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Tonight I had a ghost use its Malevolence ability on the party barbarian, so the witch Dominate Personed the barbarian. We didn't really have a clue what would happen, so we ruled it as just opposed caster level checks at the time. Can anyone help with what RAW says would happen?
(Note that although I like the opposed caster level checks solution, this was for PFS, so we would like to get as close to RAW as possible.)
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.
Surely the ghost possessed the barbarian and as an undead is immune to dominate person?
The ghost does not control the barbarian's mind. She controls his body, so taking over his mind won't matter. His mind has already been delegated to being #2 in command.
The ghost does not control the barbarian's mind. She controls his body, so taking over his mind won't matter. His mind has already been delegated to being #2 in command.
I don't know about that... I mean, it makes sense, but if that were the case, then wouldn't the target creature roll a Fortitude save to resist being posessed instead of a Will save?
The ghost does not control the barbarian's mind. She controls his body, so taking over his mind won't matter. His mind has already been delegated to being #2 in command.I don't know about that... I mean, it makes sense, but if that were the case, then wouldn't the target creature roll a Fortitude save to resist being posessed instead of a Will save?
Most will saves target the mind, but not all. If magic jar took over the mind then it would be an enchantment spell.
It seems to me the will save is there to represent the fact that you have to overcome the person's mind to force them out of the body. When you use magic jar the person's soul is kicked out.
Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.
The ghost does not control the barbarian's mind. She controls his body, so taking over his mind won't matter. His mind has already been delegated to being #2 in command.I don't know about that... I mean, it makes sense, but if that were the case, then wouldn't the target creature roll a Fortitude save to resist being posessed instead of a Will save?
I agree with wraith. It's not control by brute force though. It's more like...changing CPUs. As in, dominate gives you control of the CPU, whilst possession changes the old CPU for a new one for the duration of the possession.
Normally, the Barb's mind is the CPU for the Barb's body. A majic jar does not dominate his mind so much as change the CPU for the body. So even if you control the old CPU, if the CPU is no longer the governing force for the body, it does you no good. However, if you had some way of controlling the new CPU (i.e. dominating or otherwise controlling the ghost), that should work.
I am going to argue that the ghost makes the save in this case, not the barbarian, so it does not target the 'old CPU'. The ghost is the one making all the saves, possibly using the barbarians dexterity and constitution modifier. The ghost is immune to dominate person so it is of no consequence.
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the ghost inside the barbarian body is not necessarily immune to dominate person.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
according to the spell the ghost does not retain it's original type and racial abilities. i would assume that it instead gains whatever racial abilities the body has and that that is what is meant by either "natural abilities" or "automatic abilities".
when the ghost puts it's soul in a body he gains that body's type, and does not retain any of it's original racial abilities. i am assuming of course that the thinking is that since a ghost is undead it is immune to mind-affecting abilities. to infer that would be to also infer that a ghost would retain its incorporeal subtype, which is clearly not true in this case.
i would say RAW that the if the ghost in this case failed it's save that it would be subject to dominate person and that there would not in fact be any need for caster level checks to control said body. i would also say that the dominate effect would end immediately upon the ghost vacating the body, because once it does so it regains the undead type and is no longer a valid target for dominate person.
"The body" keeps those abilities, not the ghost. That is important because if the body still has to take enough hp to die, but the ghost hp is never affect by the constitution score. If the body dies then the owner of the body also dies.
At no point does it say you lose anything race related. The spell only does exactly what it says it does. The ghost is inside the body so it does not matter if it is incorporeal or not since all attacks are against the host body anyway.
"The body" keeps those abilities, not the ghost. That is important because if the body still has to take enough hp to die, but the ghost hp is never affect by the constitution score. If the body dies then the owner of the body also dies.
At no point does it say you lose anything race related. The spell only does exactly what it says it does. The ghost is inside the body so it does not matter if it is incorporeal or not since all attacks are against the host body anyway.
^This.
@Hangman Henry IX: You're kind of implying the ghost is alive for the duration of the spell that it possesses a living creature. Otherwise it couldn't lose that trait, and if it was alive you'd have to recalculate all sorts of things. That really goes against RAI.
Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.
