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I play a gunslinger and I have had several people groan and tell me how broken they are....I must be doing something wrong cause it seems to me like it is a pretty balanced class. The damage output is offset by the cost and reloading rules or it seems to me.
I am currently a 2nd level gunslinger and to be real effective it seems I need 3 feats, point blank, precise shot and rapid reload. right now I have 2 of the 3 and I can fire every other round..since reloading a pistol is standard action...lol and i do a whole 1d8. I know it is against touch so it is easier to hit but it seems they slowed down the damage output.
I know at eleventh level I can take lightening reload and reload as a swift action. By that time I will have multiple attacks I will be able to reload one barrel a round as a swift action. So with even with the pepper box I 2 rounds of full attack before I need to reload which will take me 2 rounds to fully reload. (2 from the swift actions on the two rounds firing, 2 move actions a one swift to load 3 more rounds and then one more move action to reload) so over 8 rounds I will do ~12d8. t actually seems kind of low at 11th level. I suppose I could have multiple pepper boxes with some enhancements so it would be more.
I guess it seems balanced to me...either that or I am missing something.
You can switch Rapid Reload with Alchemical Cartridge depending on the weapon. (they apparently don't combine their effects)
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With both paper alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload (pistol), you can reload a pistol as a free action.
I don't think precise shot is essential; hitting is the least of your problems. My gunslinger's first four feats are Rapid Reload (pistol), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim. I'll probably take Precise Shot at 5th level.
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You can switch Rapid Reload with Alchemical Cartridge depending on the weapon. (they apparently don't combine their effects)I don't believe that's true; do you have a citation?
Neither of them mention they stack. so by RAW it should be houserule.
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They do combine, so you can reload as a free action and take all your attacks as a full action when you have more then one.
Played multiple gunslingers, I don't find them broken. The only problem that I run into is that some people believe guns have no place in fantasy
edit: Also remember that you never reload as a swift action, it's full round to standard action to move action to free action. I can cite my sources, but just google on the subject. There are literally hundreds of posts about this.
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Exploding weapons, expensive ammo, gun-hating DMs.
I'd say whatever boon you get as a Gunslinger, has it's price.
I have seen it in action, and the fighter still wins out in damage.
Most problems arise when DMs are new to gunslinger tactics and mechanics, just like most classes not in the core rulebook.
DM that understand the class, know it is not nearly as OP as some think.
Hell, some think the Samurai is overpowered because they are proficient with the <gasp> Katana.
By the way, I hate the term "cheese" and it's highly fluctuating definition.
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Neither of them mention they stack. so by RAW it should be houserule.
There are no stacking rules on reduced action times. Therefore no such mention is needed and they do stack.
Find me anything anywhere that says differently and I'll be shocked.
Indeed, why is there even a listing for what Alchemical Cartridges redue a Move Action to in reload times if they don't? No firearm reloads as a move action without Rapid Reload.
To the OP: Use Alchemical Cartridges (paper ones specifically), they'll reduce your reloading to a Move Action. Gunslingers are only even potentially broken at higher levels, anyway.
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Here are the rules I believe allow me to reload as a swift action...Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload.
Rapid Reload (Combat)
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single
type of one-handed or two-handed f irearm that you are
prof icient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.
Prerequisites:Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen)
or Exotic Weapon Prof iciency (f irearm).
Benef it:The time required for you to reload your chosen
type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or
light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed f irearm), or a standard action (two-handed f irearm).
Reloading a crossbow or f irearm still provokes attacks
of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or
light crossbow, you may f ire that weapon as many times
in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were
using a bow.
Normal:A character without this feat needs a move
action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action
to reload a one-handed f irearm, or a full-round action to
load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed f irearm.
Special:You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each
time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow
or a new type of firearm.
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed f irearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity
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As far as the general brokenness/cheesiness of gunslingers goes comes it's the duel wielding pistols (or double barreled pistols) and using up close and deadly that really breaks things.
