"I fell in a pit? I'm a rogue!" and other questions.


GM Discussion

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Liberty's Edge 5/5

Daniel Luckett wrote:
Personally, I would allow a trick to be burned for an auto-flank tactic.

Sure, in a home game, I'd be all over allowing a player to do that. But in PFS, you can't really allow stuff that isn't specifically allowed in the rules.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Andrew,

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Grand Lodge 4/5

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew,

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

But for organized play, you can't allow folks to create their own stuff. That's why there's no crafting or item creation. That's why the Ranger List of animals companions and the Paladin/Cavalier list of mounts is exactly what's listed in the class/archetype even though it also says other creatures can be taken up to GM discretion.

In PFS, you just can't create new tricks. Sure, flank with me sounds reasonable. But someone will abuse the right to create their own tricks, which is why you can't do it in PFS.

<Am I in Bizarro World? I'm arguing with Chris Mortika, and strangely enough we are on the opposite sides of the discussion where you'd figure the other would normally be.>

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.

Indeed, insomuch as if its not in the book, many GM's (myself included) won't allow said tricks.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.

Personally, I'd rather have a universal rule. Either they all auto-flank or they all need a trick to do so.

Silver Crusade 5/5

I don't think anyone here is explicitly wrong. It's kind of a fuzzy area.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Daniel Luckett wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.
Personally, I'd rather have a universal rule. Either they all auto-flank or they all need a trick to do so.

There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.

Silver Crusade 5/5

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.
Andrew Christian wrote:
Daniel Luckett wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.
Personally, I'd rather have a universal rule. Either they all auto-flank or they all need a trick to do so.
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.

I agree with that unless someone takes a "Flanker" trick. Which I would allow, and it's supported by RAW by stating they're just examples. I'm with Chris Mortika on this one.

The Exchange 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
PRD: Skills wrote:

Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

If the animal knows a trick, it is still a handle animal check DC 10 (12 if the animal is wounded, taken non-lethal damage or ability damage) to get it to do a trick it knows. Most folks who have an animal companion should be able to do this without rolling the dice, as a roll of a 1 would still get them over 12.

If the animal doesn't know a trick, you gotta push it. That would be a DC 25 (or 27).

So having an animal automatically flank and such, would require a push, as there is no trick for flanking. For attack, the animal will move to the closest square in which it can threaten the creature you've commanded it to attack. Also remember, if it doesn't have the Attack 2 trick, it can only attack other animals and humanoids.

Bolding is mine.

where did you get this Andrew? I recall no such wording in the attack command.
Attack Command Text:

Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Daniel Luckett wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Daniel Luckett wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.
Personally, I'd rather have a universal rule. Either they all auto-flank or they all need a trick to do so.
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.
I agree with that unless someone takes a "Flanker" trick. Which I would allow, and it's supported by RAW by stating they're just examples. I'm with Chris Mortika on this one.

Ok, I flagged this as a FAQ candidate, because I just don't see how in an organized play campaign you can create your own abilities.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Be simple enough to add additional "accepted" tricks to the normal list. Maybe open up a discussion specifically on "tricks" you'd like your animal to do that aren't explicitely listed.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.

Respectfully disagree. For a pack hunter, flanking and even "aid another" is inherent in attacking. You don't see trained animals doing that in real life, because usually they're trained to attack independently (i.e., in a K-9 police unit the handler doesn't close to melee range until the dog has brought the target down). I'd be willing to debate the issue with dogs, as they are so domesticated that they've lost a lot of their predatory instincts, but not so wolves.

The Exchange 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
Daniel Luckett wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.
Personally, I'd rather have a universal rule. Either they all auto-flank or they all need a trick to do so.
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.

I do not beleave this is true. I think the animal will follow training. Whatever that training is. If he's trained to Perform, I would expect the player to tell me what that Perform does. If he is trained to attack, I would expect the player to tell me what that is. And to have it remain the same. If his AC flanks, but he DOESN'T want it to - that would (maybe) be a Push.

I'm guessing we are going to get a lot of YMMV on this topic. So I'll just avoid running ACs ....

