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I've been considering starting a summoner. What I'd really like to play is the master summoner or at least brood master. The idea of just swarming the BBEG is just so kool. But I don't think I can do that without taking all the play time for myself.
I am concerned about slowing things down too much. Our group is kinda large 5-6 PC most of the time. Often there is 1 or 2 NPC's traveling with the group. The group is kinda inexperienced and unorganized. So complicated fights often get bogged down already. So I don't want to be the person that really drags things to a halt.
So I've been thinking about ways to keep that from happening. The first 2 are obvious.
1) I will have a card or sheet with all the summoned monsters stats or I won't summon it.
2) Any known spell that I don't pretty much know by heart will also have a card or sheet.
After that is where the thinking starts coming in.
3) Eidelon as a mount or body guard. If the eidelon is a mount or guard that is mostly for my mobility or protection then it won't necessarily be taking separate actions. But that seems like it may be taking away most of the strength of the class and might get kinda boring since they aren't the greatest combat spell casters.
4) Eidelon as a scout. This way the edilon will still be a strong contributer, just before the fight starts. Kinda the way many wizards seem to use some of their familiars (from what I've read anyway). Then during the fights it would mostly stay out of the way unless it got a great opening or we are desperate.
5) Edilon is a main combatant and summoner is a coward. The Edilon would be built like many for melee combat. But I wouldn't take up more game time because the summoner would mostly just cast invisibility and hide during fights.
6) Simple builds and actions for both. Keep the edilon as a fairly simple build without 4 pincers, tail sting, bite, pounce, rend, and spells. Summoner take a bunch of xbow feats. Then most of the actions will be simple and direct. But again, that seems like it may be taking away most of the strength of the class and might get kinda boring.
7) I suppose the sythesist is a way to go. But from what I've read here, that seems mostly for a melee machine and I'm not really wanting to go into a melee caster.
What do you folks think about these and do you have any other ideas?
{ I don't have any App devices. }
Forgot one that I had seen on another thread.
8) If summon lots of creatures. Let other players run some of them so they don't feel left out. Not sure about this one. Sometimes our players have a hard enough time figuring out what they can/should do (especially the kinda new guys). I don't know if they would want the hassle of running the monsters I summon. It's a good idea and probably works well with some groups. I'll ask them, but I think it might be a no-go with my group.
If you prepare what you're planning on doing before your turn then you should be just fine. Just remember to have your SM sheets out and ready to rock and you'll be just fine. I suggest going Master summoner and using your Eidolon as a skill monkey. Also try and avoid summoning too many things. Improved initiative, augment summoning, and Toughness are good feats for you to have. Remember that you really only need 14 cha to make your class work its magic so you can invest in basically any other stats you want to. However I do suggest a cha of 16 and 14's in dex and con. Also, not many wizards use their familiar as a scout. Considering they'll probably be losing out on +4 to initiative and the alertness feat. Also if you want to summon multiple things then I do suggest taking superior summons.
Remember that your class is pretty good at buffing and gains access to haste at fourth level! Also you summon things at standard action speed which means your summons will get a round of actions when they come out. Another thing to remember is that you don't need to use handle animal to make them do what you want when you're doing combat oriented things. Even if you're not, unless the demand is very complex the summon should be able to do it. Summons last a minute per caster level for you so take advantage of that. Remember that your eidolon also takes whatever you want with him so he's not a half bad bank. You can sometimes even steal things then dismiss your eidolon!
The Races I recommend for Summoner are as follows, Human, Half Elf(favored 1/4 evolution pool), Catfolk(climbing Trees man),Gillman(water breathing), Ifrits(+4 init, matching the flavor of a fiendish sorcerer), Kitsune(Shapeshifting thats limited), Tengu(con hit hurts but you get a lot of languages), and Tiefling Rakshasa-Spawn(Good stats all around). As for traits I suggest reactionary(+2 init) and Diabolical Dabbler(+1 hp per hd of fiendish summons). Yes iniative is very important for a summoner. Personally I think the Ifrit would be the coolest race to use but that's just me.
Another thing you may want to consider is having several colored sets of dice, one set for each creature (or each of its attacks).
