preparation, (unless they are ALSO a Dragon bloodline Sorcerer). You cast 1st Level DIVINE Spells with preparation, some of which happen to be on other Divine AND Arcane casters lists, too, but irrelavent to you, as you ONLY cast Divine spells.
mage4fun wrote: A lot of talk about what this and that means, let me ask a question to get an idea of what most of you think.
I have an 7th level oracle, flame mystery. He can cast burning hands and fireball (traditional arcane spells). I also happen to have 6 ranks (not modified ranks) in Knowledge Arcane and speak draconic. Having this information, can I take a level in Dragon Disciple? the requirements are as follows:
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any non-dragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
Since oracles are spontaneous casters and fireball and burning hands are Arcane spells, would I meet the requirements as written?
Nope, your Oracle casts exactly *zero* arcane spells. Every spell they cast is divine.
From the PRD for Oracle:
Quote: Spells: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. The fact that Fireball appears on the Wizard spell list *also*, has no bearing on how the Oracle casts it.
Oracles cast Divine Spells.
-S
So then you are stating that a spell is neither divine or arcane, but based on who casts it?? I know that Fireball and Burning Hands are arcane evocation spells, but because they are granted to me as bonus spells they are treated as divine?
Gauss wrote: Fine Ill bite: I don't need to rewrite the rule. It is fine as written. The CRB states what defines an arcane or divine spell is the class casting it. That makes it plenty clear to me. It seems to be clear to others as well.
- Gauss
but that does not answer the question,
Why do you think Paizo chose to specify the individual spells if they didn’t mean individual spells?
Selgard wrote:
Quote: Spells: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. The fact that Fireball appears on the Wizard spell list *also*, has no bearing on how the Oracle casts it.
Oracles cast Divine Spells.
-S
great, so any spell chosen with mystic past life would inherently be of the proper type.
no need to worry about where they are coming from because they will always be the correct type for the caster casting them.
They provided examples. What is wrong with examples?
Anyhow, it appears you want to just fight what anyone says are the rules on this. Why do I say this? Because you keep going back to individual lines without looking at the context of the whole thing and fighting with people about them.
This comment:
you said wrote: great, so any spell chosen with mystic past life would inherently be of the proper type.
no need to worry about where they are coming from because they will always be the correct type for the caster casting them.
..is patentently false since the Mystic Past Life ability tells you to select a class to choose your spells from.
- Gauss
Quote: Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past. Take the ability in order:
1) You can add spells from aother spellcasting class to the spell list of your current class
2) 1+your key mod
3) The same type *as the class you are adding to*
4) Example is Divine Power
So mechanically what happens here?
Pick a spellcastin class that isn't your own, that matches the arcane or divine distinction from your own spell casting class.
What you are *wanting* it to say is "pick any spell from any list and have a party* but thats not what it says.
It says from another class, from a list that matches yours.
Now you say "spells aren't arcane or divine".
BUT!
Class Lists are.
So to *get to* an arcane spell you have to first pick your class list.
So if you are a wizard and want cure light, go bard. its arcane and has cure light on its list. Done!
if you are a druid and want divine power.. oh look, cleric! score!
You are trying to *skip* the natural logical step in how to figure out whether its arcane or divine. You have to choose the list.
Quote: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. This isn't fluff text. You have to pick a class to get the spells from. That class you get them from? It has to match arcane/divine as to the one you are adding it to.
When you stop trying to skip that step you'll find the answer to how it works is very clear.
-S
Sorry to keep with this, but just want to make sure that I have this completely correct. Above Oracle situation is spells are divine in nature and therefor no to dragon disciple. If the oracle is an ancient lorekeeper with this mystery:
At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper's mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast.
Since she selects a spell from the wizard/sorcerers list (arcane), then she would meet the requirements for a Dragon Disciple, correct.
mage4fun wrote: Sorry to keep with this, but just want to make sure that I have this completely correct. Above Oracle situation is spells are divine in nature and therefor no to dragon disciple. If the oracle is an ancient lorekeeper with this mystery:
At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper's mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast.
Since she selects a spell from the wizard/sorcerers list (arcane), then she would meet the requirements for a Dragon Disciple, correct.
No, not correct.
As long as you are using a divine spellcasting class as the base, you are never going to get into Dragon Disciple. EVery spell an Oracle casts is divine.