They are generally hated because of the sheer amount of damage you can do (brokenness) and the act I like to call 'gun juggling' so you can reload (cheesiness).
The biggest flaw I can see in the build is up until 13th level misfires are going to make you their b&@~$. But as it has been pointed out, misfires don't mean much when you kill people in one round, which can still happen.
Also to avoid Gunslinger hate, don't use a double hackbutt. You really should go adventuring with one of those, they really should have been classed as siege weapons.
I know at eleventh level I can take lightening reload and reload as a swift action. By that time I will have multiple attacks I will be able to reload one barrel a round as a swift action. So with even with the pepper box I 2 rounds of full attack before I need to reload which will take me 2 rounds to fully reload. (2 from the swift actions on the two rounds firing, 2 move actions a one swift to load 3 more rounds and then one more move action to reload) so over 8 rounds I will do ~12d8. t actually seems kind of low at 11th level. I suppose I could have multiple pepper boxes with some enhancements so it would be more.
I guess it seems balanced to me...either that or I am missing something.
actually it'd be more like ~12d8 + ~12*dex mod because of gun training, assuming you take gun training with the pepper box that is, but why wouldn't you?
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Gunslinger is really not OP at all... If you look at the flat numbers for Damage and things like that, an Archer fighter will outdamage a gunslinger consistently right up until near max levels, especially if you limit the availability of advanced firearms (as I typically do). If you look at the sweet spot for play, say, 6th to 12th level where the majority of campaigns play out, they're even a little sub-par. Without a substantial investment of wealth in alchemical paper cartridges and the Rapid Reload feat, you don't really get a legitimate full attack until you get Deadshot at 7th level where you can roll your iteratives into a single shot with an extra die for each successful attack. Meanwhile, your 7th level Archer has Manyshot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim, so his longbow is only rolling a marginally smaller die, he'll have weapon training, and he's looking at a minimum of +5 damage per hit (not including base die and enchantments and any potential STR bonus, which will never be available to the GS). The gunslinger has a higher potential to hit against many opponents, but the fighter will not be missing that often, and a single shot from the fighter can count for two or three from the gunslinger. Plus, since the gunslinger is spending at least 10 gold a shot if he's using alchemical cartridges to make full attacks modified by Deadly Aim, the fighter is going to have a massive leg up on him in wealth accumulation for enhancements and gear. Plus, the Gunslinger who selects feats like Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus applies them to a single model of gun. So the Rapid Reload you took for your starting pistol doesn't apply to those revolvers you get later on.
When you compare apples and apples here, Gunslinger is more like a bard who trades his spells and buffs for a full BAB and a cool weapon. He's not even a little OP.
Yeah, the Gunslinger is pretty OP. Classes which have a limitless attack on touch AC get way too good at the higher levels, especially since Misfire becomes non-existant then. Our Gunslinger routinely kills at level 14 an Iron Golem in one round and shoot the second one to half HP.
It also has some stupidly good specials, like automatically tripping opponents of any size if they hit with two consecutive attacks. Yes, a Gunslinger can trip a colossal red dragon without having to do anything but hit a very low touch AC and spend one Grit.
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FWIW, I don't find gunslinger's over-powered. They are glass cannons... There are legitimate magus builds focusing on shocking grasp, archers, and flanking rogues that deal frightening damage.
So what? Gunslingers don't heal, control the battlefield, or tank. Players who focus solely on damage output potentially miss significantly more powerful tactics.
cheers
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The biggest complaint I have heard is that they are about as close to SAD as any class in pathfinder. That and a lot of people ignore the fact that your gun can blow up in your face.