Liberty's Edge 5/5

nosig wrote:


Bolding is mine.
where did you get this Andrew? I recall no such wording in the attack command.

Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

Bolded line and the following from the first line of the Handle Animal skill.

PRD:Handle Animal wrote:
You are trained at working with animals, and can teach them tricks, get them to follow your simple commands, or even domesticate them.

Pointing at a dude and saying, "Attack" does not mean, "Go around and flank the guy."

Flanking is not a simple task. Would, as a GM in a home game, allow a player to create that trick? Sure.

But in PFS, we gotta play with the rules as written. Precedent has been set that you can't add animals companions to a list that says GM's can use discretion to add other animals to the list. Additionally, the rules say you can craft items and such. But PFS you can't. Why would anyone think you can create a new trick that isn't explicitly spelled out in the book for organized play?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.
Respectfully disagree. For a pack hunter, flanking and even "aid another" is inherent in attacking. You don't see trained animals doing that in real life, because usually they're trained to attack independently (i.e., in a K-9 police unit the handler doesn't close to melee range until the dog has brought the target down). I'd be willing to debate the issue with dogs, as they are so domesticated that they've lost a lot of their predatory instincts, but not so wolves.

As a GM, I would certainly allow for some real life knowledge to seep into animal tactics.

But if you have a bear, lion, or chimpanzee, chances are they won't be flanking unless you push them to do so.

One example of a pack hunter and allowing certain actions on a circumstantial basis does not a rule make.

The Exchange 5/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.
Respectfully disagree. For a pack hunter, flanking and even "aid another" is inherent in attacking. You don't see trained animals doing that in real life, because usually they're trained to attack independently (i.e., in a K-9 police unit the handler doesn't close to melee range until the dog has brought the target down). I'd be willing to debate the issue with dogs, as they are so domesticated that they've lost a lot of their predatory instincts, but not so wolves.

Agree with Jonathan. Depends on the animal, and the training. (my view comes from experience) I've been flanked by a dog before, IRL. The creature went to hamsting me too... Good boots and heavy jeans means it just ripped the pants legs.

The Exchange 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
nosig wrote:


Bolding is mine.
where did you get this Andrew? I recall no such wording in the attack command.

Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

Bolded line and the following from the first line of the Handle Animal skill.

PRD:Handle Animal wrote:
You are trained at working with animals, and can teach them tricks, get them to follow your simple commands, or even domesticate them.

Pointing at a dude and saying, "Attack" does not mean, "Go around and flank the guy."

Flanking is not a simple task. Would, as a GM in a home game, allow a player to create that trick? Sure.

But in PFS, we gotta play with the rules as written. Precedent has been set that you can't add animals companions to a list that says GM's can use discretion to add other animals to the list. Additionally, the rules say you can craft items and such. But PFS you can't. Why would anyone think you can create a new trick that isn't explicitly spelled out in the book for organized play?

the may is the important part. Command attack. Don't give a target. Target is optional. You MAY give a target. Even then, HOW does the animal attack? if it's in the training then

"Pointing at a dude and saying, "Attack" does mean, "Go around and flank the guy." (and not "move to the closest location and attack from there" - in this cast that would be a "push").

The Exchange 5/5

for a pack hunter, or an ambush hunter (like a lion):
"Flanking is a NATURAL task, and part of the attack". NOT flanking, holding a "battle line", or remaining in place is NOT natural, and would require training.... the kind of training we give guard dogs.

so, when you are a Judge and someone sits down at your table you have a responsibility to understand how his AC works. Ask him.
1) What's it tricks/commands?
2) How does it do these?

if the player can't answer it is a problem on his part he should fix (lack of preperation, just like a Sorcerer who doesn't know his spells).

if the judge doesn't ask... "it is a problem on his part he should fix".

But that's just my view from the peanut gallery. YMMV.

(I like to be prepared though...)

Grand Lodge 4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
One example of a pack hunter and allowing certain actions on a circumstantial basis does not a rule make.

My point wasn't, "this is the rule." My point was that the Attack trick isn't necessarily the same for every AC, and should be run with that in mind. Attack doesn't always mean flank, but it should when it logically makes sense for the animal in question.

