Couple of questions about using familiars to deliver touch spells:
First, the easy one: when a touch spell is cast on the familiar, does the familiar hold the charge until the touch spell is deliver
Second, based on my understanding of the rules, when delivering a touch spell, since familiars seem to have a reach of 0', the familiar actually has to occupy the same space as a "small" or larger (small+) target to deliver a touch spell. This, in order to avoid an attack of opportunity, actually forces the familiar to stop in the neighboring square to small+ targets, and then, on the next round, the familiar uses a 5-foot step to touch the target. And THEN, the familiar has to spend another two rounds to withdraw from the target (ASSUMING the familiar actually delivered the touch), or I guess it could keep attacking, trying to hit for 1 measly point of damage while exposing it to imminent death. Am I understanding the rules correctly?
Commentary: Assuming I'm correct in my understanding of the rules (not a confident assumption FTR), isn't this unduly burdensome for a familiar (considering the vulnerability of familiars and the additional time it takes to deliver a touch spell, during which the master can't cast another spell)? Beyond that, it doesn't seem to make such sense for flying familiars - I mean, you would have to have supernatural reflexes to hit a bat, hawk, or owl that flew in just to touch you? As a GM, I think I would have to make some house rules in this regard, which I generally like to avoid...
How about you have your familiar Greater Invis'ed and touching away? Or anything that gives concealment like Blur?
Your familiar should be more important to you than magic items or treasure. You should take whatever means necessary to protect it.
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Remember that the familiar can be used to deliver beneficial touch spells such as buffs or healing with none of these issues.
If a player really wants their familiar to deliver attack spells, they should consider a size Small choice. They could also choose to enlarge their familiar or to use Improved Familiar to get one with DR.
Spectral hand is a strictly better option for delivering touch spells at range, as is the Reach Spell metamagic feat. I'm okay with that as familiars are already very powerful if used properly.
Improved familiars tend to be bigger or have a chance to have more reach with one of their natural weapons or the ability to go invisible easily.
If you want to use your familiar as a spell delivery mechanism, you will need to invest some resources.
At level 3, your familiar has 17-18 AC, A casting of mage armour puts it at 21-22. This is respectable, you can just take the AoO.
If you can afford some scrolls of Shield (and you can), you can push the familiar's AC into the 25-26 range. At level 3-4 that's not more than a 15% chance to be hit. Alternatively, you can use mirror image scrolls to similar effect.
Another approach is to put ranks in acrobatics and attempt to tumble through the threatened square. As I understand it, you would not take the -5 penalty for tumbling through an opponent's space until you tried to leave, and you have the withdraw action for that.
Also, there is a tactical element to it. Will an enemy waste his AoO on a familiar if that lets the rogue get into flanking? Likewise, you can wait for your allies to eat up AoOs in some situations.
Oh, just remembered, you can take the feat Evolved Familiar and choose the reach evolution. Then your familiar will have 5ft of reach and your problems go away.
when a touch spell is cast on the familiar, does the familiar hold the charge until the touch spell is deliver
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): "If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates."
If you cast the touch spell, and designate the familiar as toucher, the only difference is the familiar delivering the touch. If the charge is held, it's still the master who is holding it, and it still dissipates if the master casts another spell.
when delivering a touch spell, since familiars seem to have a reach of 0', the familiar actually has to occupy the same space as a "small" or larger (small+) target to deliver a touch spell. This, in order to avoid an attack of opportunity, actually forces the familiar to stop in the neighboring square to small+ targets, and then, on the next round, the familiar uses a 5-foot step to touch the target.
Pretty much. If a creature has 5' reach and the familiar must enter the creatures square to attack, in most cases the creature will be able to make an attack of opportunity against it.
By taking multiple rounds and 5-foot steps, you can avoid this.
To be clear, it has to enter the square, and still make a touch attack. If you're holding the charge, this will be a standard action.
or I guess it could keep attacking, trying to hit for 1 measly point of damage while exposing it to imminent death.
Depending on the familiar, it's regular attack may be dealing Minimum Damage which is one point of non-lethal damage.
isn't this unduly burdensome for a familiar (considering the vulnerability of familiars and the additional time it takes to deliver a touch spell, during which the master can't cast another spell)?
It's certainly dangerous. I've never seen a familiar used in combat. It's nice for delivering beneficial spells to allies, though.
Beyond that, it doesn't seem to make such sense for flying familiars - I mean, you would have to have supernatural reflexes to hit a bat, hawk, or owl that flew in just to touch you?
The Bat Familiar is Diminutive which gives it a +4 size bonus to AC.
Thanks for responding, guys. I mainly wanted to make sure I was understanding this correctly.
That said, this seems to be an area where the AoO rules are a bit clunky IMO. For example, do threatened squares extend to three dimensions? So if a tiny bird attacks from above, it passes through a threatened square above the creature's head and is thereby subject to an AoO? That doesn't make much sense to me - birds (and any tiny flying creature I would imagine) should be very difficult to hit in melee combat and certainly not easier to hit than say, a wolf, just because it has a reach of 0'. And shouldn't speed play a role in a creature's ability to pass through a threatened space? I mean, something travelling twice your speed should be a bit more difficult to get extra attacks against.
In the meantime, I'm going to have trouble justifying a familiar over a bonded object.
Oh well, that's my two cents.
do threatened squares extend to three dimensions?