(What happens when there's no receptacle? I've always wondered about this... Is one forced out or the original just suppressed for the duration?)
Edited to make it space better.
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dominate person targets a humanoid creature
in this case the humanoid creature's mind is being replaced by a ghost mind. the spell is not targeting the ghost, it is targeting the body the ghost is in, which is a legal target from my understanding of the rules here. by taking on a body, the ghost is making itself vulnerable to things that the body is vulnerable to. i cant see how the it would matter whether the target's mind was the original or one that was magic jarred into place.
i think you are missing the point about the ghost being incorporeal. i was suggesting that if you find it to be true that a creature using magic jar to possess a body retains any of its original racial abilities and immunities then there is no reason it should not retain all of them.
as an aside, i was the person that suggested opposed caster level checks for the game in question. it was actually because i misunderstood the game state, and thought there were 2 opposed instances of dominate person in effect. i had remembered somewhere reading rules about this but i can't seem to find them.
"The body" keeps those abilities, not the ghost. That is important because if the body still has to take enough hp to die, but the ghost hp is never affect by the constitution score. If the body dies then the owner of the body also dies.
At no point does it say you lose anything race related. The spell only does exactly what it says it does. The ghost is inside the body so it does not matter if it is incorporeal or not since all attacks are against the host body anyway.
^This.
@Hangman Henry IX: You're kind of implying the ghost is alive for the duration of the spell that it possesses a living creature. Otherwise it couldn't lose that trait, and if it was alive you'd have to recalculate all sorts of things. That really goes against RAI.
Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.(What happens when there's no receptacle? I've always wondered about this... Is one forced out or the original just suppressed for the duration?)
Edited to make it space better.
The shadow demon has the same issue. The rules don't say. I think the idea is to treat it like a possession from the horror movies where the demon shares the body with the soul, but the person has no control.
That still works though because if the body takes enough hit points to die then the victim still dies, but the ghost is still around.
dominate person targets a humanoid creature
in this case the humanoid creature's mind is being replaced by a ghost mind. the spell is not targeting the ghost, it is targeting the body the ghost is in, which is a legal target from my understanding of the rules here. by taking on a body, the ghost is making itself vulnerable to things that the body is vulnerable to. i cant see how the it would matter whether the target's mind was the original or one that was magic jarred into place.
My point is that the original person is already on the party's side, but they have no control over the body. Dominating the person's mind won't really help. It is like if you convince my wife to take you to the store, but she no longer has the keys to the car. The fact that she is willing to help is a nonfactor.
as an aside, i was the person that suggested opposed caster level checks for the game in question. it was actually because i misunderstood the game state, and thought there were 2 opposed instances of dominate person in effect. i had remembered somewhere reading rules about this but i can't seem to find them.
When a person is subjected to two spells/abilities that exercise mental control, but with orders that conflict there is an opposed charisma check. It is in the magic section.
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"The body" keeps those abilities, not the ghost. That is important because if the body still has to take enough hp to die, but the ghost hp is never affect by the constitution score. If the body dies then the owner of the body also dies.
At no point does it say you lose anything race related. The spell only does exactly what it says it does. The ghost is inside the body so it does not matter if it is incorporeal or not since all attacks are against the host body anyway.
^This.
@Hangman Henry IX: You're kind of implying the ghost is alive for the duration of the spell that it possesses a living creature. Otherwise it couldn't lose that trait, and if it was alive you'd have to recalculate all sorts of things. That really goes against RAI.
i feel like it is implied that the body the ghost is in is treated as though it were the original body. if you give the body immunity to mind affecting why not treat it as undead as well? if its treated as undead can you then use the spell Control Undead on it? if you can use control undead on it does that just give you control of the body or does it give you control of the ghost inside the body? if it just gives you control of the ghost, does that mean the ghost is a separate creature from the body, and that the body is susceptible to spells that can target it?
Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.(What happens when there's no receptacle? I've always wondered about this... Is one forced out or the original just suppressed for the duration?)
Edited to make it space better.
i kinda always figured the soul was just pushed out into the space the ghost was just in. just floatin around bein useless.
i feel like it is implied that the body the ghost is in is treated as though it were the original body. if you give the body immunity to mind affecting why not treat it as undead as well? if its treated as undead can you then use the spell Control Undead on it? if you can use control undead on it does that just give you control of the body or does it give you control of the ghost inside the body? if it just gives you control of the ghost, does that mean the ghost is a separate creature from the body, and that the body is susceptible to spells that can target it?