The Exchange 5/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
One example of a pack hunter and allowing certain actions on a circumstantial basis does not a rule make.
My point wasn't, "this is the rule." My point was that the Attack trick isn't necessarily the same for every AC, and should be run with that in mind. Attack doesn't always mean flank, but it should when it logically makes sense for the animal in question.

Agreed - plus the note

"...or when that's it's training."

Grand Lodge 4/5

nosig wrote:

Agreed - plus the note

"...or when that's it's training."

That goes back to "Expect table variation." Without a campaign rule on it, you're at the mercies of your table GM. If you have a list of tricks with custom (not listed in the CRB) tricks on it, plan ahead and have a second list of standard tricks in case your GM doesn't allow those custom tricks.

The Exchange 5/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:
nosig wrote:

Agreed - plus the note

"...or when that's it's training."
That goes back to "Expect table variation." Without a campaign rule on it, you're at the mercies of your table GM. If you have a list of tricks with custom (not listed in the CRB) tricks on it, plan ahead and have a second list of standard tricks in case your GM doesn't allow those custom tricks.

Agreed... YMMV always happens, even with the standard tricks.

Judge A) "your AC 5' steps to take advantage of the Flank."
Player A) "Hay! He's supposted to PROTECT me - he's letting the Mooks past!"

Judge B) "Your AC moves to block the Orc from closing with you"
Player B) "Hay! He's supposted to FLANK with me, not get in my way!"

we just need to get this resolved before combat...

Judge C)
1) What's your AC's tricks/commands?
2) How does it do these?


Matthew Morris wrote:

Re: Traps.

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, I'm confused now -- did you let him search for traps or not while he was using Stealth? If you did let him search, then what exactly are you asking in your original post?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Cmon guys, I walk away for an hour and the thread explodes before I get back to my desk?

Lame... I miss all the fun.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.

That isn't the rule. There is no flank trick whether you teach it to your critter or whether you push it to do it. The trick doesn't exist, you can't expect people to train the animal to ir OR to push them to it.

Handle animal is used to get the animal to do something it wouldn't ordinarily do. Animals regularly can and do notice "hey! he's got his back to me..." and take advantage of any weaknesses that they can because honor and fighting fair are completely foreign concepts to them.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Andrew Christian wrote:


Flanking is not a simple task. Would, as a GM in a home game, allow a player to create that trick? Sure.

I'm not sure I'd allow it as an independent, single-round action though.

The best animals I've seen at flanking - Border Collies - don't do it on their own. The handler is in constant communication with them. The basic tricks are Go Round, Down, Come, Go Left/Right (and, eventually, Attack).

Edit: fixed quoting.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Would people like it better if we asked Mike for a short list of additional "PFS-approved" tricks? Not that he's likely to have the time, but this latest iteration of "how much does the GM get to decide about the definition of 'et cetera'?" doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.


Andrew Christian wrote:
Daniel Luckett wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:

RE: Animal Companion flanking.

I allow it by default (and even suggest it) if the AC is a pack hunter. Wolves and dogs, sure. Apes and horses? Not so much.

Chris Mortika wrote:

It's been noted upthread that the tricks presented in the Core Rulebook is explicitly a list of examples, and the the RAW allow for a character to train her animal companion in other tricks.

So allowing "flank with me" seems reasonable to me.

Anecdotally, even the game designers have indicated that rangers oftentimes use their animal companions as "flanking buddies".

Expect table variation.
Personally, I'd rather have a universal rule. Either they all auto-flank or they all need a trick to do so.
There is a universal rule. If you want your animal companion to flank, you gotta push it with a DC 25 or 27.

That's not entirely true. You can set your pet to attack and move into flank yourself after. It's better economy of action.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Lazurin Arborlon wrote:


That's not entirely true. You can set your pet to attack and move into flank yourself after. It's better economy of action.

True, but if you have a move 20 and the pet has 50 you might get all flanked up THIS round, to full attack NEXT round, rather than have to spend a couple moving into place.

I'd also suggest that if we are going to break tricks down into 'subtricks' (ie Flanking is a subtrick of attack) and that each and every single decision the pet can make now 'has to be a separate trick', then pets are going to need a lot more trick slots.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

hogarth wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Re: Traps.

