Gunslinger - Deadshot, Rapid Shot, Haste

[Tesailion]

Heyho

Now for all I want to say that I've used the search function already.

My question is if i use deadshot - do it stack with rapidshot, haste and so on?
The descrption says that i make the number of attacks from my base attack bonus.

At lvl 7 this would be 2 shots, but haste and rapid shot would give me 2 more.

50% in the older threads say it works and the other 50% it dont work.

Something official would be nice.

Tesa

[Tormad]

I am curious about this as well, as I have a player playing a gunslinger in one of my current games. He swears up and down that it'll work like that but I don't know.

[Roaming Shadow]

Since it calls out your BAB, I'd rule that it only counts your level based itterative attacks. I've had people try to get insanely powerful Deadshots by holding another firearm in their off hand and saying "Well, in a full attack I have all the potential shots from my off hand firearm, so that should be counted towards my Deadshot". Yeah...no.

My rational is based largely off of this line:

"...but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus."

It's not "as many attacks as she could potentially make with a full attack", but as many attacks as her BAB would normally allow, not looking at potential modifications to the number of attacks. It's an ability meant to offset the fact that you can't normally make iterative attacks with firearms due to reload times (hence why you get it one level after you get your first iterative attack), though it's made obsolete by the fact that it's easy to reduce reloading firearms down to free actions, namely Rapid Reload + Alchemical Cartridges.

[Maxximilius]

It only counts for additional attacks given by your BAB, not from additional feats ; as quoted previously.

We playtested it this way during a mid-to-high level campaign (with double-barelled musket deadshots, no less), and it wasn't broken nor useless, just circumstancial.

[Tormad]

My player is arguing that the wording is similar to the alchemist fast bomb discovery.

@Roaming shadow:

My player argues the same, if he is dual wielding with haste and rapid shot he should be aloud to put all those shots into the same attack. He plans on making this a signature deed so the grit will be a non issue.

The alchem discovery basically turns bombs into thrown weapons so you may two weapon fight and/or rapid shot correct? This player plans to fight to either get his way or nerf the alchemist who plans on going the two weap fight bomb route eventually.

[Maxximilius]

Tormad wrote:

My player is arguing that the wording is similar to the alchemist fast bomb discovery.

Fast bombs specifically mentions that it "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."

Deadshot does not, and only says that you get to make additional attack rolls "granted by high BAB".

[Tesailion]

The problem if it dont work with rapid shot that its just useless.

An example with my character

Master Musket with paper cartridges

16/16/16/11 (With haste and rapid shot) at 1d12+8 dmg

With deadshot I would make only 2d12+8 dmg
without 4d12+32

I see no reason here to use this. Even with 4 attacks (4d12+8) its not really well. The only reason is the lower missfire chance and the potential massive crit, but in general it is lower dmg.

[Grick]

Dead Shot (Ex): "At 7th level, as a full-round action.... She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack..."

The only thing that is as if she were making a full attack is that you make the attack rolls in order. For anything other than making the attack rolls in order, it is not as if she were making a full attack.

This means Dead Shot is not a full attack.

Rapid Shot: "When making a full-attack action..."

Since Dead Shot is not a full-attack action, Rapid Shot does not function.

Haste: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack..."

Since Dead Shot is not a full attack action, Haste does not grant the extra attack.

Fast bombs: "This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."

Since Fast bombs functions just like a full-attack, both Rapid Shot and Haste can apply. FAQ on Fast Bombs

[Grick]

Tesailion wrote:

The problem if it dont work with rapid shot that its just useless.

Other than not having to reload between each attack roll, conserving ammunition, and having a better chance to overcome Damage Reduction.

[Tormad]

I see it being useful if you run out of paper cartridges, also even with rapid reload and paper cartridges reloading a musket still takes a move action. So even with haste and rapid shot you cannot shoot 4 times a round, at best your shooting once every round, unless I missed something?

And even once you reach level 11 and get lightning reload, it says you may only reload as a free action once a round.

[Tormad]

@Grick

Thank you, those are the facts I will plan to present to my player to convince him of how the rules should and will work in my game.

[Tesailion]

Tormad wrote:

I see it being useful if you run out of paper cartridges, also even with rapid reload and paper cartridges reloading a musket still takes a move action. So even with haste and rapid shot you cannot shoot 4 times a round, at best your shooting once every round, unless I missed something?

And even once you reach level 11 and get lightning reload, it says you may only reload as a free action once a round.

Musket Master Archetyp

Quote:

Fast Musket (Ex)

At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm.
This deed replaces the utility shot deed.

Its a free action after lvl 3

[Maxximilius]

You do a single attack which misfires only if you misfire at every shot. If your firearm is already broken or you are threatened by a foe, it may be the only safe way to shoot without destroying your weapon or dying by AoOs; or the only way to shoot at all with a weapon you are not specialized in since rapid reload only applies to a single type of firearms.
Add in an oil of silence, and it is a powerful, silent one-shot snipe.

With a double-barreled musket, it suddenly becomes better : at level 12, with a +10 bonus to damage, that's three attack rolls, so (3x2d12)+20, up to (4x6d12)+80 on a critical hit. Get yourself burst bullets, and you are looking at a potential +(2x3d10) by deadshot per "burst" weapon enhancement on your weapon.
If you have a character in the group allowing to reroll dice, it can become glorious.

Our musket master gunslinger (distance, precision, sniper-oriented) once dealt a critical Deadshot with a Flaming/Shocking/Frost burst +1 DB musket he kept for close range after having his seeking, distance musket covered in water. That was something like (24d12)+84+(6d6)+(18d10) damage since he hit with the three attacks.