Ok so my thought is mainly an RP build, but i'd appreciate any advice. Want to do a Sorc 1/monk 4/DD build, but I'm concerned it will be horribly UP. Spell choice will be essential, as will feats,dragon color and even race. My thoughts are it will be very defensive- good saves, evasion, decent Hps, etc. One issue is stat drift- there really are no dump stats- maybe Int. thinking about martial artist varient a well- i don't want to muddy the waters with both chi and spell stuff, but if a case can be made I'll consider it. Thanks in advance for any advice!
I would suggest you look at the Unarmed Fighter archtype in Ultimate Combat. Probably a better fit and much more suited to multi-classing than Monk.
Eh, it works out alright. It's not as optimized stat-wise as some other builds for Dragon Disciple but you'll enjoy the strength and hit points. I've got a player whose running one in a game I'm in and he does just fine for damage and being a monk. His only really big issue is DR.
So remember to buy a couple of weapons to be safe on that. Also your only taking 4 levels of Monk, so it isn't like your balancing anything.
what i've noticed is the amount of alternatives in combat- stunning fist, breath weapon, Dragon shout, spells (but mainly buff stuff, so the draconic + to damage is kinda meh) and even the low level monk stuff gives a lot of variety in combat. I'm thinking not so much a damage charachter as much as a wild card. The buff to Str from DD+ the 1 1/2 times dam for unarmed works well tho. That's why unarmed fighter does not turn me on as much- they are still doing 1d3 fist dam, right?
that makes Dragon shout pretty useless. right?
1 sor 3 master of many styles quigong monk(Pick up base style feats and 1 other from crane and dragon)pick up monastic legacy add 1or 2 level in barbarian for rage. buy robes of arcane heritage. Your strength is is awesome Lots of damage and only 1 behind med BAB to hit with all kinds of options.
throwing in barbarian is a good idea, but how do you get around the alignment issue unless you are a martial artist? you also loose a lv of monk- that break from 3 to 4 is pretty important- ac buff + h2h dam increses a die step, and if you stick with straight monk ki pool. d12 hp is sexy and all, and beserking is The Reason to do it, but is that worth what you give up?
I actually like snake style more than crane, as it can work against ray spells and the like. Combining snake, deflect arrows, maybe wind stance, and spells like mirror image can give you an effective defense without points in dex or wis.
The biggest problem will be the DCs for not only casting but also dragon breath will be pitiful if you start dropping sorc levels, and your bab will be terrible if you do take them.
I would go ninja with dragon style and eldritch heritage: dragon, but that won't get very dragon-y until later levels
my thought is that yeah, my spell DCs will be poor, but I'm planning on mainly buff spells and non combat utility spells- sheild, feather fall, etc. The Stunning fist/breath DC will be poor because of stat drift- Buffing STR is the big thing with this build. That said, follow the Arcane Caster Rule #1: hit the bad guy with his worst save. Don't try to stun the Fighter (it's a fort save- they rule that), stun the rogue/wiz.
Breath weapon and dragon shout will be more of a style thing- let's face it they are going to be 4 lvs (at least) behind damage wise. The big benefit is that's an AOE that will soften up a number of bad guys. It's no finishing move,but there will be times where it will be worth the round action.
My build is actually this. monk 4, sorc 1 -> DD. Some quick tips
Pick up dual blooded as a sorcerer and take a second bloodline that allows you to choose a new casting stat. I think the wildblooded varient of arcane lets you use int, and wildblooded devine lets you use wisdom. I went with wisdom because it's already an important stat for monks. You get less spells to choose from, but it gives you access to a dump stat which is more important in my mind.
Also, master of many styles and dragon style feats are a good mix considering you're loosing out on BaB and making up for it with strength bonii. The extra damage helps out quite a bit. I also took Shaiten style since I went with an acid dragon, but that's purely fluff for my charactor .
Finally, MoMS looses out on flurry, but this is sort of acceptable thanks to claw attacks. Built this way, your monk is more of a striker, able to dive in and take out the enemy caster fairly quickly thanks to increased mobility. So far, I find perception, acrobatics and stealth are my three most useful skills.