Gunslingers are powerful and excell in many ways, both on and off the field of battle, but are not OP. I have a 5th level pistolero in PFS. When making a Rapid Shot with his double pistol he recieves four attacks at +6 (+5 Dex, +5BAB, +1 magic, +1 PB Shot, -2 Rapid Shot, -4 Double Pistol) that deal 1d8+11 (+5 Dex, +1 magic, +1 PB shot, +4 Deadly Aim) damage. Not to mention his first attack deals an extra 2d6 damage with one grit point. That is huge compared to an optimized archer and will get even better at 6th level when his total attacks jumps to six.
However, he rarely ever combines repid shot with double shot because when using double shot you must fire twice even if the first is a misfire. This greatly increases the chance of your weapon exploding (which has occured once) and forced me to carry an extra double pistol around just in case. Why? Because without a Gun you are a sub-par archer.
A properly built gunslinger will have more attacks than any archer because he uses a double weapon. He will also deal far more damage because he should focus completely in Dex. His attacks will hit more often because target AC is far lower. However because the gunslinger is only effective at close range they are balanced. Also, gunslingers are not glass cannon's at all. They recieve a class bonus to AC, focus completely on Dex, and have 1d10 HD.
Dual wielding isn't viable until after 13th level when there are no misfire chances. Before that time the odds of misfire are too great. Afterwards, when combined with signature deed, the gunslinger has massive DPR even without cheesy dual wielding.
All that being said if cheese is used to dual wield then yes they become OP. If not then they are fantastic at what they're meant to do but require intelligent players to be effective.
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The biggest complaint I have heard is that they are about as close to SAD as any class in pathfinder. That and a lot of people ignore the fact that your gun can blow up in your face.Gunslingers are powerful and excell in many ways, both on and off the field of battle, but are not OP. I have a 5th level pistolero in PFS. When making a Rapid Shot with his double pistol he recieves four attacks at +6 (+5 Dex, +5BAB, +1 magic, +1 PB Shot, -2 Rapid Shot, -4 Double Pistol) that deal 1d8+11 (+5 Dex, +1 magic, +1 PB shot, +4 Deadly Aim) damage. Not to mention his first attack deals an extra 2d6 damage with one grit point. That is huge compared to an optimized archer and will get even better at 6th level when his total attacks jumps to six.
However, he rarely ever combines repid shot with double shot because when using double shot you must fire twice even if the first is a misfire. This greatly increases the chance of your weapon exploding (which has occured once) and forced me to carry an extra double pistol around just in case. Why? Because without a Gun you are a sub-par archer.
A properly built gunslinger will have more attacks than any archer because he uses a double weapon. He will also deal far more damage because he should focus completely in Dex. His attacks will hit more often because target AC is far lower. However because the gunslinger is only effective at close range they are balanced. Also, gunslingers are not glass cannon's at all. They recieve a class bonus to AC, focus completely on Dex, and have 1d10 HD.
Dual wielding isn't viable until after 13th level when there are no misfire chances. Before that time the odds of misfire are too great. Afterwards, when combined with signature deed, the gunslinger has massive DPR even without cheesy dual wielding.
All that being said if cheese is used to dual wield then yes they become OP. If not then they are fantastic at what they're meant to do but require intelligent players to be effective.
Firearms, like crossbows, take two hands to load, so even with rapid shot and alchemical cartridges, you're only full attacking every other round, and then at a maximum of four shots with your two double barrels, so the number of attacks goes back to the archer. I have a feeling you're getting away with something you probably can't actually do by the rules, unless you can show me where you're stowing your off-hand gun and then redrawing it as two free actions.
**EDIT** 4 free actions, you need to reload both guns.
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So, as I mentioned previously, most people who think Gunslinger's are OP either haven't really looke at the class, or have people who are cheesing it up pretty bad. It takes a move action to stow or pick up a weapon, and I'm not aware of any ability that changes this. It takes two hands to reload a firearm, and I'm not aware of anything that changes this. I'd be happy to be corrected here, but unless someone can point out to me where it says otherwise, a TWF gunslinger is still losing two move actions every other round to reload both his weapons. You're better off using a single pistol with Rapid Reload and alchemical paper cartridges, you'll end up with more attacks over the course of a fight and won't be spending every other round reloading. Or needing to buy 20 guns to get you through a fight of firing and dropping and Quick Drawing new ones.
