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| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
So here's the interaction:
Summoner: Add +1/4 to the eidolon’s evolution pool.
A wild caller gains 1/4 his class level as bonus evolution points in his eidolon’s evolution pool...
Assuming the summoner always takes the favored class option, does this mean:
A) The summoner gets an extra evolution point at level 2 (+1/2 from favored class, +1/2 from archetype) orB) The summoner gets nothing until level 4 when he gets two evolution points?
Argument for B:
...some of these alternate favored class benefits only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1) each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result to the die roll, round down (minimum 0).
B
Why wouldn't they interact? You have half an evolution point from one source and half an evolution point from another -- why would they not add up to a whole point?
Note that this differs from BAB and saving throws, where there is an implicit formula but an explcit set of tables that overrides the formula.
In the case of the Wild Caller, if the two sources of evolution points were not intended to interact, why wouldn't the archetype make that explicit by saying that you get an evolution point at level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter rather than invoking a formula that would naturally interact with a similar formula for the favored class bonus?
I am pretty sure that A was intended.
I think it would be A. These two sources of evolution points are both actually increasing your pool by a fractional amount, and doesn't discriminate its source. The only reason that it normally doesn't show up until level 4 is because of all fractions rounding down. With fractions from several sources, if the fractions would make a whole number, it should show. (Level 2 and every 2 levels thereafter)
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I would go with A simply because it leads to a more even power progression.
My first impulse was to say B, but the argument for A actually makes a lot of sense.
A.
They're adding 1/4 evo points to your pool. If they had their own stupid bonus types (like "luck" and "divine" or whatever), then maybe B. But they're just adding to your points total. Doesn't matter if it's different sources. A level 2 Half-Elf Wild Caller using the FC option has +1/2 point and +1/2 point. So he has +1 point. They're both evo points, in fractional form.
I think the intention of the quote cited by the people who favor A is simply that the fractions round down -- so if you are a 2nd level wild caller who for some bizarre reason only took the evolution point favored class bonus once, your extra evolution points would equal 2/4 + 1/4 = 3/4, rounded down to zero.
This case differs from most other interactions between class features and favored class bonuses in that both are given as fractional forumulas, whereas most other class features are table entries with no fractions involved. For example, barbarians and rogues do not get 1/3 of their class level added to their trap sense ability -- they get +1 added every 3 levels. I cannot think of any combinations of class or archetype with favored class bonus prior to the Advanced Race Guide that worked the way the half-elf Wild Caller does -- this is definitely a new type of case.
Hmmm what does the eidolon look like? I mean an eidolon with 20 extra ep's over a base one is pretty significant.
Anyone ever make one? I'm curious as to what it would look like. No hero lab here, so I can't play with that easily.
Well, technically he would only have 10 over base. 5 from wild caller, 5 from favored class bonus. Maybe another 5 from extra evolution feats for a total of +15, or 41 evolution points at level 20. Edit: actually, I guess 40 evolution points since you can't really get that 5th feat until level 21.
Still, I imagine that the eidolon would be a freakishly powerful force of destruction. It basically lets you get the huge evolution for free. You'd just have to make sure to get a +5 amulet of mighty fists for it since it won't be able to get the magic attacks evolution to bypass DR. Also, if the eidolon goes down then you're going to have to work with Summon Nature's Ally, which is generally considered to be weaker than Summon Monster.
Hmmm what does the eidolon look like? I mean an eidolon with 20 extra ep's over a base one is pretty significant.
Anyone ever make one? I'm curious as to what it would look like. No hero lab here, so I can't play with that easily.
Well, technically he would only have 10 over base. 5 from wild caller, 5 from favored class bonus. Maybe another 5 from extra evolution feats for a total of +15, or 41 evolution points at level 20
Still, I imagine that the eidolon would be a freakishly powerful force of destruction. It basically lets you get the huge evolution for free. You'd just have to make sure to get a +5 amulet of mighty fists for it since it won't be able to get the magic attacks evolution to bypass DR. Also, if the eidolon goes down then you're going to have to work with Summon Nature's Ally, which is generally considered to be weaker than Summon Monster.
I've made and playing with it. They are indeed engines of destruction, but not having access to DR or SR makes them a lot less tankish than a standard eidolon... and over the first 16 levels you're really only netting 4 evo points total over what you could do with a standard Half-Elven Summoner, so its up to you if the trade off is worth it. Summon Nature's Ally works fine for me since I almost always summon elementals anyway.
