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Vestigial Arm (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times
Does this discovery (taken twice) give you the ability to Two-Weapon Fight with Two-handed Weapons such as the Great Sword?
If so what would be the off hands bonus damage to strength? These are the rules written on this matter that I could find.
1. Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. (Taken from page 16 [Abilities section] of core rules)
2.Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. (from page 141 [weapons section] of Core rules)
3.Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. (from page 136 [Feats section] of Core rules. Additional Two-weapon fighting are rules on page 202 [Combat section] but says the same thing).
Please keep things friendly and civil.
Vestigial Arms do not grant you the ability to gain the Multiweapon fighting feat. This sounds weird, but has been called out many times.
Where?
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Well, noted in the discovery itself, the arms allow for two weapon fighting, not multiweapon fighting. Even if you were able to gain the multiweapon fighting feat, it would be useless, as you could not use the vestigial arms for extra attacks.
Remember, the multiweapon fighting feat only reduces penalties, but does not grant you the ability to multiweapon fight.
You would need to gain that from another source.
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Yes. Note that you have three off-hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only helps you with one of them. Multiweapon Fighting may help you more.
The sword wielded in two off-hands has 1.5 x STR bonus as a two-handed weapon and 0.5 x STR bonus as an off-hand weapon, for a final multiplier of 0.75.
So what you are saying is I should get double slice so I do not have to figure out what 0.75 of my strength modifier is all the time? lol
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You still need a way to actually multiweapon fight.
Although you can't get more attacks with vestigial arms than you would when fighting with two weapons, MWF is still helpful.
With no feats, you have -6 to your primary hand and -10 to each off-hand.
With TWF, you have -4 to your primary hand, -4 to your off-hand, -10 to your other off-hand and -10 to your fourth hand. Applying these penalties to your two greatswords in the least unfavourable way, you have -4 to one and -10 to the other.
MWF reduces penalties to -4 to the primary hand and -4 to each off-hand. Provided you can hit your opponent with a -4 penalty, you then have two meaningful attacks.
So what you are saying is I should get double slice so I do not have to figure out what 0.75 of my strength modifier is all the time? lolYes. Note that you have three off-hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only helps you with one of them. Multiweapon Fighting may help you more.
The sword wielded in two off-hands has 1.5 x STR bonus as a two-handed weapon and 0.5 x STR bonus as an off-hand weapon, for a final multiplier of 0.75.
Makes sense, but you'd have to meet its prerequisites.
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I am under the impression that the discovery forces you to use two-weapon fighting opposed to Multi-Weapon fighting. As for my logic on Two-weapon fighting I read it as these are the penaltys when fighting with two-weapons as opposed to these are your penaltys when fighting with your first two hands. So in other words I have 1 primary hand and 3 off hands. Mechanically all those off hands are still off hands so you would get -4 (without a light weapon) to hit. The restriction however is that without the multi-weapon fighting feat you cannot take attacks with all 4 different weapons without staggering penaltys for your two extra off hands (which you do not have the option of doing anyway as Vestigal Arms states you do not gain any extra attacks). So my way of using the Arms is to help wield two two-handed weapons thereby only using two weapon fighting (because there is two-weapons involved) and instead of attacking with the extra hands I use them to meet the two hand requirement of said two-handed weapons. So Mechanically it works out almost identical to the Titan Mauler ability Jotungrip but with slightly more strength bonus and a little more versatility in what you can wield. I really hope I made sense with all that...lol
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A four-armed Alchemist/Titan Mauler.
That sounds cool.
I thought about that but the penaltys would be staggering. Also Power Attack would be less effective. Personally I would rather mix it with Wild Rager (for extra attack) or Invulnerable Rager (for a bit of DR). Besides all things considered you are going to be having players call you a munchkin as is with four arms, do you really want to aggravate them further?
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Yes. Note that you have three off-hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only helps you with one of them. Multiweapon Fighting may help you more.
The sword wielded in two off-hands has 1.5 x STR bonus as a two-handed weapon and 0.5 x STR bonus as an off-hand weapon, for a final multiplier of 0.75.
