| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Trying to get a FAQ to see if these archetypes can be taken at the same time. The only argument I can see against is a technical one, and that one is debateable, but I'd like to see an official ruling one way or the other.
Unfortunately it is pretty clear: anytime two archetypes modify the same ability (in this case: summon monster I) they cannot be taken together.
With that said I could see a houserule which allows this since the changes are not incompatible. But a Master Summoner of Natures Ally would be a houserule.
- Gauss
This ability alters the normal summoner’s eidolon class feature, but is otherwise identical to that class feature.
This ability replaces the summoner’s normal eidolon ability.
This ability otherwise functions like the standard summoner’s summon monster I ability and replaces that ability.
This ability replaces the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability and shield ally.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
Quite clear that they don't work together.
As I stated in the other thread, this is my interpretation, too. I agree that, from a player perspective, it's of course unfortunate, but them's the breaks, I guess. :(
I was thinking along those lines when I saw the new archetype, but yar, doesn't work.
Besides, isn't the main perk of being a half-elf Wild Caller that your Eidolon will have more evolution points than any other eidolon? Why cut your eidolon's power in half? A Wild Caller's eidolon can't even take Skilled: Use Magic Device, among other things.
This ability alters the normal summoner’s eidolon class feature, but is otherwise identical to that class feature.
This ability replaces the summoner’s normal eidolon ability.This ability otherwise functions like the standard summoner’s summon monster I ability and replaces that ability.This ability replaces the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability and shield ally.A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.Quite clear that they don't work together.
That is, of course, the technical argument... but since the two changes are in no way incompatible nor imbalanced I'm looking for an official ruling, if only to understand the intent. I've always had a problem with technical wording ruining intent, and it happens more often than people realize.
I was thinking along those lines when I saw the new archetype, but yar, doesn't work.
Besides, isn't the main perk of being a half-elf Wild Caller that your Eidolon will have more evolution points than any other eidolon? Why cut your eidolon's power in half? A Wild Caller's eidolon can't even take Skilled: Use Magic Device, among other things.
My Master Summoner has always summoned elementals almost exclusively, his eidolon taking the form of a mute fey spirit companion who can wink in and out of existence (think full-sized Tinkerbell)... thematically the Wild caller couldn't possibly be a better fit for the character. I'm hoping to find a reason apart from a techicality why they couldn't be used together.
My guess is that the Master Summoner's diminished eidolon is at odds with the Wild Caller's enhanced eidolon. In the former archetype, the eidolon is weaker because of the summoner's connection to summoning other creatures. In the latter, the eidolon is strengthened because of the summoner's connection to the powers of its fey heritage. In this sense, the two archetypes are thematically and mechanically incompatible.
Do I think they would be awesome together? Yes. Does it sound like they would not be incompatible in your particular concept? Absolutely. But this is my best guess as to the general intent behind their excluding each other. As recommended, in the context of home games, you might be able to argue for their stacking.
Why do you think it's the intent that they stack?
It's not even a technical argument. They replace and alter the same features. Master Summoner's Summoning Master is extremely different from the Summon Monster SLA normal summoners get.
Besides, First Worlder is precisely what you want to fulfill your character concept.
My guess is that the Master Summoner's diminished eidolon is at odds with the Wild Caller's enhanced eidolon. In the former archetype, the eidolon is weaker because of the summoner's connection to summoning other creatures. In the latter, the eidolon is strengthened because of the summoner's connection to the powers of its fey heritage. In this sense, the two archetypes are thematically and mechanically incompatible.
Do I think they would be awesome together? Yes. Does it sound like they would not be incompatible in your particular concept? Absolutely. But this is my best guess as to the general intent behind their excluding each other. As recommended, in the context of home games, you might be able to argue for their stacking.
The fact that I ran a half-elf using the Summoner's favored class option never seemed incompatible with being a Master Summoner, so I can't imagine that would be a reason here.
Honestly, I don't think it was artful wording on their part to deliberately exclude the Master Summoner... I think its a new product that will experience its share of errata as all new products have, and I personally believe that this question will be one that is addressed - hence my request for a clarification.
My eidolon is just as limited as a standard Summoners - I lose many skills, all magical abilities and a host of other evolution options as well... I don't see it as an over-powered option or an inappropriate combination, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see that intent clarified in the near future.
At least, I'm hoping so.
Besides, First Worlder is precisely what you want to fulfill your character concept.
Yes... except that I don't want my HD's reduced from d10 to d6, I have no use for Gate which Wild Caller replaces, would prefer the extra evolution points to better tailor my eidolon, prefer it have darkvision to low light vision and so on. I'm not looking to downgrade my eidolon's effectiveness when there's no reason to...
So your entire argument is because you want it to?
So your entire argument is because you want it to?
*sigh*
I don't think you are going to get a more official answer than that both archetypes modify the same features, which means they do not mix. The rules are pretty straight forward on that.
So your entire argument is because you want it to?
LOL, Cheapy, Please never leave the boards.
Your posts are awesome :)