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**EDIT** 4 free actions, you need to reload both guns.
Well my character does not dual wield. He is only firing a double pistol which grants an additional attack every time you attack but both attacks suffer a -4 penalty. So one attack becomes two at -4, two attacks become four all at -4, ect.
As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges. Dual Wielding is accomplished using weapon cords. One weapon begins "dropped" while the other is in hand. You fire all your attacks with the weapon in hand then free action drop and swift action retrieve the one dangling. You then fire all your off-hand attacks. Repeat the next round. If your GM states that reloading is a finer action then gloves of storing are required. This is legitamate per RAW but many refer to it as cheese because it looks ridiculous.
The gunslinger does not need to dual wield to outdamage a normal archer anyways.
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**EDIT** 4 free actions, you need to reload both guns.
Well my character does not dual wield. He is only firing a double pistol which grants an additional attack every time you attack but both attacks suffer a -4 penalty. So one attack becomes two at -4, two attacks become four all at -4, ect.
As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges. Dual Wielding is accomplished using weapon cords. One weapon begins "dropped" while the other is in hand. You fire all your attacks with the weapon in hand then free action drop and swift action retrieve the one dangling. You then fire all your off-hand attacks. Repeat the next round. If your GM states that reloading is a finer action then gloves of storing are required. This is legitamate per RAW but many refer to it as cheese because it looks ridiculous.
The gunslinger does not need to dual wield to outdamage a normal archer anyways.
As far as I am aware, there is absolutely nothing in the RAW about weapon cords. Please show me where this is written. Also, even if you can reference that, you are limited to one swift action per round, so you would only be retrieving one of those guns. You run into the same issue with the Glove of Storing, which only works on one hand and cannot be used in conjunction with another glove of storing. So your best case scenario with your level 5 gunslinger, using a single double-barrel pistol is what? 20 dex for plus +5, +5 BAB, +1 magic, +1 PB Shot, -2 Rapid Shot, -4 Double Barrel, and you forgot in your ost to add in the -2 for your deadly aim, giving you a full attack of=
+4/+4/+4/+4, not +6, and a damage of 1d8+11. Not bad if you're fighting zombies and other slow-moving creatures, but that's a 50% or less chance to hit the touch ac of almost any level appropriate monster, in exchange for a 15% misfire rate, per shot. If you have the bad luck to have your gun misfire on the first shot, you're up to a 25% chance of your gun blowing up when you make that second attack roll. Not to mention your best case scenario there is taking down one or two enemies of a lower level than you since even though you're making four attacks, you're limited to two targets.
As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges.
Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
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Compare that to a 5th level zen archer who can make two attacks at +9/+9 for 1d8+5, never provokes from ranged, hasn't had to dump all his feats into making his weapon functional, and can boost the die of his bow to match his UAS damage as he levels (not to mention having better saves), or a fighter Archer who can make his attacks at +10/+10 for 1d8+6, and will be doubling that damage with an extra attack and Manyshot at the next level, neither of whom need a magic item to make their attack routine even feasible, nor who are spending a minimum of 10 gold per shot on ammunition. You might be able to burst a bit higher with the gunslinger, but a well built archer needs much less wealth investment to be functional, doesn't rely on a magic item that may or may not be available, and is typically going to be much safer if enemies close in melee than the gunslinger.
**EDIT** I would probably also call BS on the Glove of storing working more than once per attack sequence, since you've got a free action to store, a free action to reload, and a free action to retrieve, just to reload the first gun. You'd then have to juggle the guns to opposite hands and reinitiate the sequence. I can't find a rule on what action it is to juggle guns from one hand to another, but it does specifically call out that there is a reasonable limit to the number of free actions you can take in a round, and I'm thinking you're pushing it pretty far here.