Actually, according to PFS math, you'll deal 1.0 x STR bonus on your offhand.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
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Yes. Note that you have three off-hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only helps you with one of them. Multiweapon Fighting may help you more.
The sword wielded in two off-hands has 1.5 x STR bonus as a two-handed weapon and 0.5 x STR bonus as an off-hand weapon, for a final multiplier of 0.75.
Actually, according to PFS math, you'll deal 1.0 x STR bonus on your offhand.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
Could you please explain your math. Every time I try to figure out how that ruling turns those multipliers into a x1 I fail miserably. Admittedly math was my worst subject in school. It seems to me basic addition however the rule states each multiple adds 1 less than it's value so it would be 1.5 x -.05 as I see it.
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Could you please explain your math. Every time I try to figure out how that ruling turns those multipliers into a x1 I fail miserably. Admittedly math was my worst subject in school. It seems to me basic addition however the rule states each multiple adds 1 less than it's value so it would be 1.5 x -.05 as I see it.Yes. Note that you have three off-hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat only helps you with one of them. Multiweapon Fighting may help you more.
The sword wielded in two off-hands has 1.5 x STR bonus as a two-handed weapon and 0.5 x STR bonus as an off-hand weapon, for a final multiplier of 0.75.
Actually, according to PFS math, you'll deal 1.0 x STR bonus on your offhand.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
Haha well I wrote that wrong. 1.5 multiplied by negative .50 (not .05)
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Could you please explain your math. Every time I try to figure out how that ruling turns those multipliers into a x1 I fail miserably. Admittedly math was my worst subject in school. It seems to me basic addition however the rule states each multiple adds 1 less than it's value so it would be 1.5 x -.05 as I see it.
Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
Example: x2 + x2
2 + (2-1) = 3Case in Question: x1.5 + x.5
1.5 + (.5-1) = 1
In dealing with this process, at no point do you actually multiply the multiples; you merely add them together and subtract 1.
Another way to think about it is 1 limb is 'primary' and gets full strength bonus, and each secondary limb gets 1/2 strength bonus.
'primary' 2-h attack gets (the standard) 1.5 strength and the secondary 2-h attack gets 1.0 strength.
Where this gets REALLY tricky is - what if you had an appropriate weapon and could 4-hand it (hafted weapon or one with an extra long hilt). The damage would be around 2.5 strength.
Were it possible, it would deal 2.0x Strength modifier damage (1.5 + [1.5-1]). But there's no rule that states that you deal extra damage for every two hands in which you hold a weapon; this would be at your DM's discretion.
Agree that there is no rule, but consider four 1-handed attacks. They would be [W]+1.0-STR + [W]+0.5-STR + [W]+0.5-STR + [W]+0.5-STR for a grand total of 4x[W]+2.5-STR.
Two 1-handed weapons do 1.0 STR + 0.5 STR = 1.5 STR = 2-Handed Weapon
...taken to the next level...
Four 1-handed weapons do 1.0 STR + 0.5 STR + 0.5 STR + 0.5 STR = 2.5 STR = 4-handed weapon
Wouldn't that work - on the balance side?
The answer to the Op is= No.
This again ... really ?
JJ says not intended and GM's are well within their rights to say no
They should just be done with it and make a fighter archetype that can use ridiculously oversized weapons so everyone can play out their Final Fantasy VII Cloud fantasies
They should just be done with it and make a fighter archetype that can use ridiculously oversized weapons so everyone can play out their Final Fantasy VII Cloud fantasies
Or the D&D Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance II barbarian's "Hero's Arm" fantasies. I mean, after all, your barbarian in BG:DA-II can dual-wield great-axes/swords if you get the correct feat.
Humorously, most of Cloud's swords in FF-VII aren't all that large. His buster sword (initial equipping) is big, and several of his major weapons are pretty big, but he also has weapons that are far less excessive looking, like the Muramasa (just a katana or no-dachi), the Nail Bat (quite literally is a wooden stick with nails in it), the Hardedge (the first upgrade over your Buster Sword available from the Shinra HQ, which looks very similar to the sword Sol Badguy wields in Guilty Gear), and so forth. Most of them aren't really even any larger than 2 handed swords are. I have a decorative claymore that's huge, and it's not uncomfortable to wield (it's about the size of my younger brother, last I checked, but he's gotten a bit taller these days).
