RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Until the government finally passes my universal mind control bill and puts me in charge of the brains of the general populace.some people are jerks.
Such is life.
Relevant quote from MIB:
Jay -- "Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it."Kay -- "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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So what about your group? How does the social contract work for splitting raises?Usually yes, share the cost of Raise Dead. Or at least share the cost for the Restorations (or the cost of the materials). Also, share the cost of consumables that are used for that scenario only.
(emphasis mine)
I don't believe you can actually do that. Purchasing spellcasting services (raise dead, restoration, remove curse, etc.) is specifically mentioned in the Guide to Organized Play as a situation in which other characters can contribute to the cost. But if my character accepts a potion (or a charge from a wand) from another character, as far as I can see there's no way for me to reimburse that character.
If you regularly adventure with the same party, you can average out the costs over time. As my wife and I usually play at the same tables, our characters take it in turn to purchase wands of CLW, potions of cure disease, ... But there's no way for us to split the costs of a single item.
Contributor
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Not that the GM should try to force characters into doing things, but this is a situation under which the GM could look around the table and ask:
"Hey, what's everybody's alignment?"
A character who is Good refusing to bring a dead ally back to life should maybe prompt a GM to add a note to the chronicle sheet that the PC's alignment is drifting away from good.
A neutral character, especially CN...that's a bit harder, but if a player wants to be stingy but is playing a character whose premise is that they're "one of the good guys", this is one of those rare situations where I feel that alignment should play a role.
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Not that the GM should try to force characters into doing things, but this is a situation under which the GM could look around the table and ask:
"Hey, what's everybody's alignment?"
A character who is Good refusing to bring a dead ally back to life should maybe prompt a GM to add a note to the chronicle sheet that the PC's alignment is drifting away from good.
A neutral character, especially CN...that's a bit harder, but if a player wants to be stingy but is playing a character whose premise is that they're "one of the good guys", this is one of those rare situations where I feel that alignment should play a role.
Unless they're a good Druid, who believes in the natural order of things ... Or a good divine of most any ilk, since death means you get to go hang out with your god ... Or any other dozen explanations. Look, in a world where the afterlife is confirmed to exist, faith or no faith, death is not the same horrible fate that we treat it as in real life. If you can afford a res, great. If you can't, well, there's a reason the world isn't overflowing with everyone who has lived since the dawn of time.
Also, being an adventurer has a mortality rate. If it didn't it wouldn't be ADVENTURE.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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for me I think the deciding factor here was the cleric stepped up and filled a role she should not have had to fill. If she had not stepped up it would have been a TPK. Therefore I think they all should pitch in.
A character who does everything right but dies to lucky GM dice?--I would pitch in
A character who has to fill role they normally wouldnt--like this? I would pitch in
A character doing something stupid and getting themself killed? If I knew the player, I would pitch in only if they did not have enough money.
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Contributor
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Even with the presence of a confirmed afterlife, I'm not sure that even adventurers would be as cavalier in their attitude toward death. Otherwise, why bother trying to survive at all? Be Ulfen/viking - charge gloriously and die nobly and go to your afterlife of choice and live eternally in bliss/etc?
Just because a character is an adventurer doesn't mean that they don't have things to live for, and good-aligned characters should, if they're acting their self-labeled alignment correctly, recognize that about other people even if it doesn't apply to them. "Well, maybe the dead fighter had a family...we should chip in and bring him back", etc.
The mortality rate thing gets no argument from me on - sometimes it just happens - but it's also a game that's meant to be fun, and not everyone has fun when their character dies.
Personally, for me it depends on the character, but for the most part I'd be fine with it - all stories have to end, but I also try to think about other players and not just me. I guess that's the crux of the whole thread. Good-aligned players will chip in, neutral maybe, evil no (since PFS has no player-alignment restrictions...otherwise how could Kyle still be here, am I right? :P)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Most deaths come from some kind of stupidity, either the stupidity of the player/character (such as opening the door before check for traps), the stupidity of the dice/GM (such as that darn gnome in First Steps who crits with his axe), or the stupidity of a table wide decision (such as playing up with a table of mostly level 2's b/c you have one of Big Kyle's characters at the table)*
But there are several factors out side of the coincidences or bad decisions that influence whether or not you split the return cost. A cleric that was very effectual almost always gets my money to return - although nega-clerics** and a cleric I know with a CHA of 7 must prove their offensive capabilities. I respect meleeists as the front-lines are a dangerous place, but one that uses a Vicious Weapon & doesn't compensate for it by buying a Wand of CLWs to use after combat is courting death and thus I may be a little more reluctant.