** spoiler omitted **
Wait, I'm confused now -- did you let him search for traps or not while he was using Stealth? If you did let him search, then what exactly are you asking in your original post?

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse.

it went kind of like this.

PC: I'm stealthing!
Me: Ok, you stealthed into the pit, make a reflex save.
PC: Ok, made the save, I'm going to search each square.
Me: We'll keep it simple, what's your take 10?
PC: 19 for traps.
Me: Ok, the DC to find them is 15, want to just say we take 10?
PC: Sure.
(This saves us ~57 dice rolls)

(much) Later:
PC: I step on the bridge, stealthing.
Me: Ok, you set off the trap. *rolls 24 for the bull rush* Ok, you get knocked into the pit. I'll let you roll the 4d6 for damage.

The first time he specified he was searching the maze *after* he found a trap. The second part he never got to the searching.

3/5

While I generally find it stupid to say that animals cannot flank or take advantage of basic tactics. The list of standard tricks should be sufficient to extend to cover most scenarios. I'm not sure where this push about needing minutely more specific tricks to do basic things comes from.

I generally would avoid AC classes for just this reason in PFS, or make sure that I had a wand of speak with animal available, but why is this even an issue. If the player wants their AC to flank, why can't they first direct it as a free action (no pushing required)to move to the square which gives flanking and then command it again as a free action to attack (again no pushing required under any possible interpretation of the rules) in order to get the flanking bonus.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Jiggy wrote:
Would people like it better if we asked Mike for a short list of additional "PFS-approved" tricks? Not that he's likely to have the time, but this latest iteration of "how much does the GM get to decide about the definition of 'et cetera'?" doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

While I agree that such a post would curb further spiraling discussions on this subject, why would we need a list to resolve this problem?

The skill states that other tricks exist, and that the list provided is not comprehensive. No one here doubts the ability for animals to flank, only that perhaps they require further instruction to do the task. Isn't further instruction teaching your pet a trick, so why not have "flank" or "flank attack" just be a trick? The RAW allows the invention of such a trick -- where's the issue? If the pet doesn't have the trick, then push them to perform the action. As simple as that.

Dark Archive 3/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:

A while ago I wrote up a "Animal Companion Cheat Sheet" for my players, because I was seeing several reoccuring problems ranging from HP, to how Handle Animal worked, to them not having any tricks known. As for moving your dog into flanking, that's what pushing an animal is for, IMO.

Spoilering for size.
** spoiler omitted **...

great handout but you have an error on your Cheat sheet that could lead to quite a bit of misunderstanding.

WalterGM wrote:
Multiple Attacks: Some animals have more than one kind of attack. These animals have two kinds of attacks: primary natural attacks and secondary natural attacks. When making a full attack action, primary attacks are made at the AC’s normal melee bonus, and add their full Strength bonus on damage. Secondary attacks are made the AC’s melee bonus -5, and add half their Strength bonus on damage. When the animal makes one attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

That should read:

When an animal that only has a single natural attack makes an attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

Remember the 1.5x modifier is only for creatures that only get one natural attack (Wolves, Axebeaks, Crocodile, Giant Ant, etc)

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Walter Sheppard wrote:
The RAW allows the invention of such a trick -- where's the issue?

The issue is standardization.

If my PC gets into a weird situation with some candles, a spiked chain, spider climb and a bugbear sorceress; the GM is going to have to adjudicate something on the fly in order to resolve the situation as fairly and reasonably as possible. But the thing is, once I walk away from that table a few hours later, that decision doesn't follow me, nor do I expect it to. I would never try to hold a different GM to the first GM's ruling if I somehow got into that same type of situation again.

But if my GM says I can spend a trick slot to teach my AniComp the "flank" trick? That trick damn well better work next month when I sit at a different table. If I have a GM who says "that trick doesn't exist; it's a Push regardless" or one who says "that's part of Attack; no trick needed", then I've wasted a limited character resource.
(I'm sure you can see the similar issues that arise if I meet the same GMs in a different order, especially if I want more tricks than I can train, and have needed to prioritize them.)

