How does an alchemist bomb work with an incorporeal creature.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): "Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like."
Incorporeal: "Incorporeal creatures take half damage (50%) from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects."
For full damage, there is the Force bomb* discovery.
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How does an alchemist bomb work with an incorporeal creature. Logic would say that it needs to break on impact, but there is no form to impact with. How would this work? I would think it would pass through them and land in the square behind them, giving them splash damage only.
The idea here would be that the bomb still has some of the alchemist's innate magical ability infused into it, so it would still hit the incorporeal creature and explode, just dealing half damage to that creature.
An alchemist's fire, in contrast, would not detonate, since it's not a supernatural ability.
Wait... can it even hit? I mean, holy water needs to be poured on an incorporeal creature to have any effect. Pretty sure bombs are supposed to explode when they hit things, not when they strike a magical aura. Otherwise they wouldn't explode when they miss.
Holy Water: Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water can be thrown as a splash weapon.
Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.
Temples to good deities sell holy water at cost (making no profit). Holy water is made using the bless water spell.
So... in addition you'd have to be right next to it? That or you'd be targeting its space, inflicting half damage (halved again for incorporeal).
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Wait... can it even hit?
Yes.
Bombs are Supernatural abilities.
Supernatural abilities are magical.
A magic sword can hit the ghost, just like a magic bomb or a magic beam of energy.
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Wait... can it even hit? I mean, holy water needs to be poured on an incorporeal creature to have any effect. Pretty sure bombs are supposed to explode when they hit things, not when they strike a magical aura. Otherwise they wouldn't explode when they miss.
** spoiler omitted **
So... in addition you'd have to be right next to it? That or you'd be targeting its space, inflicting half damage (halved again for incorporeal).
It wouldn't even be half damage, it would be equvalent to splash damage (act as though you've rolled minimum damage) and then halved.
I dunno, this one is tough. I still think that since an alchemist's bomb is a supernatural ability, it should hit and explode on an incorporeal creature. Holy water is just an item that has been blessed, but is not a supernatural ability by any means.
Wait... can it even hit? I mean, holy water needs to be poured on an incorporeal creature to have any effect. Pretty sure bombs are supposed to explode when they hit things, not when they strike a magical aura. Otherwise they wouldn't explode when they miss.
** spoiler omitted **
So... in addition you'd have to be right next to it? That or you'd be targeting its space, inflicting half damage (halved again for incorporeal).
It wouldn't even be half damage, it would be equvalent to splash damage (act as though you've rolled minimum damage) and then halved.
I dunno, this one is tough. I still think that since an alchemist's bomb is a supernatural ability, it should hit and explode on an incorporeal creature. Holy water is just an item that has been blessed, but is not a supernatural ability by any means.
Wait a minute... are you guys saying that holy water's ability to harm undead isn't magic?
I was just saying I'm not sure how a bomb triggers seeing as it has to strike something corporeal/physical. See Bombs:
Bomb (Su): In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb's minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier.
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist's bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.
It's magic so it can hurt- but it's a ranged splash weapon, much like the holy water. Can it actually strike the incorporeal creature, or would you have to make them detonate nearby?
Holy water is odd though. Infused with positive energy, but not actually positive energy...
It's magic so it can hurt- but it's a ranged splash weapon, much like the holy water. Can it actually strike the incorporeal creature, or would you have to make them detonate nearby?
You're saying a magic attack uses the same underlying method as a non-magical attack to justify the magic attack not working?
Bomb (magic) hits incorporeal creatures. Holy water (non-magic) doesn't.
Sun Blade (magic) hits incorporeal creatures. Torch (non-magic) doesn't.
Scorching Ray (magic) hits incorporeal creatures. Firearm (non-magic) doesn't.
It doesn't matter if you're making a Throw Splash Weapon attack, a melee attack, or a ranged touch attack, if it's magic, it works.
I'm saying they're both ranged splash weapons. The mechanism for activating them is the same. They hit something and shatter.
Would an incorporeal creature set off a shocking grasp trap on a door if it phased into it? The payload is magic, but the activation method is very corporeal.
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I'm saying they're both ranged splash weapons. The mechanism for activating them is the same. They hit something and shatter.
Would an incorporeal creature set off a shocking grasp trap on a door if it phased into it? The payload is magic, but the activation method is very corporeal.
I agree with you that both things need to "hit something and shatter" but the question here is whether an alchemist's bomb, since its' a Supernatural ability, would hit the incorporeal creature and shatter, unlike holy water, which is a mundane item with an infusion of positive energy, which is why it needs to be opened and poured onto the creature.
While it doesn't make tons of mechanical sense, technically by the rules an alchemist's bomb would hit an incorporeal creature and explode (again, because it's a Supernatural ability), dealing half damage since it's a corporeal attack.
Also, there's nothing specifically saying that an alchemist's bomb needs to shatter to explode. It COULD be that the alchemist's bombs are more like TNT with a VERY short fuse, and the ranged touch attack is actually just to get the bomb close enough to the creature to fully affect them with the explosion. A creature can dodge it, letting it land in an adjacent square, and then they just take "splash" damage.