If they get to pick a spell from the wizard spell list and add it to their spells known they are still casting it as a divine spell.
The only way you are going to get there is to find an archtype or mystery or something that changes their base, underlying spellcasting to "Arcane" rather than "Divine".
-S
Selgard wrote: Quote: Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past. Take the ability in order:
1) You can add spells from aother spellcasting class to the spell list of your current class
2) 1+your key mod
3) The same type *as the class you are adding to*
4) Example is Divine Power
So mechanically what happens here?
Pick a spellcastin class that isn't your own, that matches the arcane or divine distinction from your own spell casting class.
correction, this is where the additional rule that isn't part of the racial trait is being applied. Mystic past life does not limit what other spellcasting class you can choose from it only limits the type of indavidual spells.
but it seams that you are working from both sides of the debate
Selgard wrote: As long as you are using a divine spellcasting class as the base, you are never going to get into Dragon Disciple. EVery spell an Oracle casts is divine.
If they get to pick a spell from the wizard spell list and add it to their spells known they are still casting it as a divine spell.
so a divine caster pulling a spell such as fireball from the wizard class still cast it as a divine spell. why would this be any diffrent for Mystic Past Life?
Selgard wrote: mage4fun wrote: Sorry to keep with this, but just want to make sure that I have this completely correct. Above Oracle situation is spells are divine in nature and therefor no to dragon disciple. If the oracle is an ancient lorekeeper with this mystery:
At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper's mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast.
Since she selects a spell from the wizard/sorcerers list (arcane), then she would meet the requirements for a Dragon Disciple, correct.
No, not correct.
As long as you are using a divine spellcasting class as the base, you are never going to get into Dragon Disciple. EVery spell an Oracle casts is divine.
If they get to pick a spell from the wizard spell list and add it to their spells known they are still casting it as a divine spell.
The only way you are going to get there is to find an archtype or mystery or something that changes their base, underlying spellcasting to "Arcane" rather than "Divine".
-S OK, I respectfully disagree, but I think I see where the difference in opinion comes from. Based on what everybody states here, regardless of where a spell comes from it is considered your base class type, Oracles, Inquisitors, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers all cast divine spells regardless of the source and Wizards, Magus, Sorcerers, and Bards cast arcane spell regardless of the source.
In the case of the Oracle (as that is the one I am looking at) I disagree with that observation. In the oracle description it states that the oracle gains spells from the cleric spell list, which is true, but when it further describes of the gaining of spells from other sources, then they are from another source and treated as such. the base class may not be able to cast spells outside of their means (divine or arcane) but when an ability states it can, then there is no need to change it back, just because the base class is not the same as the source.
Unless there is something stating that a caster emulates a spell of another source or prays and is granted a spell that is similar to another, I will treat the source of the spell as such (arcane or divine). So in the above example it clearly states that the ancient lorekeeper can choose a spell from the wizard/sorcerer arcane list, therefore they are casting an arcane spell.
Again, this is my opinion of these rules and I am not attempting to change anyone´s mind, just that I respectfully don´t share your point of view.
Selgard wrote: As long as you are using a divine spellcasting class as the base, you are never going to get into Dragon Disciple. EVery spell an Oracle casts is divine.
If they get to pick a spell from the wizard spell list and add it to their spells known they are still casting it as a divine spell.
If a cleric cast fireball as a divine spell then either
The spell Fireball has been added to the clerics spell list and is selectable via mystic past life or
Fireball becomes divine as it is being cast by the cleric in which case spell lists are not divine or arcane and mystic past life can select fireball from the wizard class.
Either way how is a divine fireball excluded from selection via mystic past life?
Or is it the spell list that determines arcane or divine and fireball is never added to the list, in which case a cleric casts fireball as arcane and satisfies pre reqs such as is seen with dragon dyciple or mystic thurge.
Mage4fun: Spells are neither arcane nor divine until you find out what class is casting them. Period. You will not find anything that indicates Spell X is arcane or Spell Y is divine EXCEPT by what class typically casts it.
Oracles are a divine spellcasting class. Any and All spells they cast are divine. Regardless of how that spell was acquired.
MLHagan:
Mystic Past Life DOES state you must pick a spellcasting class to choose your spells from. It THEN states you must pick spells that are the same type (Arcane or Divine) as your current spellcasting class.