Never ever leave behind something on a character sheet/chronicle sheet that you couldn't reasonably presume would be honored by most/all other GMs around the world.

Dark Archive 4/5

I would also like a standardized list of pet tricks. That, or the ability to make up tricks that are "reasonable", although that's guaranteed to provoke table variation.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Would people like it better if we asked Mike for a short list of additional "PFS-approved" tricks? Not that he's likely to have the time, but this latest iteration of "how much does the GM get to decide about the definition of 'et cetera'?" doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

While I agree that such a post would curb further spiraling discussions on this subject, why would we need a list to resolve this problem?

The skill states that other tricks exist, and that the list provided is not comprehensive. No one here doubts the ability for animals to flank, only that perhaps they require further instruction to do the task. Isn't further instruction teaching your pet a trick, so why not have "flank" or "flank attack" just be a trick? The RAW allows the invention of such a trick -- where's the issue? If the pet doesn't have the trick, then push them to perform the action. As simple as that.

The issue is creating new things in PFS. Precedent has been set that you can't do it.

Whether you agree on animals being able to be commanded to flank with the existing list of tricks or not (and Nosig and I wholly disagree here)...

You can't create new things that aren't in the book in PFS. Precedent has been set on this with no crafting rules and no GM discretionary mounts, must choose a Deity if you are a divine caster that depends on a deity, etc.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My two cents on the animal issue:

Life (generally) and PFS sessions (specifically) are too short for me to dicker with a player about whether a wolf will naturally attack from behind when using the Attack trick. As long as the animal companion isn't doing anything really crazy (e.g. nosig's example of the 2 Int animal browsing through the books on a shelf) and the player is using an appropriate trick, I'll let the details slide.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

hogarth wrote:

My two cents on the animal issue:

Life (generally) and PFS sessions (specifically) are too short for me to dicker with a player about whether a wolf will naturally attack from behind when using the Attack trick. As long as the animal companion isn't doing anything really crazy (e.g. nosig's example of the 2 Int animal browsing through the books on a shelf) and the player is using an appropriate trick, I'll let the details slide.

Some people consistently complain about how things are way too easy in PFS. And some people complain consistently about how Animal Companions are way too overpowered.

Its an easy enough solution to actually go by the rules as written, and adjudicate how animals act in combat based on common sense and rules.

If the AC is a wolf, I'd probably let it flank. If it is a boar, most likely not without a push.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


That should read:
When an animal that only has a single natural attack makes an attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

Remember the 1.5x modifier is only for creatures that only get one natural attack (Wolves, Axebeaks, Crocodile, Giant Ant, etc)

Thanks for the catch!

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Andrew Christian wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Would people like it better if we asked Mike for a short list of additional "PFS-approved" tricks? Not that he's likely to have the time, but this latest iteration of "how much does the GM get to decide about the definition of 'et cetera'?" doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

While I agree that such a post would curb further spiraling discussions on this subject, why would we need a list to resolve this problem?

The skill states that other tricks exist, and that the list provided is not comprehensive. No one here doubts the ability for animals to flank, only that perhaps they require further instruction to do the task. Isn't further instruction teaching your pet a trick, so why not have "flank" or "flank attack" just be a trick? The RAW allows the invention of such a trick -- where's the issue? If the pet doesn't have the trick, then push them to perform the action. As simple as that.

The issue is creating new things in PFS. Precedent has been set that you can't do it.

Whether you agree on animals being able to be commanded to flank with the existing list of tricks or not (and Nosig and I wholly disagree here)...

You can't create new things that aren't in the book in PFS. Precedent has been set on this with no crafting rules and no GM discretionary mounts, must choose a Deity if you are a divine caster that depends on a deity, etc.

Hmm I suppose. I just think that this is too small to call in Mike to sort it out: "can my squirrel take a 5 foot step without me using a move action?" In the grand scheme of the fight it's a +2 to hit that probably isn't going to matter anyway.

Do we really need "the man" to hold our hand while we cross the street, because we'll run into traffic without him? IDK, maybe.


Andrew Christian wrote:

Its an easy enough solution to actually go by the rules as written, and adjudicate how animals act in combat based on common sense and rules.