If im reading correctly, dragon disciple only gets 4 strength? Even with dragon style, thats only 3 damage. The 11 monk levels missed would average 3.5 at the lowest level, 5.5 at the highest. So, straight up qinggong monk actually wins in melee and breath attacks.
If you want lots of castings,
Hungry ghost monk - regain ki on kills + crits, great if you are killing groups of weak enemies with dragon's breath
(qinggong can gain ki steal, but only vs living)
Master of many styles - dragon style merged with snake and crane for defense
Qinggong - breath weapons, and a good list of other options, including gaseous form, spit venom, shadow walk, and cold ice strike
Dragon (style) roar hits will saves and can stack for fear
Dragon's breath (qinggong) hits reflex for max 12d6
Spit venom (qinggong) blinds on touch (no save), hits fort for con damage (I love this with quickened spell like ability. About to get full attacked to shreds? Quickened blind!)
Trayce has the right idea with a Crossblooded sorc.(Draconic + Empyreal) for the modified wis casting. Also, the Draconic + Sage crossblood is VERY nice, as the DD PrC gets a +2 to INT at 8th lv.
Also, I would NOT recommend going MOMS to get your style feats. To get Dragon style you simply need to be a 3rd level character. For Dragon Ferocity, a 5th level character is fine. Dragon Roar really isn't all that great. A standard action, allows a reflex save for half, it's only a 15 ft. cone, uses 2 stunning fists...the list goes on. Of course, Snake style and Snake Fang is a bit different. A free AoO every time an opponent misses - that's pretty hot.
If you do go barbarian, I'd recommend Urban Barbarian, so that you don't lose AC, but still get all the strength goodness. Also, their +1 to attack and damage for fighting 2 enemies at once is pretty decent, especially if you didn't forsake your flurry, or took Snake Style and Fang.
great minds think alike! I was thinkin black dragon (rp stuff and also the acid cantrip will at least get a damage bump)and Elf with the "spirit of the waters" race varient- swim bump+ net prof for more CC- and Breadth of experience feat- +2 to KN and Prof rolls, and can make rolls untrained. That would blend well with Dragon/Kirin MoMS monk. Wow am I feat deprived tho. So I'm thinking:
1) Breadth of EP
Monk Bonus- Dragon style
Monk Bonus- Kirin Style
3)2d Dragon feat
5)2d Kirin feat (or Elemental fist, as Dragon #2 allows you to qualify)
The description of MoMS is kinda vague about qualifying for feats tho- do you get a pass for qualifying ONLY for your "monk bonus feats" or for all of your feats?
the first kirin feat is pretty lame, but the second is solid (if you keep your KN skill buffed. also the Elf INT bump is useful here.
I think you're forgetting that 4 strength is in addition to other strength - your natural strength and any gear you get to augment it. Adding 50% strength is more then what you get from DD
The downside to my particular build is limited casts per day. 4-6 elemental fists, 4-6 stunning fists and a couple of breath weapons at higher levels and form of the dragon. It's more fluff than efficient, but in my mind still efficient enough to justify using it.
Qualifying for feats as a MOMS is just like with any other class. You only get free passes on your bonus feats.
Also, Kirin Style IS kind of a waste. To use kirin strike, you need to use 2 swift actions. That means that on your second round of fighting, you can add bonus damage to ONE strike. If you're a Vivisectionist alchemist with a bow, or maybe an inquisitor, it's not bad. If you're a monk, it's really not all that. Not to mention, you wouldn't need Breadth of EXP at that point, either. So, save yourself 3 feats.
wow Kirin style is NOT thought out well. you need 1 swift to enter the style- that lasts the combat (yay!) then you make a KN roll (another swift) for the dude you're fighting (lasts as long as he's up). Then if you hit take another swift to do bonus damage (i guess once a round is the most times you can do this) If you can weave this together you will do crazy damage- Str x 1 1/2 + 2x Int= Whippalicious for 1 attack, but the rolls are a bit much.
I'll look at snake style tho- Sense Motive is a skill we use in our game a lot, and a dragon/snake MoMs / Black dragon DD would work well as a theme.