If your current class is Wizard and you choose Bard to pick your spells off of then all spells must be Bard spells. Wizard spells are arcane. Bard spells are arcane. Both spell lists being Arcane satisfies the other requirement. That being that your spells are of the same type as your current class.
If you are a Wizard, choose Cleric as the spells to draw your spell list from then you wind up choosing Divine spells. Since you are an arcane spellcaster you have now violated the rules.
It can be no simpler. If you fail to see this I think you are either being intentionally Obtuse or are trolling for an argument.
- Gauss
Fireball is not on the cleric spell list. Thus it is not available if you pick Cleric as the spell list you are gaining spells from.
- Gauss
here is the answer from James Jacobs
James Jacobs wrote:
Okay... I'm in the office now and in a place where I can more easily reference the rules that are causing problems. And before I go further... While I can GUARANTEE that you're more familiar with Advanced Race Guide than I am. I've barely cracked the spine on the book, and this was the Hardcover book we've done so far that I've been involved the LEAST in, but what part I have been involved with was pretty much just the Samsaran. I rewrote the first paragraph of the flavor text, and requested the designers change a few of the rules options because the author had misunderstood how samsarans (which, admittedly, are weird and desperately need more information) work.
So.
If you take the Mystic Past Life trait, you need to have a spellcasting class already. In other words, you need at least 1 level in a spellcasting class. So, by taking that 1 level, you know whether or not that class is a divine or arcane spellcasting class. And you know what spell list that class has.
What this power lets you do is look at your chosen spellcaster class's spell list and add in spells that aren't on that list, but those spells must be chosen from the same type of magic (be it arcane or divine). In this case, what determines whether or not a spell is arcane or divine is merely the fact that the spell is on an arcane spellcaster's list or a divine spellcaster's list. Perhaps the MOST clear we could have written this would be:
"If you are an alchemist, bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, or witch, you may add any spell to your spell list from the alchemist, bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, or witch spell lists. If you are an antipaladin, cleric , druid, inquisitor, paladin, oracle, or ranger, you may add any spell to your spell list from the antipaladin, cleric , druid, inquisitor, paladin, oracle, or ranger spell lists."
When picking your spell, pick from the class spell lists, not from the spells themselves, because that way you can always tell if the spells you're looking at are divine (they're in the antipaladin, cleric , druid, inquisitor, paladin, oracle, or ranger lists) or arcane (they're in thealchemist, bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, or witch lists).
We didn't write the power like that though for two reasons: 1) because it takes up more words and isn't a very fun sentence to read, but mostly because of 2) listing it that way unintentionally blocks out future spellcaster lists we haven't invented yet.
A druid could not add fireball, because fireball is not a divine spell—it doesn't appear on the divine spell spell lists anywhere, and its description does not list it as being a spell that can be cast by a cleric. When a domain grants a spell like this, it grandfathers that spell into the cleric's spell list, but doesn't actually add it to that spell list. THAT SAID... your GM may interpret that differently. If you tried that in MY game, I would require you to worship a deity that grants access to the Fire domain, wether or not you're actually a cleric.
As for the second question, that could indeed be a self-satisfying requirement. As you may have noticed, our rules writing can be overly pedantic and overly wordy at times...
Gauss wrote:
MLHagan:
Mystic Past Life DOES state you must pick a spellcasting class to choose your spells from. It THEN states you must pick spells that are the same type (Arcane or Divine) as your current spellcasting class.
If your current class is Wizard and you choose Bard to pick your spells off of then all spells must be Bard spells. Wizard spells are arcane. Bard spells are arcane. Both spell lists being Arcane satisfies the other requirement. That being that your spells are of the same type as your current class.
If you are a Wizard, choose Cleric as the spells to draw your spell list from then you wind up choosing Divine spells. Since you are an arcane spellcaster you have now violated the rules.
It can be no simpler. If you fail to see this I think you are either being intentionally Obtuse or are trolling for an argument.
- Gauss
it appears that James Jacobs agrees with your interpitation.
personaly i would have prefered that it specified spell class as being either arcane or divine rather than spells being arcane or divine without refrence to class to prevent such confusion but it is what it is.
JJ has spoken.
So does that mean that a spell (such as fireball, burning hands) are arcane and if an oracle gains these they are casting arcane spells ?? or the lore keeper who selects from the wizard/sorcerer spell list is considered casting arcane spell??