Roll the D20 and the damage dice for each creature and each of it's attacks in one big pile of dice.
This way, you only roll the dice once and already have the damage rolled if you hit.
I would also have all of your spells on cards - this way if the GM has a question, you can hand them the card.
The Master Summoner is arguably the best character in the game, while the Broodmaster can make a claim to the worst. We have a player in our group who ALWAYS plays a Master Summoner and does so superbly.
A few thoughts:
He always sticks to summoning elementals. He made small and medium versions of them to fill in the SMI and SM III that our GM has approved and that's all he uses, but he uses them to devastating effect. There is one for every occaision, whether sending air elementals after flyers and ranged foes, water elementals after undersea threats, earth elementals to walk through castle walls or rise up out of the floor, fire elementals to spread mayhem... the stories I could tell you where he made the seeming impossible possible are endless.
He always uses his eidolon as a pure scout and almost always a small one. It gets off the charts stealth and perception ranks right off the bat, has darksight and can communicate telepathically. It takes many forms depending on the character, the most common being a serpent (climb speed is nice til it gets wings) with a pair of arms... but in our recent Skull and Shackles campaign it looks like an exotic sea-elven girl - I can't tell you how useful a flying, swimming water-breathing scout has been in that AP. Offensively, he eventually invests in the UMD skilled evolution for them and always makes sure it has a wand of some sort, but most often he dismisses it before battle.
Don't worry about your summoning 'bogging down the game'. I think that perception gets thrown around a lot but I've yet to encounter it in any actual game scenario. Summoned creatures spring traps, make impossible fights doable and doable fights cake, offer a HUGE host of secondary abilities you can take advantage of and keeps party members alive by absorbing hits meant for them. Its gotten to the point that we wouldn't want to face an AP without him... and it has been said before - how can you be slowing combat down when you cut the number of rounds it takes by half?
Not every combat is appropriate for mass swarms of monsters - not even most, actually. Often as not he keeps one summoned creature out while his eidolon uses its wand, replacing it as necessary and when he does summon multiple creatures, we just roll for them all at once and keep their combat actions pretty simple.
Its a great character for an intermediate player and an amazing character for an experienced player... though I'm not sure I'd recommend it for a beginner.
One more thing:
If you decide to go with a standard Summoner, I'd encourage you to consider the Wild Caller, newly arrived in the ARG. It gets an additional 1/4 evolution point per level as does the half-elven preferred class option, giving you an additional 2 evolution points at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th levels. Extra Evolution feats can give you more points at 1st, 5th, 11th and 15th as well. Those points add up well and if used wisely can build you a real juggernaut of an eidolon. There's the drawback of some evolutions not being available to you, but that might actually help a bit since it actually streamlines your eidolon design.
Finally, there's no reason for you to stay invisible and hide. The Summoner was inexplicably given better BAB, HD and armor profeciencies than it deserves, so there's no reason you can't load up a crossbow or bust out a wand to assist in combat as well.
If you decide to go this route let me know - I think I have a build somewhere I can offer you to look at.
Woot! Nice to read a thread that is not hating on summoners for a change. My only additional thought is that as far as synthesist goes, it depends on the campaign. If you guys are planning to go the distance (18th lvl or so) then a baseline summoner is better in the long run over a synthesist. If your campaigns tend to break up before that, then by all means a synthesist is the better option.
I for one just dont understand the fascination with the Master Summoner. I mean, if you really just want to exhaust all your resources at once, sure they are ultra powerful. I guess it depends on your level and the number and CR of encounters you typically face in a game day. My real reluctance with them is that all your troops can be shut out with a protection from evil/good/chaos/law spell, which my dm would do in a heartbeat.
Of course an enemy caster would have to have the appropriate one, but they
are only 25gp apiece on scroll. Seems in a world with Summoners, carrying a few scrolls of each type would be a precaution casters would take.
Anyway, good luck with your Summoner. I hope you have fun!