I am a fan of the party warning: if you do X I will not be contributing to your return - but I feel that this statement is almost always made by players in retrospective to the action
Walter brought up a good tactic IMO, of if you debt your characters to others than you should expect them to repay that honor - that being said, if that Sorcerer*** dies nearly every time he's at your table, a revaluation of that policy is in order (and a meta-discussion about their build & tactics after the game)
It peturbs me when I hear players talk about not wanting to assist a particular player (not one of their characters, but the player in general) because this is a social game. When I talk with these players they usually complain about that player's tactics or build but have never discussed their thoughts on these issues with the player in question. We all started out as bad players; none of us had a twinked-out first character that we built all by ourselves and knew how to role-play effectively ~ in short, discuss the game calmly outside of the table with players that you wish would improve
Anyway, I seem to have ranted ^_^
*and yes, that DID influence some people's vote this last weekend :-p
**I'll let the nega-cleric fly so long as they alert the table that they are NPH (not primary healer)
***who takes a CON of 7!?! jeeze!
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I would never, ever expect the other Pathfinders to pay for my resurrection as a right.
I would offer to contribute gold to a character death if the dead character had fought strategically and protected the rest of the party by going toe-to-toe with the murderous creature. I'd even urge the other players to do the same.
Most of the time though, players have prestige stored and ready for death and this issue doesn't come up.
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There seems to be a lot of talk (here and on other threads) regarding the raising of low level PCs, such as at tier 1-2.
Is that actually something players should come to expect?
In most non-PFS games, a PC of that level wouldn't get raised since the group doesn't have the means, or the cash. It generally only happens as a GM call, ensuring the raised PC becomes indebted to the caster responsible, to perform some future service.
(If you have a sympathetic GM, one who prefers to keep a consistent cast, or believes in 'destined' PCs, they'll make the service something the PC would have wanted to do anyway, or use it as a way to link to the next chapter in the campaign.)
Socially, raising from the dead has been something reserved for important people; when did it become the norm for it to be offered to Joe Blow, and his little dog, too?
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There seems to be a lot of talk (here and on other threads) regarding the raising of low level PCs, such as at tier 1-2.
Is that actually something players should come to expect?
In most non-PFS games, a PC of that level wouldn't get raised since the group doesn't have the means, or the cash. It generally only happens as a GM call, ensuring the raised PC becomes indebted to the caster responsible, to perform some future service.
(If you have a sympathetic GM, one who prefers to keep a consistent cast, or believes in 'destined' PCs, they'll make the service something the PC would have wanted to do anyway, or use it as a way to link to the next chapter in the campaign.)Socially, raising from the dead has been something reserved for important people; when did it become the norm for it to be offered to Joe Blow, and his little dog, too?
I haven't seen raises for 1st and 2nd levels PCs at all, but in PFS, it is often done for 3rd and 4th levels whereas I've never seen it in a home game at those levels. Why is that? Well in a home game, that player can come in with a new character and everything continues. In PFS, if you can't get a raise, you lose the 10 scenarios of progress on your level 4 1/3 PC and go back to level 1. If you play with a consistent group, before long you're the only kid on the block who can't do the 3-7 or 5-9 scenarios. And even when you can play in a 1-5, you're constantly playing up as the lone 1st level tagalong who follows and leeches tons of gold (or gets killed again perhaps).
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I would sooner expect a player to attempt to raise his 2nd-level Tengu with the Devil-slayer and Perceptive boon, than a 4th-level human with no boons to its name.
That's a very good corollary to my point above--if you would permanently lose an incredibly special character, you are going to fight to the end to not have that happen. Fortunately for some of us, the Beginner Box Bash boon is there to help in these situations. I'm saving mine for exactly the situation you describe.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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There seems to be a lot of talk (here and on other threads) regarding the raising of low level PCs, such as at tier 1-2.
Is that actually something players should come to expect?
I have seen it in PFS for people whom are on their first character so as to not shy them away from the game due to an early death. Or if for some reason the player is the only level 1 at a table of 3s and 4s, but once again only if they're still new to the game (or if they've got a race boon, they might beg the party for it)
Veterans players will usually only raise a character if the scenario brings enough gold to cover a large chunk, or if they've reached the 16PA threshold.