I digress. The point is, RAW says the alchemist's bomb would hit and explode on an incorporeal creature.
Magic Swords can "hit" an incorporeal creature? Why not Magic Bomb vials?
An alchemist could even damage an incorporeal from some feet away, because he can target the square the incorporeal is in and deal his alchemist splash damage. So Int bonus +2 damage vs 2d4 when poured over --> good tradeoff.
An alchemist could even damage an incorporeal from some feet away, because he can target the square the incorporeal is in and deal his alchemist splash damage. So Int bonus +2 damage vs 2d4 when poured over --> good tradeoff.
Can you pour bombs?
Can you pour bombs?An alchemist could even damage an incorporeal from some feet away, because he can target the square the incorporeal is in and deal his alchemist splash damage. So Int bonus +2 damage vs 2d4 when poured over --> good tradeoff.
I forgot to mention the one quoting that holy water can not be thrown at incorporeals but has to be poured over them.
I forgot to mention the one quoting that holy water can not be thrown at incorporeals but has to be poured over them.Can you pour bombs?An alchemist could even damage an incorporeal from some feet away, because he can target the square the incorporeal is in and deal his alchemist splash damage. So Int bonus +2 damage vs 2d4 when poured over --> good tradeoff.
I mean, you can do that with Holy Water, but can you do it with Bombs?
Would the Bombs still splash?
Would Precise Bombs still work?
Precise bombs: Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb, he can select a number of squares equal to his Intelligence modifier that are not affected by the splash damage from his bombs. If the bomb misses, this discovery has no effect.
The ability to make bombs is supernatural, the substance inside that goes boom is supernatural. The "Vial" is just glass, so it stands to reason it would pass through
If you really need fluff to justify it, why wouldn't the "infusion of magical reserves" make entire thing magical, rather than just the liquid?
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The ability to make bombs is supernatural, the substance inside that goes boom is supernatural. The "Vial" is just glass, so it stands to reason it would pass throughIf you really need fluff to justify it, why wouldn't the "infusion of magical reserves" make entire thing magical, rather than just the liquid?
Agreed. Plus, alchemists don't need to buy mundane glass vials, so who's to say that the bomb is actually IN a glass vial? That's all fluff.
Agreed. Plus, alchemists don't need to buy mundane glass vials, so who's to say that the bomb is actually IN a glass vial? That's all fluff.The ability to make bombs is supernatural, the substance inside that goes boom is supernatural. The "Vial" is just glass, so it stands to reason it would pass throughIf you really need fluff to justify it, why wouldn't the "infusion of magical reserves" make entire thing magical, rather than just the liquid?
Well, they do have to buy an Alchemists Kit, which contains everything needed to make bombs and such, but the kit is non-specific as to what's in it.
In any case, the Alchemist DOES need to buy mundane components (whatever they may be) to make his bombs.
Agreed. Plus, alchemists don't need to buy mundane glass vials, so who's to say that the bomb is actually IN a glass vial? That's all fluff.The ability to make bombs is supernatural, the substance inside that goes boom is supernatural. The "Vial" is just glass, so it stands to reason it would pass throughIf you really need fluff to justify it, why wouldn't the "infusion of magical reserves" make entire thing magical, rather than just the liquid?
Well, they do have to buy an Alchemists Kit, which contains everything needed to make bombs and such, but the kit is non-specific as to what's in it.
In any case, the Alchemist DOES need to buy mundane components (whatever they may be) to make his bombs.
They don't "need" an alchemist kit as that is only needed when crafting alchemical items.
components for bombs are like 0gp cost materials wizards need to cast spells. same for their extracts without expensive components. its not tracked and no kit is needed.
but a GM can say that having being captured and striped of all equipment you like the wizard has no components and therefore can't use your abilites
Well, they do have to buy an Alchemists Kit, which contains everything needed to make bombs and such, but the kit is non-specific as to what's in it.
In any case, the Alchemist DOES need to buy mundane components (whatever they may be) to make his bombs.
They don't "need" an alchemist kit as that is only needed when crafting alchemical items.
components for bombs are like 0gp cost materials wizards need to cast spells. same for their extracts without expensive components. its not tracked and no kit is needed.
but a GM can say that having being captured and striped of all equipment you like the wizard has no components and therefore can't use your abilites
No, they "need" an Alchemist's Kit.
The components to make bombs are very much like the 0gp cost materials Wizards need to cast spells. Wizards' material components for spells are included in a Spell Component Pouch; Alchemists' components for Bombs, Extracts, and Mutagens are included in an Alchemist's Kit. Wizards need a pouch, Alchemists need a kit.
Alchemists don't need anything other than raw materials to craft alchemical items.
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.
Alchemist's Kit: An alchemist with an alchemist's kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost. An alchemist's kit provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks
Alchemist's Lab: This lab is used for making alchemical items, and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. It has no bearing on the costs related to the Craft (alchemy) skill. Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill but not enough to get the +2 bonus that the lab provides.
Speaking of pouring holy water. That has never made sense to me. If the vial passes through the ghost, then necessarily, the ghost will pass through the vial and touch the holy water.
If anything, holy water should be more effective against ghosts since they get the full dose.