Yeah, though most people ignore vertical squares. (I don't actually have a rules quote to back that up, but it makes sense to me)
So if a tiny bird attacks from above, it passes through a threatened square above the creature's head and is thereby subject to an AoO?
Yep. Then, so does the guy jumping down on your head, Mario-style.
That doesn't make much sense to me - birds (and any tiny flying creature I would imagine) should be very difficult to hit in melee combat and certainly not easier to hit than say, a wolf, just because it has a reach of 0'.
A tiny bird is more difficult to hit than a wolf. There is a size bonus to AC. It has nothing to do with the animal's reach.
And shouldn't speed play a role in a creature's ability to pass through a threatened space? I mean, something travelling twice your speed should be a bit more difficult to get extra attacks against.
There's a lot of real-world stuff that's not in the rules. Ambidexterity, facing, weapon speed, etc.
Familiars are great, just very risky in combat. Lots of people forget to have the familiar make checks like the rest of the party. Searching for traps? Get another roll, or have it aid another. Is the count lying about those missing girls? Maybe Flappy takes a dislike to him. There's plenty of good stuff they can do, even before you go improved familiar and have them start UMD'ing wands.
DON'T GO IMPROVED FAMILIAR! Sorry for shouting, but that's a pet peeve of mine. Everyone cops out and gets themselves an imp when the going gets tough. I say to heck with that; go get a homonculus or 2 made for that and call it a day.
In the meantime I second everything Grick said at the end; familiars are a versatile utility. Yes, their vanilla attacks are not worthwhile and you'll have to trick out or weaponize your familiar for combat, but that's not the sole reason to have a pet that eventually gets smarter than the fighter.
Plus you can have the familiar deliver more than touch spells. Give it a pouch of holding or a floating disk and now its a mobile closet for the party; a flier could drop bombs/alchemsit fire/holy water in strafing runs; at upper levels you can transmute the beast into any number of permutations.
This is not to mention that, to echo Grick's sentiments when Tabby's sitting on your shoulder it's like you have a second head for Knowledge checks, Perception, and at later levels for Linguistics and so on.
Give it a try and get creative. I'll take this over a spell-storing ring any day.
DON'T GO IMPROVED FAMILIAR! Sorry for shouting, but that's a pet peeve of mine. Everyone cops out and gets themselves an imp when the going gets tough. I say to heck with that; go get a homonculus or 2 made for that and call it a day.
So, what's so bad about an Improved Familiar?
Our group wizard regards his Lyrakien as one of the best things that ever happened to him...
... enlarge her permanently and get married in Kaer Maga!
DON'T GO IMPROVED FAMILIAR! Sorry for shouting, but that's a pet peeve of mine. Everyone cops out and gets themselves an imp when the going gets tough. I say to heck with that; go get a homonculus or 2 made for that and call it a day.So, what's so bad about an Improved Familiar?
Our group wizard regards his Lyrakien as one of the best things that ever happened to him...
I think he just does not like the fact that it is a common thing to do.
Be uncommon and win one for the underdogs. Most specifically the ACTUAL underdogs; weiner-dog familiars that, because they have 0 reach are trampled under enemy attacks.
No, to clarify my point, I'm thinking back over some of the best fiction I read as a kid; the stuff that made me WANT to play a wizard. Gandalf talked to birds, witches had black cats and ravens, Harry Potter had an owl and Gargamel had Azrael. None of them had a sentient outsider that looked like a fairy.
I guess what I'm saying is there's something, I don't know; MAGICAL about having an innocuous animal familiar. Its flavorful, honest and pure.
I should've clarified my earlier rant. YOU all do what you want with your familiars. Trade 'em in for the new model if you want. To me that seems like divorce.
For me I like the idea, the pathos and the imagery of a classic familiar. And the story I always tell is of the cartoon I saw as a kid where the wizard and his familiar cat became so close that over time the thing morphed into a puss-n-boots type and after his master died he stayed a cat-man with a brain, so he kept his master's tower. The cat honestly felt he OWED his master that, after all the kindly wizard had done for him.
I just don't see an outsider bonded to you being like that.
Anyway, like I said; my rant was based on my own opinion and you should do what you want with your familiars.
Yeah, Improved Familiar is a waste. Get Improved Initiative instead along with a standard familiar that gives you an initiative bonus.
Stacked with certain traits, class abilities, and a decent Dexterity and few will be able to beat you and your save or screw spell effects.
It starts as a touch spell so...yes I'd say. Worst case scenario use a spell to give the cat hands then give it a wand or staff of the spell you want it to hurl.
As a slightly different question about touch spells, say you cast Chill Touch enhanced with the Reach spell metamagic. Can you designate your familiar as the "toucher" in such a case? A cat with it's high dex and claw/claw/bite routine would be quite powerful...
The range has to be touch. If the feat changes the range to something other than touch then the spell no longer qualifies.
As a slightly different question about touch spells, say you cast Chill Touch enhanced with the Reach spell metamagic. Can you designate your familiar as the "toucher" in such a case? A cat with it's high dex and claw/claw/bite routine would be quite powerful...The range has to be touch. If the feat changes the range to something other than touch then the spell no longer qualifies.
Foiled again!!! Is there NO rule that the anti-familiar police can ignore?
Ok, that's another rant so I'll stop. I will say however though that if I had a dime for every time I was told what a familiar CAN'T do I'd own Paizo by now...