If the AC is a wolf, I'd probably let it flank. If it is a boar, most likely not without a push.

That's the thing, though: the player and I probably have the same amount of "common sense" when it comes to wild boar behavioural patterns.

I.e., none.

So I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt than waste precious playing time arguing about it.

4/5 ****

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Andrew Christian wrote:


The issue is creating new things in PFS. Precedent has been set that you can't do it.

Masterwork skill items?

They aren't detailed in the book, yet we allow people to make them.

The extra animal tricks seem to be in the same boat to me.

I like the idea of having tricks like flank because they actually help remove table variation by using an existing mechanic to get the animal to flank instead of wondering what each gm will do.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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The obvious solution is to errata all enemy creatures to include the Supernatural ability "slay pet", which would act something like slay living but usable at long range; can only target AniComps; eidolons, etc.; and grants no save.

See? Problem solved! :D

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:

A while ago I wrote up a "Animal Companion Cheat Sheet" for my players, because I was seeing several reoccuring problems ranging from HP, to how Handle Animal worked, to them not having any tricks known. As for moving your dog into flanking, that's what pushing an animal is for, IMO.

Spoilering for size.
** spoiler omitted **...

great handout but you have an error on your Cheat sheet that could lead to quite a bit of misunderstanding.

WalterGM wrote:
Multiple Attacks: Some animals have more than one kind of attack. These animals have two kinds of attacks: primary natural attacks and secondary natural attacks. When making a full attack action, primary attacks are made at the AC’s normal melee bonus, and add their full Strength bonus on damage. Secondary attacks are made the AC’s melee bonus -5, and add half their Strength bonus on damage. When the animal makes one attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

That should read:

When an animal that only has a single natural attack makes an attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

Remember the 1.5x modifier is only for creatures that only get one natural attack (Wolves, Axebeaks, Crocodile, Giant Ant, etc)

I think there's another error in that part of the cheat-sheet, too.

PRD on Animal Companions wrote:
All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted.

So everything is generally a primary attack. Animal companions don't get a second attack from high BAB (again mentioned in the PRD), although at 9th level they do get multiattack.

5/5 5/55/55/5

ANdrew Christian wrote:
Some people consistently complain about how things are way too easy in PFS. And some people complain consistently about how Animal Companions are way too overpowered.

I think that stems from the fact that

1) animal companions come moderately optimized, especially at the very low levels. If you have a very poorly built character the animal companion may be better: Low strength monks and two weapon fighters come to mind. In Quest for perfection part 3 the invaders were running away from the druid's velociraptor and into veleros because it was safer.

2) The game seems to have been built around the premise that fights would be held while holding still. Since this is not the case in many pathfinder society scenarios, practical optimization for melee fighting requires finding convoluted ways to be effective on the move (charging lance or more commonly pouncing barbarians) . Most of the better animal companion choices can do this simply by getting pounce.

- You're not going to fix those by annoying the players with animal companions with arbitrary and unexpected rules. The rules say that additional tricks are possible. They do not say that additional tricks are required, nor does PFS allow custom ANYTHING: thats a very large gap in your logic in asserting that what you're doing is how its written. (edit- this section sounds growlier than I intend it to. Trying to think of a nicer way to get the point accross)

Dark Archive 3/5

JohnF wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:

A while ago I wrote up a "Animal Companion Cheat Sheet" for my players, because I was seeing several reoccuring problems ranging from HP, to how Handle Animal worked, to them not having any tricks known. As for moving your dog into flanking, that's what pushing an animal is for, IMO.

Spoilering for size.
** spoiler omitted **...

great handout but you have an error on your Cheat sheet that could lead to quite a bit of misunderstanding.

WalterGM wrote:
Multiple Attacks: Some animals have more than one kind of attack. These animals have two kinds of attacks: primary natural attacks and secondary natural attacks. When making a full attack action, primary attacks are made at the AC’s normal melee bonus, and add their full Strength bonus on damage. Secondary attacks are made the AC’s melee bonus -5, and add half their Strength bonus on damage. When the animal makes one attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

That should read:

When an animal that only has a single natural attack makes an attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

Remember the 1.5x modifier is only for creatures that only get one natural attack (Wolves, Axebeaks, Crocodile, Giant Ant, etc)

I think there's another error in that part of the cheat-sheet, too.