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As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges.Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
Rapid Reload lowers the selected firearms reload speed by one step, and then alchemical cartridges lower it by one more, so for a one-handed firearm, this does make it a free action to reload. However, even if you craft them yourself, you're spending like 40 gold a round at fifth level to make a full attack with them.
As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges.Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
That deed is needed in order to reload early two handed firearms. Early one handed firearms can be reloaded as a free action with just rapid reload + alchemical cartiges.
Now to answer the OP:
Well if you stay away from advanced firearms (haven't seen those in action nor read them more than twice) and you stay away from the (IMO) stupid reading of the double barrel pistol which doubles the number of your attacks then you are fine. The gunslinger isn't a broken class, sure it might need some adjustment from the DM because the touch AC full BAB attack thing is kinda a new thing for the game.
Now some people (me included) don't like guns in general for their games, thus dissallowing them in their games. The same goes for the asian stuff (which for them most i don't find them overpowered either)
That deed is needed in order to reload early two handed firearms. Early one handed firearms can be reloaded as a free action with just rapid reload + alchemical cartiges.As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges.Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
I think ACs were supposed to go Full round > Standard > Move > Swift > Free ; instead of going from Move to Free directly.
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As far as I am aware, there is absolutely nothing in the RAW about weapon cords. Please show me where this is written. Also, even if you can reference that, you are limited to one swift action per round, so you would only be retrieving one of those guns.
Just look up Weapon Cords on Pathfinder SRD. And you only require one swift action since one weapon is already in your hand. There really isn't any reason to debate this there are multiple threads discussing this topic and it has been proven RAW.
You are correct it is only +4 and are proving my point that it is not OP. Yes, it puts out massive damage but at a massive cost. However it works wonders against a low touch AC BBEG.
Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
It is true and Lightning Reload is useless.
Compare that to a 5th level zen archer who can make two attacks at +9/+9 for 1d8+5, never provokes from ranged, hasn't had to dump all his feats into making his weapon functional, and can boost the die of his bow to match his UAS damage as he levels (not to mention having better saves), or a fighter Archer who can make his attacks at +10/+10 for 1d8+6, and will be doubling that damage at the next level, neither of whom need a magic item to make their attack routine even feasible, nor who are spending a minimum of 10 gold per shot on ammunition.
Well we have a zen archer in our normal PFS. With Rapid shot you're looking at my +8/+8 1d8+11 vs. +9/+9 1d8+5... Gunslinger wins. You're absolutely right the zen archer has more bells and whistles I'm not stating the gunslinger is OP simply he does the best DPR. And with the excess amount of resources they spend Gunslingers should deal more damage.
As for money, yes in a homebrew a gunslinger's effectiveness depends on the GM. However in PFS you pay 50% (6gp) per shot with an alchemical charge.
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That deed is needed in order to reload early two handed firearms. Early one handed firearms can be reloaded as a free action with just rapid reload + alchemical cartiges.As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges.Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
I think ACs were supposed to go Full round > Standard > Move > Swift > Free ; instead of going from Move to Free directly.
From the PRD:
"Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)"And:
"Early Firearms: Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring bullets or pellets and black powder to be rammed down the muzzle. If an early firearm has multiple barrels, each barrel must be loaded separately. It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm"
So Rapid Reload takes it from Standard to Move, and cartridges take it to free.
**EDIT** Although, I suppose you could always argue that since Alchemical Cartridges don't have anything saying otherwise, they are alchemical items and would thus require a move action to draw. Technically, it's an item containing the ammunition, not actual ammunition which is free to draw. But that's just semantics and probably not RAI. So there's that.
That deed is needed in order to reload early two handed firearms. Early one handed firearms can be reloaded as a free action with just rapid reload + alchemical cartiges.As for reloading, they are free actions per RAW with rapid reload + alchemical charges.Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.