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I have only partially refused to pay for a raise once. I really like the social aspect of the game and want to see people have fun.
The one time was at a recent con. Both before and during the game the one player was very obnoxious and pushy. Including a speech that basicly came down to buy a scroll of Breath of Life now or no healing. This was immediatly followed buy ongoing arguments to play up despite having a lopsided table DM advice against and two charecters that had 3 auto fail saves boons that had to be delt with.
We played up the obnoxious cleric got his just desserts for not recognizing the situation. Then as soon as the games was over before boons were passed out he immediatly told everyone their share of his raise dead and the two restorations to go with it.
My wife and I who thought he got what was coming to him were very offended when healing was implied it might be denied because we were poor at the time but immedatly presented with an equal bill for his death.
The other charecter who died at my table (don't know if it was OP table or not) was great we would of pitched in for her in a heartbeat. She paid her own way instead.
At the end my wife and I each gave 1200 towards his raise which isis more than the cost of his BoL scroll which neither of us could of afforded before the game in the first place. I tried to be the bigger person. The DM and my wife think we should of let him rot. Between the pay off for the mod and selling some equip he could of been in fighting shape even assuming he had no PA or coin at 7th level.
I doubt he learned his lesson.
Feel free to flame.
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So this will probably be my only post as this character, but I just wanted to throw in that in my experience conventions are by far the worst about people refusing to pay for raise dead. Especially at low levels. Why? Because you have a lot of new players who are either a)"Trying it out" with pregens and walk away to another part of the con as soon as they get a chronicle, b) spent all their money as soon as they got it, or c) So determined to save up for that Adamantine dagger their sorcerer really needs they won't chip in for anything.
A slight derailment about range vs. melee that I've seen by playing with a fairly large sample of people multiple times:** spoiler omitted **
Why the only post?...
Ugh, that must be awful to lose the character in the 6th game at the con, though I guess it's better than losing the character partway through without a spare (particularly bad if planning to play a higher tier scenario). I guess the character was new when the con began?
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Lesson learned? Be pushy - you'll get your way.Did you learn your lesson?
Yeah, if someone is being a Richard to this extent you just need to put your foot down and tell them straight up - 'you made the bed, so you sleep in it.'
You need to have zero tolerance for these obnoxious crybabies otherwise they'll drag the game down, and your enjoyment with it. And then the entire PFS suffers.
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Personally, for me it depends on the character, but for the most part I'd be fine with it - all stories have to end, but I also try to think about other players and not just me. I guess that's the crux of the whole thread. Good-aligned players will chip in, neutral maybe, evil no (since PFS has no player-alignment restrictions...otherwise how could Kyle still be here, am I right? :P)
Players don't have an alignment; their characters do. I'm sure you're going to say that's what you meant, but I'm pointing it out because it's an important distinction. I might refuse, out of character, to pay for the resurrection of someone who was, out of character, a total jerk. My character's alignment has nothing to do with that.
You also said you'd write "Drifting away from good alignment" on chronicle sheets for good-aligned characters who wouldn't chip in to help a party member get raised. But there are a number of reasons that a good character might decide that a resurrection is simply not a critical thing. And that's not an appropriate use of your GM powers anyway. Let us consult the guide:
Sometimes awful things happen to adventurers. After an all-night romp through the sewers, your wounds might start to fester with some foul disease—you might even die. After and sometimes during a scenario, you have the option of dealing with your character’s misfortune. You may have spells cast on your character, subtracting the gold piece cost from your total. If your gold is insufficient, the other players around the table may chip in to get you back on your feet, but they cannot be compelled to do so. It is their choice whether or not they aid you.
If you, as a GM, tried to punish my character for not doing something that I, by the rules, cannot be compelled to do (direct quote), I would protest that all the way up the chain of command, just on principle, even knowing how empty your gesture was to begin with.
Finally, let's take note: Refusing to pay for someone's raise until they've spent all their available resources, and only chipping in to cover the difference, is not the same as paying for an equal share. Even if I didn't want to do the latter, I might be coerced into doing the former. But someone who automatically assumed that the latter would occur would be very unlikely to get anything from me.
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I would sooner expect a player to attempt to raise his 2nd-level Tengu with the Devil-slayer and Perceptive boon, than a 4th-level human with no boons to its name.