No it means that any spell an oracle ever casts, is a divine spell. A divine caster can never cast an arcane spell, because arcane or divine depends completely upon who is casting it.
Vellas wrote: No it means that any spell an oracle ever casts, is a divine spell. A divine caster can never cast an arcane spell, because arcane or divine depends completely upon who is casting it. Confusion again, according to the write up from James Jacob he stated,
When picking your spell, pick from the class spell lists, not from the spells themselves, because that way you can always tell if the spells you're looking at are divine (they're in the antipaladin, cleric , druid, inquisitor, paladin, oracle, or ranger lists) or arcane (they're in thealchemist, bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, or witch lists).
Therefore if I am an oracle that has access to gain spells from the wizard/sorcerer spell list, then I am taking arcane spells. What I understood from that write up is that spells are based on the list they come from. I understand that some spells appear across various lists and therefore if as a cleric you take a spell that is on your list and on a wizard list, it is still a divine spell as it comes from a divine list. Also from that write up if as an oracle I can access and cast wizard spells and I choose Magic Missiles, then I am casting an arcane spell that comes from an arcane list.
With Mystic past life you can't pick spells from the wizard class list if you are an oracle. The Ancient Lorekeeper archetype of the oracle adds spells from the wizard/sorcerer class list to it's own spell list which then makes the spells divine for them.
Mage4fun: JJ's response was in direct relation to Mystic Past Life.
Your situation is slightly different. You are using an Ancient Lorekeeper to add a spell from the Wizard spell list to the Oracle spell list.
The Oracle still casts that spell as a divine spell because the Oracle is the one casting the spell.
Lets say the spell in question is Rope Trick. Lets also say the Oracle who chose Rope Trick is named Joe.
Joe the Oracle uses Ancient Lorekeeper to add Rope Trick to his spell list.
Wizards cast Rope Trick as an Arcane spell because Wizards are an arcane spellcasting class.
Joe the Oracle is not a Wizard. He is an Oracle. Thus, he casts Rope Trick as a Divine spell because Oracles are a divine spellcasting class.
That is as clear as I can make it.
- Gauss
Once again I partially agree, but I do not accept it that a spell that is arcane changes to divine because the caster is divine. Here is a write up that agrees with what you are saying:
Arcane Archivist (Su): Your experience with lore-filled tomes has granted you the ability to cast arcane spells as if they were on your spell list. Once per day, you can cast a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were on your list of spells known. The spell consumes a spell slot one level higher than the level of the spell. You must have a spellbook containing the spell to cast it in this way, and the spell is erased when you complete the casting.
the above states what you mentioned, that the spell is added as if it was on your list of spells know.
With the ancient lorekeeper it is a bit different
At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper's mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast. The ancient lorekeeper gains this as a bonus spell known.
No mention of adding it to your spell list or such, just that you cast said wizard/sorcerer (arcane) spell as 1 level higher then normal.
I believe that if Dragon Disciple needed to be allowed to arcane casters it would say so, by phrasing it as needing to cast 1st level arcane spells it leaves it open to classes (current or future) who may not be arcane caster but have access to arcane spells.
Mage4fun:
Fine, you gain it as a bonus spell known. That means you as an Oracle are still casting it. It is therefore a divine spell.
Say it with me:
Once: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!
Twice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!
Thrice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!!
Only the spellcaster makes a spell arcane or divine. You cast arcane, it is arcane. You cast divine, it is divine.
Ancient Lorekeeper gains a bonus spell. That spell is now cast by the Ancient Lorekeeper. Ancient Lorekeepers are Oracles which are a divine class. Thus: it is a divine spell.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: Mage4fun:
Fine, you gain it as a bonus spell known. That means you as an Oracle are still casting it. It is therefore a divine spell.
Say it with me:
Once: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!
Twice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!
Thrice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!!
Only the spellcaster makes a spell arcane or divine. You cast arcane, it is arcane. You cast divine, it is divine.
Ancient Lorekeeper gains a bonus spell. That spell is now cast by the Ancient Lorekeeper. Ancient Lorekeepers are Oracles which are a divine class. Thus: it is a divine spell.
- Gauss
Well thats not entirely true, nor is it writen as a rule in the books.