Mantis style might also be a good consideration considering the multiclassing. It augments your stunning fists by quite a bit in later levels.
the more i think about it, MoMS may not be the way to go- i need to front load my Monk stuff, as I'll only be picking up 4 lvs of it at first. Martial artist was my first thought, and I still think it's a solid one- bump to Stunning fist DC, Qualify for fighter feats (when ever I can afford to get them) and the +2 hit/ignore DR OR + to Sense Motive/AC (as a dreaded Swift action) helps offset BaBhate the class gets. Spells instead of Ki pool, and the lack of alignment restrictions.
And yeah, the DD/monk does loose out on HtH damage as compared to straight monk, but the variety makes up for it imo. They get a Str bump of +4 and the ability to cast Bull's strength, that's +8 str for a combat, which turns into +6 h2h damage, which translated into Dragon breath dam. the relativly small number of stunning fists, elemental fists, etc actualy make me have to think about if i want to use them any given round, and if i don't I'm still pretty decent in combat, just not peak. it'll take probably 2 rounds of buff casting (shield + bull's strength) but that will make me a Bad Mamma Jamma.
Yeah, depending on how bastardized you want to get, you could do:
Human
Lv Class Feats
1 Unarmed Ftr 1 TWF, Either Snake or Dragon Style
2 MoMS 1 Snake Fang OR Dragon Ferocity
3 MoMS 2 The other style feat and it's successor
4 Cross Sorc 1
5 Urban Barb 1 Anything (maybe combat reflexes?)
6+ Dragon Disciple Any Feat you like
You'll end up with the same BAB as a monk 4/sorc 1, but you'll have some better HP, a really nice unarmed strike damage, free attack(s) on anyone who misses you, etc.
For a 20 pt buy, I'd do
Str 18 10 pts
Dex 15 7 pts
Con 12 2 pts
Int 10 0 pts
Wis 14 5 pts
Cha 7 -4 pts
AC is never all that great, but you can use light armor until you gain sorcerer levels, since the monk only loses flurry (which you don't have anyway), fast movement (which you'll never have anyway), and his wis bonus to AC (only +2), and I'd rather have the 4 armor that chain shirt provides. Once you get sorc levels, the shield spell is bread and butter, and a wand of mage armor is only 750 gp, and thus readily available very early on.
combining unarmed ftr with monk is good for inital HPs, bab and the style feat- with it you can get all 3 style feat by 3d lv if you combine with moms! if your 3d tier style feat is that sweet it's a good idea, but the Dragon roar is cool, it's not THAT cool. But you loose a lot as well- the bump from 3 to 4 monk is pretty important- die step HtH, AC bump, saves across the board buff, and ki pool/ exploit weakness (if you go M.A.)
I think one of the strengths of the class is the crazy AC you can get to- Dex+Wis+ 1 4th lv monk, +1ac lv 1,4 and 7 DD, +1 AC Lv 2 DD and 8DD(bloodline power). And that's not including Mage Armor, Shield, or random magic items!
also, where is the info on Crossblood Sorcs? Sage and emp I can find no hint of- which books are they in? thanks.
Sage (arcane) and Empyreal (celestial) are Wildblooded sorceror lines. They're beneath all of the other sorc. stuff on the pfsrd.
Right, if you take monk 3, you may as well take monk 4. The build that I posted stopped at monk 2, though. The BAB is the same, and the die step, while nice, isn't really all that great (d6 to d8, or d8 to 2d6 enlarged). The ki/exploit IS pretty sweet though, perhaps enough to go with just 4 monk levels. Although, a MoMS monk doesn't really get all that much mileage out of a ki pool at lv. 4. Maybe quingong for barkskin? On the saves, though, a level of fighter and a level of barbarian give you +4 fort, as opposed to +1 to all, so it's really not that bad.
thanks! and the only real cool thing about a 4th lv ki pool 1 extra attack at highest BaB, which is groovy. not flashy, but groovy. The fort bump IS sexy, but there is an embarassment with the Sorc/Monk/DD build: not a great reflex save. it's good, sure, but since it's coupled with evasion, making ref saves is pretty important. and don't go hittin me with "oh just take lightning reflexes"- that's a feat, and as far as feats go, there is no room at the inn. 3 feats dedicated to dragon style, dodge, combat reflexes, elemental fist, (and if you go martial artist include weapon focus and weapon spec). that's 8! and that doesn't include any feats you may want to take for RP/non-combat purposes. Heaven forbid i take a feat that would not turn me into a combat machine. (ok my panties are untwisted now)
No, I really rather favor the barkskin ability for a 4th level quingong monk. 1 ki point gives a 40 minute boost to Nat armor.