I for one just dont understand the fascination with the Master Summoner. I mean, if you really just want to exhaust all your resources at once, sure they are ultra powerful. I guess it depends on your level and the number and CR of encounters you typically face in a game day. My real reluctance with them is that all your troops can be shut out with a protection from evil/good/chaos/law spell, which my dm would do in a heartbeat.
Its not really that bad. Think about this: Let's say we're talking about a 7th level Master Summoner. He can cast Summon Monster IV as a spell-like ability about 10x a day - now SMIV is a 4th level spell... at 7th level Wizards can typically cast 3 of those a day, factoring in specialization and high Intelligence and Sorcerers can;t cast them at all, but you get the equivalent of 10 - talk about resources. Moreover, you can cast it as a standard action AND have the duration extended from rounds to minutes both of which is huge. And of course by then you also have the Augmented and Superior Summoning Feats as well.
Typically we use 2-3 Summons a battle, sometimes only 1, sometimes all but 1, but the options are there and they extend WAY beyond direct combat, especially once you begin to learn all the different things that summoned monsters can do for you. Of course you also always have your other spells as well as things like wands and ranged weapons, so you're never without something to do...
A brood master built a certain quickly is feasible at higher levels. Or at least in my experience. But a base line summoner ao far seems to be one of the best. Mainly because of its simplicity. Heck one of my current players is using a Summoner and buffs the group while his Eidolon has become the co-tank alongside the Pally.
Though he rarely does so when he uses Summon Monster to bring out a different beasty it usually speeds combat up. The one time i have seen his brood master it actually done well. And his master summoner actually done horrible.
All in all it depends on the player. So YMMV. Regardless good luck and have fun.
Oh one last thought. If you have played Final Fantasy XIII think of the summoner as like Hope (the young boy who summons Alexander the holy golem) not so great for combat but is one of the best support characters in the game.
This is the vibe I get from summoners.
In fact I am building a baseline summoner based on him. Though I am looking at an alternate builds for him.
He always uses his eidolon as a pure scout and almost always a small one. It gets off the charts stealth and perception ranks right off the bat, has darksight and can communicate telepathically. It takes many forms depending on the character, the most common being a serpent (climb speed is nice til it gets wings) with a pair of arms... but in our recent Skull and Shackles campaign it looks like an exotic sea-elven girl - I can't tell you how useful a flying, swimming water-breathing scout has been in that AP. Offensively, he eventually invests in the UMD skilled evolution for them and always makes sure it has a wand of some sort, but most often he dismisses it before battle.
I'm totally getting a Peter Pan vibe off this. Not quite the same of course, but I think you could customize the summoner himself to be an athletic mobile type with a shortsword or rapier. Horribly unoptimized, but a fun concept.
Plus you get most of the mobility spells wizards get. Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Fly, Spider Climb, etc.
You could flavor your summons to be different members of the Lost Boys. It's been a long time since I read Peter Pan, but I think some of them were detailed with names, personalities, and motifs.
Easy to pick some things from the Summon Monster list to fit them.
And it doesn't need to be mentioned, but the eidolon is named "Tinkerbell." Is that what your guy was going for? Sea Campaign, Pirates, the eidolon holds a wand?
Not exactly no. His idea was a shy elemental spirit that was drawn to him at a young age growing up in a remote fishing village, taking the form of a fey girl in the hopes of appealing to him... she is a medium creature, unlike what he's done in the past making it small and could easily pass for a sea-elven girl to those who have never actually seen a sea-elven girl, though she has eyes that are all blue, as if the color of the ocean that go light to dark depending on her mood - and of course there's the wings. The concept is that he summons elementals pretty much exclusively and she's the one tutoring him in her kind so that he can summon and control ever more powerful versions of them. He RP's her as a mute who's fascinated by humanoids and has taken a recent interest in the operations of a sailing ship, the means by which an entire group of humans seek to master wind and sea which comes so easily to her (he gave her the skilled evolution for Profession: Sailor once she was on the ship long enough).
The Master Summoner is arguably the best character in the game, while the Broodmaster can make a claim to the worst. We have a player in our group who ALWAYS plays a Master Summoner and does so superbly.
