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Hi everyone,
Quick question has come up about bucklers and when you get your AC bonus.
According to the material:
"Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler."
So, in melee, absolutely, no bonus to AC as you are using an offhand or in my case a greataxe (two handed weapon).
The part that I am querying, which I thought was quite clear is this, "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
"Use" clearly means to fire an arrow/bolt.
The DM whose game I will be playing in soon has a problem with the word "carry" and states that "carrying (as in just having it)" is not "using (actually getting a benefit from)".
The other interpretation conflict is this section, "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn." His interpretation is that "In any case" refers also to bows and crossbows as well. I do not believe it does. Otherwise why would there be an entry stating that you can use them without penalty? I believe the, "In any case" refers to two-handed weapons or a weapon in your off-hand in melee, not ranged combat.
Two elements are in play here:
A) Do you have a penalty to attack?
B) Do you retain AC bonus?
Answers:
A) The penalty to attack does not apply to bows/crossbows. This is what 'you can use a bow or crossbow without penalty' is refering to.
B) You do not retain the AC bonus when you make an attack with the offhand, use a 2handed weapon, use a bow or crossbow, or cast a spell with a somatic component via the shield hand.
The bow/crossbow portion has been discussed in other threads but I do not remember if a consensus was arrived at.
- Gauss
Bloodlust: Nope. You can choose to use it at any time when you are not attacking.
Apply the buckler while flat footed or using Total Defense. As soon as you start making attacks you lose the bonus.
Bucklers are ideal for archers and crossbowmen. They can switch to total defense and apply the buckler. Alternately, they can switch to a melee weapon and not have to also ready a shield.
The normal use still applies (cannot use it while attacking with that hand) but this allows two-handed fighters and two-weapon fighters to have a bit extra defense while on total defense or flat-footed.
- Gauss
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So essentially it is a useless piece of equipment???
Limited uses, but still useful. The ranger in my game is a switch hitter... archer (+ buckler) until something comes within melee range, at which point she drops the bow, 5ft. step & draw longsword, at which point her buckler is ready.
Edit: I can see it being useful for a Bastard Sword fighter on occasion as well.
So essentially it is a useless piece of equipment???Limited uses, but still useful. The ranger in my game is a switch hitter... archer (+ buckler) until something comes within melee range, at which point she drops the bow, 5ft. step & draw longsword, at which point her buckler is ready.
Edit: I can see it being useful for a Bastard Sword fighter on occasion as well.
Why drop the bow? Buckler's on the arm, there is nothing that says you lose the AC bonus for just carrying something in your hand, like say a bow?
Bloodlust: if you are going to do that then use a heavy shield instead. It is a move action to drop a shield (buckler included).
- Gauss
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Can you do a move action and still hit?
The situation I am thinking of is that I am a primary ranged paladin. If someone should charge on over before I get a chance to shoot them, then I will get the buckler's AC benefit. With them now adjacent to me, I can drop the bow/buckler, draw greatsword and hit or not?
During a surprise round you are limited to either a standard or a move action.
During a normal round you have both a standard and a move action.
So:
The enemy charges you. You keep the shield bonus. Now the enemy is adjacent.
On your action you drop shield (move action) drop bow (free action) and draw a sword (move action). You will be unable to attack.
However, if you have quickdraw you can attack. For a switch hitter quickdraw is a necessary feat.
- Gauss
Bloodlust, perhaps you can suggest my group's house rule to your GM. If he is a pure by the book guy then I doubt he would accept it. But, you never know.
- Gauss
The ideal use for bucklers is for holding enchantments. Once the party reaches sufficient level to craft in almost every game I've played in, a +1 Light Fortification buckler is like standard-issue equipment for anyone who uses a bow.
Bloodlust: Ahhh, you hadn't stated that. :)
Well, if you ever have the money for it you can use a Ring of Force Shield or Glove of Storing.
- Gauss
Ummm, HUH? Both are magic items. Not spells.
- Gauss
Isn't there a feat that allows you to attack and keep the shield bonus from the buckler?
Edit: Sort of, not a feat, and at 19th level a fighter archetype (Thunderstriker) can do this.
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Why drop the bow? Buckler's on the arm, there is nothing that says you lose the AC bonus for just carrying something in your hand, like say a bow?
Exactly. In fact that's the exact thing my Gunslinger does when he is forced into melee combat. He holds Vera (his musket) in his left hand (the one with the buckler), and then draws his longsword, and swings away.
There were more than a few scenarios that he's done that more than he has fired the gun (for a variety of reasons).
Also note that a Masterwork Buckler (or Mithral, Darkwood, etc) carries no ACP, so is usable by anyone!