With the build that I posted above, your reflex save, going in to DD, is +6. Like you say, not great, but not bad at all, either. An 18 dex rogue or straight monk of similar level has +8, so, it's really not all that. Your saves across the board at lv. 5 are +8, +6, +7. A straight monk at lv. 5 has base saves of +4 across the board. This build's saves are comparable to a monk with 18 con, 14 dex and 16 wis. They're all pretty hot. Also, don't think of evasion as a life saver- that will get you killed. Everyone rolls a 1 sometimes.
As far as feats go, why are you taking dodge, combat reflexes and elemental fist? I mean, dodge is always solid, and you'll probably be making some extra A's of O, but why elemental fist?
If your saves are really that troubling, you could always just go Dwarf.
I've been thinking about this build for a while now,
half-elf Qigong monk lvl 1
skill focus (knowledge planes) Crushing Blow Dodge
monk lvl 2 Deflect arrows
monk lvl 3 Dragon Style
monk lvl 4 drop slow fall for barkskin ki power
ECL 5sorc for one level (draconic bloodline of course) spells, Shield, Feather fall (to replace slow fall ability), burning hands
ECL 6 Dragon disicple lvl 1 Dragon Ferocity
ECL 7 Dragon disciple lvl 2 bloodline feat
ECL 8 Dragon Disciple lvl3 Mage Armor as bonus bloodline spell
ECL 9 Dragon Disciple lvl 4 Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal bloodline: claws
ECL 10 monk lvl 5
ECL 11 monk lvl 6 Improved trip
ECL 12 monk lvl 7 Improved eldritch heritage:Strength of the Abyssn plus 2 Str (plus 4 @ 13th lvl, plus 6 Str at 19th lvl fer a total of with 4 levels of Dragon Disciple plus 10)
monk lvl 10 Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Elemental Fist
monk lvl 11 replace diamond body with Qigong ki power Discordant Blast
monk lvl 13 Dragon Roar
monk lvl 14 Spring Attack
nice! 2 questions- Why the qigung monk love? Barkskin boosts Natural AC. Does that stack with the DD's Natural ac bumps? I thouht it did not.
Question #2 How do the dragon claws (and with the above build Abyssal claws) work in concert with monk HtH stuff? i was under the impression that they did not- H2H feats will work- i can stunning fist with my claws, but the damage will remain 1d4 regargless of my monkatude (yes it's a word. now) If I go Dragon style I still do 1 1/2 str dam with my claws, but it's still a d4. I assumed that although you CAN define a monk's HtH as an increase in die steps (and varioius sorcer claws as well) it is never stated that that is what it is so the die step increase of both the monk and sorc do not stack. Am i wrong, and if so please tell me where I can find the info. Thanks!
barkskin is not natural armor, it is an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
It's analogous to magic armor. Some is the magic, and some is the armor. You get both.
I am always a fan of this thread here.
Dragon claws specifically do not work as monk weapons, although there is a feat that allows this. Natural attacks do not increase as a result of monk unarmed damage increases. This is part of the reason MoMs is a little more favourable - you give up flurry (which doesn't scale very well) for some style feats that DO scale with DD - Dragon style in particular takes advantage of this. Two style feats active at the same time could be fairly powerful if used correctly.
As for the loss of flury, you get claw attacks for when you can do full round attacks, and still have unarmed strike for regular attacks. Claw attacks do increase in damage as part of DD, and the attacks are virtually interchangeable. Later levels mean you lose out on some lower BaB attacks for a third BaB at your full bonus (your bite attack)
In my mind there are two feats you need to take around 8-10. One is some way to recover uses of claws (there's a feat that regenerates them when you take out an enemy, or you could go the permanency route and hope your DM doesn't constantly try to dispel it just out of spite) and the second is the aformentioned feat that lets you use your natural attacks as monk weapons.
Also: since I looked it up anyways -http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat
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