In fact, here's a Visual listing of the swords, and their names. Most of them aren't that extreme. Especially when you consider that in D&D terms many of them are probably made out of special materials and he is supposedly a genetically altered super soldier.
It's also worth noting that during the entirety of FF VII, he wields this sword as a 2 hander, with the exception of his somewhat clumsy slashes when he is driving a motercycle during one point in the game (the slashes are merely horizontal swings, and as noted, are a little clumsy). None of that advent children nonsense where he's basically driving a motercycle at super speeds while ejecting a small arsenal of giant swords and dual-wielding them while leaping 300 feet through the air and stuff.
I was actually rather disappointed in his "Omnislash" in the Advent Children movie. Kind of a crappy movie (pretty effects, good animation, didn't really do it for me in the plot department). When you see Omnislash in the original game, it was less visually impressive, but it sort of cemented Cloud as an ultimate badass (of course, being able to go through the game and getting familiar with his different super techniques which grew from a simple jumping slash to the mighty meteo-rain probably helped).
Yeah, but I'm talking about wielding one real big weapon, with multiple hands.This again ... really ?
JJ says not intended and GM's are well within their rights to say no
Like I said they really just need to make a Fighter Archetype that can use grossly oversized weapons and people will stop looking for ways to do it ;)
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There is a barbarian Archetype that allows for wielding two handers one handed called Titan Mauler. It also reduces penalties for wielding oversized weapons. However you cannot wield an oversized weapon one-handed nor can you use any weapon more then one size larger than yourself.
All that said and done is the general consensus that you can in fact wield two two-handed swords with 2 weapon fighting as written. The only nay sayer I saw was DrDeth but I did not see any sort of reasoning behind his answer.
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Could you please explain your math. Every time I try to figure out how that ruling turns those multipliers into a x1 I fail miserably. Admittedly math was my worst subject in school. It seems to me basic addition however the rule states each multiple adds 1 less than it's value so it would be 1.5 x -.05 as I see it.Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.Example: x2 + x2
2 + (2-1) = 3Case in Question: x1.5 + x.5
1.5 + (.5-1) = 1In dealing with this process, at no point do you actually multiply the multiples; you merely add them together and subtract 1.
Thanks for the explanation! It is so simple I feel stupid for being confused in the first place. lol.
There is a barbarian Archetype that allows for wielding two handers one handed called Titan Mauler. It also reduces penalties for wielding oversized weapons. However you cannot wield an oversized weapon one-handed nor can you use any weapon more then one size larger than yourself.
All that said and done is the general consensus that you can in fact wield two two-handed swords with 2 weapon fighting as written. The only nay sayer I saw was DrDeth but I did not see any sort of reasoning behind his answer.
You may be able to do it but James Jacobs has said it was not an intended application of vestigial arms, so take that for what it's worth
As long as the PC is disallowed multiweapon fighting, as per the rules within the discovery description, there seems to be nothing game breaking.
Where's that wording? I have tried to find it.
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Where's that wording? I have tried to find it.As long as the PC is disallowed multiweapon fighting, as per the rules within the discovery description, there seems to be nothing game breaking.
Vestigial Arms specifically says that the extra arms do not grant any additional attacks. Since Multiweapon Fighting does not grant additional attacks, but only lowers the penalties for creatures capable of attacking with 3+ weapons, it would be essentially a dead feat.
Another way to look at it if that doesn't make sense:
Two Weapon Fighting is both an ability that all humanoid creatures have, and a feat that you can take to improve that ability. Multi-Weapon Fighting is an ability that some creatures have, and a feat that they can take to improve that ability. While the ability is not a requirement of the feat, there's no benefit to be had from taking the feat without the ability. An ability/class feature/etc. would have to give you the ability to Multi Weapon Fight before the feat would benefit you.
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Thank you, that makes sense to me. However, I just tried that on my friend who wants to do this very thing (a 4 armed 4 weaponed 4 attack Vivisectionist Alchemist) and he sez that the only pre-reqs are having a Dex of 13 and 3 or more hands. sigh.
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.