Mithral Buckler is great for arcane casters. Cheap AC bump and No spell failure.
Bucklers are great for people that use Bastard Swords or Longswords. Go two-handed when you need the hitting power, one-handed when you need the extra AC.
Isn't there a feat that allows you to attack and keep the shield bonus from the buckler?
Edit: Sort of, not a feat, and at 19th level a fighter archetype (Thunderstriker) can do this.
Rondelaro can also use a buckler to sheild bash, then you can take the feat Improved Shield Bash to bash and retain AC bonus.
Yikes, didn't notice the Necro.
Hmm, my bad. This thread actually came up when I was looking at recent threads (or so I thought). Whoops!
Bah! Damn undead thread with a decent disguise and bluff check (That or I rolled a 1 on sense necro).
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Then again, I remember reading this errata/faq. ** spoiler omitted **
With the bow/crossbow, I am inclined to allow it because of how the buckler specifically includes using it with no penalty, and the offhand is not "wielding" the weapon, which I'm assuming is up to GM discretion.
Zilkaiden, would you mind giving us a link to this?
This makes it sound like you can fire a missile weapon (bow, crossbow, musket), then "let go" with your shield arm. Thus, you could get the AC bonus for the buckler. Then, on your next turn, grasp the weapon in the off hand, fire, and release again?
I am not yet convinced that this is RAI.
Hmm...
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This makes it sound like you can fire a missile weapon (bow, crossbow, musket), then "let go" with your shield arm. Thus, you could get the AC bonus for the buckler. Then, on your next turn, grasp the weapon in the off hand, fire, and release again?
This is how I've been running my Gunslinger, since the FAQ came out, but looking back at how in the buckler description it says you lose the AC bonus "until your next turn" perhaps I have been doing it wrong.
I always have a tough time remembering the difference between bucklers and light shields.
In my opinion, the buckler is to keep your "shield hand" free, so you can still manipulate things and are able to go on the defensive in a jiffy.
Light shields are nearly the same, minus some of the handedness, but are able to make shield bashes (using it as a light off-hand weapon!)
As a side note, I'm a huge fan of the Quickdraw Shields from UE.
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Here is the link as requested. But, the buckler also states that if you "made" an attack with the off-hand, you do not gain the shield bonus to AC until your next turn. Additionally, I would rule out the musket because that is considered a "two-handed firearm," thus you would have used your offhand to fire it, bows and crossbows could have that same argument but they were somewhat separated in the description of the buckler.
I think the idea with buckler and bow, is that you hold the bow with the same hand as the buckler, and pull the string with the other hand. To get the AC bonus, you have to not use the bow, although you can still hold it.I can see where you are coming at. My reasoning is the fact that they separated bows and crossbows in the description that leads me to think they are omitted from the latter penalties. There are a lot of things that cause confusion because of this, like sorcerer's drawing spells "primarily" from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. I believe that in these kinds of situation, it's completely up to the GM until devs step in.
AFAIK, there's no penalty because of the way the buckler is strapped to your arm; it doesn't actually get in the way of a bow or crossbow, because it's on the other side of your arm.
Sorry for (re-) necroing this thread, but this issue has come up in my group.
I think the rule that you lose ac when attacking with a 2h weapon is kind of silly, and here's why:
A ring of force shield lets you activate/deactivte it as a free action, and grabbing/letting go of a 2h weapon is a free action. Drawing/storing a quickdraw shield is a free action (with quickdraw feat).
So bucklers are actually pretty useless when used with 2h weapons.
According to the rules, stowing your shield, attacking and then drawing the shield again is better/faster than having a buckler strapped to your forearm.
And another question:
You lose the buckler's ac bonus when attacking with a 2h weapon, but what if you have a +1 light fortification buckler. Do you also lose the light fortification effect?
Isn't there a feat that allows you to attack and keep the shield bonus from the buckler?
In 3.5 there was. Complete Warrior had Improved Buckler Defence which allowed you to add your shield bonus even while attacking. Races of Stone had Shielded Axe which allowed you to ignore the penalty and keep the shield bonus(so long as you were TWF with 2 particular weapons).
And another question:
You lose the buckler's ac bonus when attacking with a 2h weapon, but what if you have a +1 light fortification buckler. Do you also lose the light fortification effect?
Your still wielding it and you have to suffer penalties. Why not?
And I think the point is about balance. Or something. I dunno.
So what about TWF fighters? if i carry in one hand a dagger in another hand dagger with buckler , so all atack`s have -1 or only from my off-hand?
Necroing a thread that has already been necroed. Impressive.
Only attacks in the hand with the buckler are penalized.