I think ACs were supposed to go Full round > Standard > Move > Swift > Free ; instead of going from Move to Free directly.
No, it's full round (for two handed early firearms) > standard > move > free.
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As far as I am aware, there is absolutely nothing in the RAW about weapon cords. Please show me where this is written. Also, even if you can reference that, you are limited to one swift action per round, so you would only be retrieving one of those guns.Just look up Weapon Cords on Pathfinder SRD. And you only require one swift action since one weapon is already in your hand. There really isn't any reason to debate this there are multiple threads discussing this topic and it has been proven RAW.
You are correct it is only +4 and are proving my point that it is not OP. Yes, it puts out massive damage but at a massive cost. However it works wonders against a low touch AC BBEG.
Which would make a certain Deed useless if true.It is true and Lightning Reload is useless.
Compare that to a 5th level zen archer who can make two attacks at +9/+9 for 1d8+5, never provokes from ranged, hasn't had to dump all his feats into making his weapon functional, and can boost the die of his bow to match his UAS damage as he levels (not to mention having better saves), or a fighter Archer who can make his attacks at +10/+10 for 1d8+6, and will be doubling that damage at the next level, neither of whom need a magic item to make their attack routine even feasible, nor who are spending a minimum of 10 gold per shot on ammunition.Well we have a zen archer in our normal PFS. With Rapid shot you're looking at my +8/+8 1d8+11 vs. +9/+9 1d8+5... Gunslinger wins. You're absolutely right the zen archer has more bells and whistles I'm not stating the gunslinger is OP simply he does the best DPR. And with the excess amount of resources they spend Gunslingers should deal more damage.
As for money, yes in a homebrew a gunslinger's effectiveness depends on the GM. However in PFS you pay 50% (6gp) per shot with an alchemical charge.
Still only one swift action a round with the weapon cord, so you can retrieve one weapon, once. Where is your +8/+8 coming from? You've got 5 dex, 5 BAB, 1 PB Shot, -2 Deadly Aim and -4 double barrel, or -2 rapid shot to take the shots separately. That's between a +5/+5 and a +7/+7, so your math is off. And 5th level is a sweeter spot for Gunslingers than Archers, 6th and 7th is where your bow wielders will be taking off. A bow wielding Sohei will be up to +12/+12/+12/+12/+9 for a 1d8+9 each with a +1 weapon at 7th. Compared to a best case scenario for you of either +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1 or +10/+10/+5, still at a 1d8+11. I won't even get into the odds of how often you should actually be making a ful attack with the 20 ft range of your gun vs. the 80 ft range of my bow, but that's going to skew the numbers even more in my favor. And my bow will never explode, while you're running a 15% chance per shot fired of a misfire during a full attack. Run a fight that goes more than two rounds and see who ends it with most damage dealt.
For pure damage potential in a single attack routine where everything goes right, Gunslinger wins. For total effectiveness and damage dealt over the course of a day, guy with a bow wins.
I guess it seems balanced to me...either that or I am missing something.
To summarize the answers, yes the gunslinger is balanced among the other glass cannon builds in Pathfinder. You are not missing anything.
cheers
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Run a fight that goes more than two rounds and see who ends it with most damage dealt.
Everything will be dead at the gunslinger's feet in two rounds lol. And the additional +1 is from magic weapon. You're also forgetting that the Gunslinger is hitting touch AC .Where as an archer's opponents will have scaling AC the Gunslingers will have a flat average 14 touch.
However you are correct the sweet spot of a gunslinger is lvl 5 and everything after 13 (assuming the gunsliner is optimized a.k.a a Pistolero). Pistolero and archer are even around levels 1-4, then pistolero advantage 5-8, then archer 9-13, then pistolero from then on. Once he has no misfire the Pistolero using a double pistol will have 8 attacks per round at -6 all targeting an average touch of 14 and doing +3d6 damage. If his shot misses the target will still take half of 3d6 damage.