That's a good example of a PC I'd want to keep. Someone with a one-off boon, or a race I can only have one of in my whole PFS career.
I'd help another player keep such a PC, too, though it would be me (the player) using the metaknowledge of the real-world PFS guide.If it were level 1 human Fighter, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave?
We barely know this guy; why would we bankrupt ourselves, when there's a queue at the membership desk, back at the lodge, stretching ten times round the block, full of his identical twins?
If it were a new player, who you wanted to keep in the community, and/or they had died through no fault of their own, after performing heroically, I'd put something aside.
A thirty-year veteran player, who just happened to be on his first PFS character, or starting a new PC? Not so much.
A dickish player, or a cowardly PC, who contributed nothing? Not at all.
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Why the only post?...Because I just permanently died on my 6th scenario at a con. It's a horrible time to die because there aren't enough resources to res you and you've already put a lot of time into the character.
Don't let that stop you posting here.
Come back as a ghost, and haunt the ones who let you die.
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There is only one character that should be forced to use a wand of CLW every turn. Her name is Kyra, and we keep her chained up in the back whenever there's a party of 3 that needs a healer.
PFS Tip #291:If you just do the above and say "Dawnflower!" with a dopey look on your face, you've successfully role played Kyra for a round and can go back to focusing on your own PC.
As for the topic at hand..
...I think the Cleric was absolutely in the right asking for help with the raise. A Raise Dead is a huge resource drain in both Prestige and Gold. This drain keeps many concepts from functioning in a stable fashion for a scenario or two until they are back on track in gear/consumables progression. So the Cleric not only dies after busting her ass for the party, but now has to play a PC with precariously low resources for the next scenario or two? Bull. It's a pity those other players had no intention to help, because I have a feeling they will find themselves without this Cleric or her player coming to their aid in the future.
In regard to the gear builds that involve (nay, demand!) healing every round to cover their tradeoffs, I believe this is a mistaken notion that such a symbiotic relationship counts being a "team player". It is possible to do vicious weapons and be smart about it; some of the above examples do not fall into this category. In short, if you die due to a build that is detrimental to the party functioning and/or people enjoying themselves, I'm loathe to reward your efforts by paying to help you keep playing this PC.
TL;DR: You sadly, can't force people to pay in for raises, even as a GM However, your choices, including those that lead to needing a raise for yourself or another character needing one because of your (in)actions, along with your willingness to pitch in impacts my willingness to play with you in the future. I have, and will, ask/work not to be at tables with certain players because of the outcomes of situations like these.
That's the best part of a social game: You get to choose who you don't want to be social with based on their behavior.
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Both before and during the game the one player was very obnoxious and pushy. Including a speech that basicly came down to buy a scroll of Breath of Life now or no healing. This was immediatly followed buy ongoing arguments to play up despite having a lopsided table DM advice against and two characters that had 3 auto fail saves boons that had to be dealt with.
We played up the obnoxious cleric got his just desserts for not recognizing the situation. Then as soon as the games was over before boons were passed out he immediatly told everyone their share of his raise dead and the two restorations to go with it.
This isn't a flame, but I do find it amusing that the posts upthread are full of "These guys we played with wouldn't buy a scroll of Breath of Life! They're expecting everyone else to pay more than that scroll each to raise their selfish hides!". "Yeah, what douchebags! You should refuse to heal them!";
then this post is about "This one guy expected us to buy a scroll of Breath of Life, or he'd refuse to heal us?! Where does he get off?!".
Do you people know each other?
Though I agree, the rest of his behaviour was out of line.
You don't force anyone to play up a subtier, if they don't have to, especially if they're carrying negative conditions (sounds like a bad Harrow reading?), and you don't assume anyone is raising your sorry ass. Especially if there's been any drama before you even set out the door of the lodge.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Lesson learned? Be pushy - you'll get your way.Did you learn your lesson?
Yeah, if someone is being a Richard to this extent you just need to put your foot down and tell them straight up - 'you made the bed, so you sleep in it.'
You need to have zero tolerance for these obnoxious crybabies otherwise they'll drag the game down, and your enjoyment with it. And then the entire PFS suffers.
Amen.
I'd be shocked if my <unnamed concept #2> to be raised, he *is* a Richard. I'd hope that Mayim, Rey, or <unnamed concept #1> would get sympathy, but I wouldn't expect it.