PRD on Animal Companions wrote:
All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted.
So everything is generally a primary attack. Animal companions don't get a second attack from high BAB (again mentioned in the PRD), although at 9th level they do get multiattack.

Not quite, that is in reference to some AC attacks being specifically referred to as secondary attacks which are at -5 to hit and .5x str bonus.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Thank you everyone for your help.

What I've learned.

1) If someone has an animal companion/critter with tricks, I need to know (and write down) the tricks the animal knows.

1a) Question, how many tricks does an animal companion start with?

2) I need a check for every command, but personally I don't see an issue with not asking for checks (barring damage) if they have any ranks in Handle Animal (1 rank, plus class skill bonus +4 animal companion bonus is +8. Assuming Edit Charisma is at least a 12, that's an auto succeed, even on a 1) At least until it's hurt.

3) Question: How many tricks can an animal learn in the downtime (like day job rolls)?

The Exchange 5/5

Matthew Morris wrote:

Thank you everyone for your help.

What I've learned.

1) If someone has an animal companion/critter with tricks, I need to know (and write down) the tricks the animal knows.

1a) Question, how many tricks does an animal companion start with?

2) I need a check for every command, but personally I don't see an issue with not asking for checks (barring damage) if they have any ranks in Handle Animal (1 rank, plus class skill bonus +4 animal companion bonus is +8. Assuming Wisdom is at least a 12, that's an auto succeed, even on a 1) At least until it's hurt.

3) Question: How many tricks can an animal learn in the downtime (like day job rolls)?

about #2. Handle Animal is Cha based.... so it would be 1 +3(class skill) +4(AC) + CHA (which might be a -2).

edit:
Remember that commands given outside of combat/stress can be done with Take 10. so, if the animal has the trick Defend, it can be placed on defend with a T10 check and then defends the target if it is attacked (and likely defends itself too).

5/5 5/55/55/5

Matthew Morris wrote:


1a) Question, how many tricks does an animal companion start with?

2 per point of intelligence (usually 6) +1 bonus from the druid chart.

Make sure whatever tricks you want you get attack twice, so your animal won't say "Screw you wilber" when you tell it to attack the undead. For a quick and easy animal companion, select the "Combat training" general purpose and use your extra trick to get attack.

2) I need a check for every command, but personally I don't see an issue with not asking for checks (barring damage) if they have any ranks in Handle Animal (1 rank, plus class skill bonus +4 animal companion bonus is +8. Assuming Wisdom is at least a 12, that's an auto succeed, even on a 1) At least until it's hurt.

Handle animal is based off of charisma, unfortunately.

3) Question: How many tricks can an animal learn in the downtime (like day job rolls)?

You can make 1 handle animal roll per Rank in handle animal to teach it one trick. You can make i 1 roll to teach it a general task if you have enough ranks to teach it the task.

How can I teach tricks to an animal using Handle Animal?:

You can teach any animal a trick so long as you follow the rules for Handle Animal on pages 97–98 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. A GM must observe your Handle Animal check, and must initial what tricks the animal gained in the "Conditions Gained" section of the scenario's Chronicle sheet. The first time a character with levels in druid, ranger, or any other class that grants an animal companion gains an animal companion, the animal enters play knowing its maximum number of tricks as dictated by the animal companion's Intelligence and the character's effective druid level. If the character replaces the animal companion for any reason, the new animal starts with no tricks known, save for bonus tricks granted based on the PC's effective druid level. Once per scenario, you may attempt to train the animal companion a number of times equal to the number of ranks you have in the Handle Animal skill. Each success allows you to teach the animal a single trick; a failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts allowed per scenario, and you may not attempt to teach the same trick until the next scenario. Alternatively, you may train one animal for a single purpose as long as you have enough ranks in Handle Animal to train the animal in each trick learned as part of that purpose. You may take 10 on Handle Animal checks to teach an animal companion tricks.

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