The gunslinger isn't a broken class, sure it might need some adjustment from the DM because the touch AC full BAB attack thing is kinda a new thing for the game.
Will anybody tell me how you adjust as a GM to that? Because only rolling out "high touch AC" monsters ( i.e. incorporeals ) kinda ruins diversity in your adventure.
The gunslinger isn't a broken class, sure it might need some adjustment from the DM because the touch AC full BAB attack thing is kinda a new thing for the game.Will anybody tell me how you adjust as a GM to that? Because only rolling out "high touch AC" monsters ( i.e. incorporeals ) kinda ruins diversity in your adventure.
I am not quite sure how to do that (since i don't allow guns in my games for asthetic reasons), but i can think of a few things. The first is to take the monsters touch AC into consideration when you are thinking what you are going to throw to your players (before guns, i didn't even look at the touch AC of the monster), second is stay a little away from the bulky heavy hitter monsters (but not remove them entirely), that includes dinosaurs, giants and most huge+ monsters, third i think that you need to indlude more NPC opponents (i think that humanoid enemies tend to have more touch AC). Aside from that, the terrain (cover, low cover etc.) is something that you need consider (like you would do with archers) but also you need to consider the distance (something you don't usually do with archers).
I am not quite sure how to do that (since i don't allow guns in my games for asthetic reasons), but i can think of a few things. The first is to take the monsters touch AC into consideration when you are thinking what you are going to throw to your players (before guns, i didn't even look at the touch AC of the monster), second is stay a little away from the bulky heavy hitter monsters (but not remove them entirely), that includes dinosaurs, giants and most huge+ monsters, third i think that you need to indlude more NPC opponents (i think that humanoid enemies tend to have more touch AC). Aside from that, the terrain (cover, low cover etc.) is something that you need consider (like you would do with archers) but also you need to consider the distance (something you don't usually do with archers).The gunslinger isn't a broken class, sure it might need some adjustment from the DM because the touch AC full BAB attack thing is kinda a new thing for the game.Will anybody tell me how you adjust as a GM to that? Because only rolling out "high touch AC" monsters ( i.e. incorporeals ) kinda ruins diversity in your adventure.
Gunslinger vs Gunslinger?
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Hey kaisc006, quick question. I'm looking at building a goblin gunslinger pistolero, and in that case is the goblin gunlsinger feat really worth it? Moving from 1d6 to 1d8 when you need rapid reaload, rapid shot, point blank, and deadly aim just doesn't seem worth it. Also, I'm trying to build this character for a short game that will probably end around level 9, anything different to be aware of for stoppping early?
Things to consider are you're not going to get free misfires at level 13 so you might want your +2 enchantment to be reliable. Also, you won't have access to signature deed(Up close and Deadly) so to get better DPR I threw in extra grit. I'd stay away from the goblin gunslinger feat. You're right the feat tax is too high and you wouldn't be able use a feat for it till at least 6th level. I'd suggest this feat build for a double pistol user. If not using the double pistol then pick up Rapid Shot at level 4.
1st: Rapid Reload
3rd: Point Blank Shot
4th: Deadly Aim
5th: Precise Shot
7th: Rapid Shot
8th: Extra Grit
9th: Weapon Focus (Double Pistol)
Will anybody tell me how you adjust as a GM to that? Because only rolling out "high touch AC" monsters ( i.e. incorporeals ) kinda ruins diversity in your adventure.
There is no need to tailor encounters against the gunslinger as it is a balanced class. If a GM feels gunslingers are OP, then he doesn't have to allow them into his home campaign. IMHO tailoring encounters against PCs is a bad habit. Punishing a PC by metagame targetting him and such frustrates the player and he'll lose trust in the GM. There is much much more to memorable/great encounters than one built specifically to hamper PC abilities.