Divine Power has divine in its name reguarless of who casts it.
it is described as divine in its spell discription
"Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat.
and this discription would not change reguarless of who casts it.
however according to James Jacobc there are some situations that can over ride how a spell works.
James Jacobs wrote:
A druid could not add fireball, because fireball is not a divine spell—it doesn't appear on the divine spell spell lists anywhere, and its description does not list it as being a spell that can be cast by a cleric. When a domain grants a spell like this, it grandfathers that spell into the cleric's spell list, but doesn't actually add it to that spell list. THAT SAID... your GM may interpret that differently. If you tried that in MY game, I would require you to worship a deity that grants access to the Fire domain, wether or not you're actually a cleric.
so in the case of bonus spells they can be grandfathered in, even though they remain arcane or divine they are cast as the rest of the spells for a given spellcaster type.
in the case of an anchient lorekeeper, they could choose arcane mark as a bonus spell via eleven arcana, the spell would remain an arcane spell in name and discription however because its a bonus spell it would be grandfathered in to be castable as divine by the oracle in question.
think of it this way,
arcane spell casters cast arcane spells
divine spell casters cast divine spells
if either group is able to cast the other kind of spell for what ever reason, odds are they are still casting it as the same type as the rest of there spells. I can't think of any time that they wouldn't however more books are being added all the time and there may come a time when they can.
MLHagan:
Divine 'name' versus Divine 'category' are two different things. I think that is part of what hung you up.
Next: show me anywhere that states that spells are inherently divine or arcane. You cannot because it is not there. The spells are divine or arcane depending on who casts them.
If would be very poor design if they did something otherwise. Assume for a moment they create a new class that is Arcane and then give it a bunch of spells that have always gone to Divine classes.
IF spells were inherently divine people would be crying foul. Instead, they placed the difference between Divine and Arcane where it belongs: with the spellcaster.
I think you completely missed what JJ said. He was not stating that grandfathering it in keeps the type (Arcane or Divine). He said that grandfathering it in put it on a specific spellcaster's spell list as opposed to the entire classes spell list.
It still changes the type to the spellcaster's type.
Ancient Lorekeeper takes a wizard spell, places it in an Oracle character's spell list. Thus, when the oracle casts it it is divine.
This means that the Oracle cannot use an Arcane scroll of that spell because of the divison between Arcane and Divine. This means the Oracle cannot qualify as an Arcane spellcaster.
Look, it is obvious you do not believe anything I tell either of you. If you dont believe me (which it is apparent you dont) go ask James Jacobs about Ancient Lorekeeper.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: MLHagan:
Divine 'name' versus Divine 'category' are two different things. I think that is part of what hung you up.
Next: show me anywhere that states that spells are inherently divine or arcane. You cannot because it is not there. The spells are divine or arcane depending on who casts them.
Advanced Race Guide, Page 198, right hand collum, first paragraph
"For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell."
Divine Power has been declaired as a divine spell in a rule book. You or I may not agree with it, but there you go, in black and white. Once again from the book,
"divine power is a divine spell."
the spell is divine, not that class or the list or what ever else you may like to add to what is writen, divine power is a divine spell, end of statment.
And if A class comes out that is an arcane caster that has Divine power then it is now availble to the wizard.
As of right now had that chosen Wish for the example spell they would have said it was an arcane spell since only arcane casters have wish on their spell list.
So the one example (as opposed to the rest of the rules) is the entire basis of your logic? Then go ahead, throw away the rest of the game and play it based on that one example since you seem bent on ignoring any other rule that does not agree with your interpretation of that example.
Please note: That example does not state that Divine Power is a divine spell now and forever. It actually left out entirely who is casting it but since Divine Power is currently only available to Divine casters it was assumed.
Examples are not rules, they are examples that are intended to clarify rules. The actual rules have been quoted for you several times. Even James Jacobs did so.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: So the one example (as opposed to the rest of the rules) is the entire basis of your logic? Then go ahead, throw away the rest of the game and play it based on that one example since you seem bent on ignoring any other rule that does not agree with your interpretation of that example.
Please note: That example does not state that Divine Power is a divine spell now and forever. It actually left out entirely who is casting it but since Divine Power is currently only available to Divine casters it was assumed.
Examples are not rules, they are examples that are intended to clarify rules. The actual rules have been quoted for you several times. Even James Jacobs did so.