My biggest concern, actually? What to do with my Huge Eidolon when I come across a series of 5' wide corridors.
Now, if you could talk your GM into allowing Wild Caller and Master Summoner to stack, THAT'S a character I'd love to play.
They are separate pools, so would not stack.
In any event, the FCB rules do state that "+1/4th a X" means "Every 4 times you select this, your X goes +1." That there's a second ability that's similar wouldn't change it anyhow.
Now, if you could talk your GM into allowing Wild Caller and Master Summoner to stack, THAT'S a character I'd love to play.
Ick, the First World Summoner is just bad though. At least, it isn't an option if you want your eidolon to participate in physical combat... because you're not going to be able to do that when it has a lower bab than the party wizard.
If you're going Master Summoner, you aren't going for physical combat with the eidolon anyways.
I suppose... but the First World Summoner doesn't really have the enhanced summon monster/nature's ally abilities to back up the weakened eidolon that the Master Summoner does.
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They are separate pools, so would not stack.
What separate pools? A summoner has only one pool of evolution points.
In any case, if they were separate pools, then not only would the fractional points from separate sources not stack, but the whole points would not stack either. In fact, the whole idea of "separate pools not stacking" would make it impossible to gain any more evolution points than are listed in the eidolon table in the APG, since the points from the Extra Evolution feat, the half-elf favored class bonus, and the Wild Caller Archetype are clearly all separate from the base total by level in that table.
In any event, the FCB rules do state that "+1/4th a X" means "Every 4 times you select this, your X goes +1." That there's a second ability that's similar wouldn't change it anyhow.
Take another look at those rules that you are paraphrasing -- they actually say nothing of the sort. What they actually state is that the fractional points have to add up to a full point before they have any game effect. They are completely silent about this case (new to the Advanced Race Guide) where you are getting fractional points from multiple sources.
Now, if you could talk your GM into allowing Wild Caller and Master Summoner to stack, THAT'S a character I'd love to play.No doubt. IF your GM is PFS though, you're doubly out of luck. Both archetypes are banned from PFS play.
master summoner is legal--brood master is not.
Now, if you could talk your GM into allowing Wild Caller and Master Summoner to stack, THAT'S a character I'd love to play.No doubt. IF your GM is PFS though, you're doubly out of luck. Both archetypes are banned from PFS play.
I wonder why that is? In a game that seems determined to endlessly balance itself, why would entire archetypes be banned from play?
master summoner is legal--brood master is not.Now, if you could talk your GM into allowing Wild Caller and Master Summoner to stack, THAT'S a character I'd love to play.No doubt. IF your GM is PFS though, you're doubly out of luck. Both archetypes are banned from PFS play.
I am so out of touch with PFS rules... I can't imagine why brood master would be illegal, usually its good archetypes that get whacked with the ban stick, not worthless ones.
Ick, the First World Summoner is just bad though. At least, it isn't an option if you want your eidolon to participate in physical combat... because you're not going to be able to do that when it has a lower bab than the party wizard.
Yeah, First Worlder is a crap option, whether you compare it to a standard Summoner, a Wild Caller OR a Master Summoner. Not sure why some people seem so insistent on pushing it.
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Not all archetypes are found in the campaign setting.I wonder why that is? In a game that seems determined to endlessly balance itself, why would entire archetypes be banned from play?Now, if you could talk your GM into allowing Wild Caller and Master Summoner to stack, THAT'S a character I'd love to play.No doubt. IF your GM is PFS though, you're doubly out of luck. Both archetypes are banned from PFS play.
The most prominent example of this (I feel) is the fact that all archetypes that use firearms (excluding the Gunslinger's) are not legal. It was decided as a middleground between the "Guns ruin fantasy" and "Pew Pew Numerian Space Lasers" camps.
My guess is that they banned Broodmaster to save the other players from having to twiddle their thumbs while the Broodmaster's player moves and rolls attacks for between two and eight eidolons. Why should that be more ban-able than characters who spam summons or have an eidolon with twelve arms? Beats me.
Hmmm. This is marked as "answered in FAQ" but I can't find the answer in the ARG or APG FAQs. Anyone got any ideas?
Bump. Did anyone ever find where this was officially answered?
Hmmm. This is marked as "answered in FAQ" but I can't find the answer in the ARG or APG FAQs. Anyone got any ideas?Bump. Did anyone ever find where this was officially answered?
Double Bump.