A few thoughts:
He always sticks to summoning elementals. He made small and medium versions of them to fill in the SMI and SM III that our GM has approved and that's all he uses, but he uses them to devastating effect. There is one for every occaision, whether sending air elementals after flyers and ranged foes, water elementals after undersea threats, earth elementals to walk through castle walls or rise up out of the floor, fire elementals to spread mayhem... the stories I could tell you where he made the seeming impossible possible are endless.
He always uses his eidolon as a pure scout and almost always a small one. It gets off the charts stealth and perception ranks right off the bat, has darksight and can communicate telepathically. It takes many forms depending on the character, the most common being a serpent (climb speed is nice til it gets wings) with a pair of arms... but in our recent Skull and Shackles campaign it looks like an exotic sea-elven girl - I can't tell you how useful a flying, swimming water-breathing scout has been in that AP. Offensively, he eventually invests in the UMD skilled evolution for them and always makes sure it has a wand of some sort, but most often he dismisses it before battle.
Don't worry about your summoning 'bogging down the game'. I think that perception gets thrown around a lot but I've yet to encounter it in any actual game scenario. Summoned creatures spring traps, make impossible fights doable and doable fights cake, offer a HUGE host of secondary abilities you can take advantage of and keeps party members alive by absorbing hits meant for them. Its gotten to the point that we wouldn't want to face an AP without him... and it has been said before - how can you be slowing combat down when you cut the number of rounds it takes by half?
Not every combat...
I would say full casters at around level 7 or so(give or take) surpass the summoner(except the witch and the sorcerer). Also, alchemists can give them a run for their money as well.
My real reluctance with them is that all your troops can be shut out with a protection from evil/good/chaos/law spell, which my dm would do in a heartbeat.
If your GM was such an antagonistic jerk that they would have all enemies carry around scrolls of every protection spell (which can be overcome by spell resistance btw and if the spell is coming from a scroll the DC to overcome it is going to be 11, easily managed), you can throw neutral elementals at them, as previously mentioned. Summoned monsters can do a lot more than just straight attack as well.
Feral has a point especially with it being newer players. If you really want to play a summoner you could talk to your GM about using a fan-made archetype based on an Indie Game called Skin Walker. The archetype is called Gestalt Master and is based around reduced summoning in favor of you 'combining' with an extra dimensional being and talking on an eidolon form. Instead of 2 creatures you only control one though you have to take some evolutions or Druid feats to cast your spells, but it does make the summoner easier to use in a larger party. And can even seem similar to the 'Sea-Elven Girl' RP story. Though you do pay some hefty trade-ins in favor of increased proficiency with armor and weapons, becoming an Eidolon, and an increased evolution pool. Unfortunately you are the base form for the eidolon but that means your weapons and armour are usable in eidolon form.
Either way if you have a reasonable GM who is laid back then they should have no problem with it.
I would say full casters at around level 7 or so(give or take) surpass the summoner(except the witch and the sorcerer). Also, alchemists can give them a run for their money as well.
Generally speaking, in my experience, a Master Summoner will bury an equivalent level Wizard in all but the very upper eschelons and even then a case can be made either way. I've played plenty of Wizards and I love them, but at lower to middling levels Master Summoners have far more resources at their disposal... and at the higher levels, well theoretically at 20th level a Master Summoner can Gate more than a dozen Pit Fiends a day to do his bidding - or around 50 Elder Elementals a day, all under his complete control.
And that's without casting spells.
I'd just pass on summoner if you already have an over-large group.
Save it for another game.
Well, I only have 1 group it is always around 5 people. But I might hold off for a campaign (tends to be about 1.5 yrs for us).
... and it has been said before - how can you be slowing combat down when you cut the number of rounds it takes by half? ...
It may not slow down the total time. But slowed down from the perspective of other players getting bored sitting around waiting for 1 player to finish his turn.
And I have seen that myself from just druids that make much use of SNA spells.
Yep it was me. That's why I want to make sure I don't do that to them again.
I guess from what I'm reading here and other threads, I'm leaning toward option 4) edilon as scout (maybe as transport). Then limit usually my summons to simple to run creatures.
Thanks for the help folks. =)
And of course if you have any other ideas, be sure to throw them my way.