- Gauss
I am not ignoring rules nor am I making any up. The whole point of this thread is to expand our understanding of what makes a divine spell divine. This was brought on by the statement in Advanced Race Guide that divine power is a divine spell. I agree that arcane spellcasters cast arcane spells from their spell list. What I don’t agree with is the conjecture that fallows, saying that all spells on said list must be arcane themselves knowing that there have been case’s that allow spells to cross the divine arcane line.
When Henry Ford first stated making cars they could be any color you wanted as long as it was black. Did that mean that all black cars were fords? No of course not, did it mean that all cars were black? Again no.
Just because the spells a witch casts are arcane does not mean that the spells themselves are arcane, in fact prior to the release of the witch class spells like cure light wounds were assumed to be divine because they were only on divine spell lists. The witch class has shown us that is can be cast as an arcane spell as well.
I know that it may seem like I am being difficult, and that is not my intent, I am however trying to keep an open mind and stick to the facts rather than applying liberal amounts of preconceived notions and ignoring anything new.
Prior to the release of the Advanced Race Guide and mystic past life the idea of what spells are divine and what spells are arcane as spells by themselves was largely academic as their wasn’t a requirement (as far as I know) referring to a spell by itself being either. This racial trait appeared to present one, and thus the question arose. It also specified that a spell could be divine by itself just as a witch specified that arcane spell casters could cast cure light wounds.
This is an opportunity to open our minds and think of things in a new way, a time to question our preconceived notions and review the facts. So let’s not get hung up in our dogma and figure out how this new piece of the puzzle fits in with the rest.
Actually bard have been covering Arcance CLW since 3.0.
MLHagan: You are incorrect about Cure light Wounds. Bards have had cure light wounds for ages. They have also been Arcane for ages.
The new 'peice' of the puzzle as you put it is fine. It does not change the rules on what an Arcane or Divine spell is in any way. Spells are still determined as Arcane or Divine by the class of the person that casts them. As they have always been.
As JJ stated: you are overthinking this WAY too much.
Fact 1:
When the following classes cast a spell that spell is Arcane: alchemist, bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, or witch.
When the following classes cast a spell that spell is Divine: antipaladin, cleric , druid, inquisitor, paladin, oracle, or ranger.
Fact 2:
Adding spells to your class does not change what type of spells you cast. Whether or not the spell started as another type is irrelevant. It becomes Divine if you cast divine spells. It becomes Arcane if you cast Arcane spells.
Fact 3:
Mystic Past Life requires that you draw from the same type of spell list as the spell list you are adding it to. Arcane to Arcane. Divine to Divine.
Fact 4:
Ancient Lorekeeper takes a Wizard spell and adds it to an Oracle's bonus spells. This means that the spell 'becomes' divine for the purposes of the Oracle casting that spell. Why? because Oracles do not cast Arcane spells, they cast Divine spells.
Look, you dont agree with these facts? fine. It is your game. But, these are the rules. Don't think that they are the rules? Well JJ already stated Fact 1, 2 and 3. Check with him on Fact 4.
- Gauss
Talonhawke wrote: Actually bard have been covering Arcance CLW since 3.0. LOL, true though i don't have my 3.0 resource material with me at the moment. Sorry , i avoid bards in general out of pricinable because of what it took to create them back in first ed.
what about inflict light wounds? I think that one has remained divine untill the release of the witch class.
Gauss wrote:
The new 'peice' of the puzzle as you put it is fine. It does not change the rules on what an Arcane or Divine spell is in any way. Spells are still determined as Arcane or Divine by the class of the person that casts them. As they have always been.
Thats not what is writen, Divine Power is a Divine Spell without any refrence to what class or caster. a wizard can not select that spell via Mystic Past Life, not because what spell list it is on but because it is a divine spell (accoriding to Advanced Race Guide).
I has already agreed with JJ and have agreed with how Mystic Past Life works according to him.
what i don't agree with is pretending that rules exsist when they don't.
Gauss wrote:
Say it with me:
Once: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!
Twice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!
Thrice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!!
Arcane Mark for instance, check it out, it has arcane in its name reguardless of what spell list it is on or who is casting it, it remains Arcane even if only in spell name no matter what. just like cure spells include spells with the name cure in it and do not include spells of simular funtion such as heal that don't have that name in it.
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