Look, aside from having just in the present a really bad experience with the Gunslinger as a GM ( partly my own fault for allowing two six-shooter non-revolvers, so that the player could go with his idea of a two-weapon Gunslinger. Why again did they use one for their iconic character again? ) and being quite convinced by now that it is a broken POS class, putting other Gunslingers into the game world to provide some challenge goes against game lore.
I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of making guns more commonplace on Golarion, because that would put into motion a lot of logical consequences, which I don't want to deal with in my fantasy gaming. The player already wanted to introduce cannons to the world at large and I had to shoot him down hard on that account.
So, my advice to GMs: Spare yourself the headache, disallow the class, unless you are playing in Alkenstar.
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It sounds like you plan to shoot all attacks with one hand, using both hands to reload, then drop your primary weapon, swift draw your offhand weapon and fire all of your offhand attacks while again using two hands to reload. Aside from being patently ridiculous, it is also against the rules.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
You must use all of your attacks in order from highest to lowest. You can choose to attack with your primary or offhand first, but your next shot will have to be with the other hand, which has the next highest bonus.
Think about it for a minute. If you have time to fire and reload 4 shots with your main hand, then had time to draw and fire 3 more times with your off hand, why even bother changing hands? Why not just keep firing with your main hand?
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If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
The designers have stated that you can make all your main hand attacks first then proceed to offhand or vice versa. Also, what you posted from PSRD says to choose "either weapon first" then make attacks with that weapon in order from highest to lowest. Then use what weapon you chose not to attack with first and make attacks highest to lowest.
It sounds like you plan to shoot all attacks with one hand, using both hands to reload, then drop your primary weapon, swift draw your offhand weapon and fire all of your offhand attacks while again using two hands to reload. Aside from being patently ridiculous, it is also against the rules.
Dual Wielding in this manner is ridiculous but legit per RAW, hence why people refer to it as cheese.
Neither of them mention they stack. so by RAW it should be houserule.There are no stacking rules on reduced action times. Therefore no such mention is needed and they do stack.
Find me anything anywhere that says differently and I'll be shocked.
Indeed, why is there even a listing for what Alchemical Cartridges redue a Move Action to in reload times if they don't? No firearm reloads as a move action without Rapid Reload.
To the OP: Use Alchemical Cartridges (paper ones specifically), they'll reduce your reloading to a Move Action. Gunslingers are only even potentially broken at higher levels, anyway.
That's correct and thank you for condensing that, I knew it could be found in the book, it takes a little more examination and I couldn't think of how to word it so again thank you.
I play a gunslinger and I have had several people groan and tell me how broken they are....I must be doing something wrong cause it seems to me like it is a pretty balanced class. The damage output is offset by the cost and reloading rules or it seems to me.
I am currently a 2nd level gunslinger and to be real effective it seems I need 3 feats, point blank, precise shot and rapid reload. right now I have 2 of the 3 and I can fire every other round..since reloading a pistol is standard action...lol and i do a whole 1d8. I know it is against touch so it is easier to hit but it seems they slowed down the damage output.
I know at eleventh level I can take lightening reload and reload as a swift action. By that time I will have multiple attacks I will be able to reload one barrel a round as a swift action. So with even with the pepper box I 2 rounds of full attack before I need to reload which will take me 2 rounds to fully reload. (2 from the swift actions on the two rounds firing, 2 move actions a one swift to load 3 more rounds and then one more move action to reload) so over 8 rounds I will do ~12d8. t actually seems kind of low at 11th level. I suppose I could have multiple pepper boxes with some enhancements so it would be more.
I guess it seems balanced to me...either that or I am missing something.
Add dex to damage and deadly aim and you do a nice amount of damage hitting with all of your (many) attacks against almost any enemy in the books. I think that, unless dual wielding, gunslinger do fine againstregular enemy (archers are probably better against those): the thing is that when against higher CR monsters (relative to APL), the gunslinger pulls ahead of the other members.