Being inside of the host body does not change the ghost type or subtype. I would say you can use control undead on it, but I can't prove it by RAW. It gives you control of the ghost, and since the ghost controls the body you indirectly control the body also.
I think what happens depends on the actual spell. If the body is attacked physically then the body is harmed.
wouldn't this be the rule to use then?
When a person is subjected to two spells/abilities that exercise mental control, but with orders that conflict there is an opposed charisma check. It is in the magic section.
No, for reasons I mentioned upthread. The mind is not being dominated in this case. Spell like charm and dominate control your mind, and can make you act against your will. Magic jar does not give you orders to follow. You are not doing anything. The caster, or in this case the ghost actually takes your body over. He is not influencing your mind in any way.
i feel like it is implied that the body the ghost is in is treated as though it were the original body. if you give the body immunity to mind affecting why not treat it as undead as well? if its treated as undead can you then use the spell Control Undead on it? if you can use control undead on it does that just give you control of the body or does it give you control of the ghost inside the body? if it just gives you control of the ghost, does that mean the ghost is a separate creature from the body, and that the body is susceptible to spells that can target it?
I got the impression that the spell implies that the body ultimately belongs to the original inhabitant, seeing as it can die and the possesser is only ejected. The immunity to mind effecting I took to be a trait that is part of the ghost's soul, not physical 'body', or whatever incorporeal entities have, and not part of the original inhabitant's body. They don't become one entity, they're separate. They have separate HP, the ghost can just use the body like a puppet. Control Undead would only ever work on the ghost.
i kinda always figured the soul was just pushed out into the space the ghost was just in. just floatin around bein useless.
This was what I imagined but then I wondered if that means you could target it with spells, detect it, capture it, etc. That just seemed to bring up more and more questions which I assumed to be against RAI, but I wasn't sure.
The shadow demon has the same issue. The rules don't say. I think the idea is to treat it like a possession from the horror movies where the demon shares the body with the soul, but the person has no control.
That still works though because if the body takes enough hit points to die then the victim still dies, but the ghost is still around.
I guess that makes it a moot point... Ah, well. Hopefully, my party's CE sorcerer boss won't try to magic jar us.
EDIT: I much prefer the demonic possession idea, tbh.
Here is the section I was referring to. Magic jar never establishes mental control over anyone. You just take over the person's body. Mechanically that is what the spell does. In order to qualify for opposed charisma checks there must be two points of mental control.
Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
I'd assume immunity to mind spells is a mental ability the ghost retains, regardless of wether the ghost counts as a humanoid while inside the body.
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Here is the section I was referring to. Magic jar never establishes mental control over anyone. You just take over the person's body. Mechanically that is what the spell does. In order to qualify for opposed charisma checks there must be two points of mental control.
Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
yeh i found it right after you named the section. i had been looking under the enchantment school rules.
i would say that magic jar does indeed imply mental control of the creature. you have removed the subject's ability to act and are now using your mind to control it's actions. i feel that the fact that magic jar is prevented by protection from evil in the same way that dominate and other charm effects are prevented reinforces this idea.
the whole ghost malevolence ability is just kinda a mess IMO.
That is not mind control. Mind control means you are controlling the subject's mind. Booting their soul out of their body is a necromancy effect.
Your mind to do something has nothing to do with controlling someone else's mind. The game supports that with mind control type spells being specifically labeled.
Protection from evil actually proves my point. It says "possess or exercise mental control..". The "or" means that it is referencing two different things.
One form of control is mind control. The other form of control takes over your body.
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Hi all!
I was the Barbarian in question and just wanted to make an off topic comment:
Iammars is a really great GM and if you are in Philly stop by Red Cap's Corner! It's got great GMs like Iammars and great players like Hangman Henry!
You will, however, also have to put up with Barbarians who fail their will saves.
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My point is that the original person is already on the party's side, but they have no control over the body. Dominating the person's mind won't really help. It is like if you convince my wife to take you to the store, but she no longer has the keys to the car. The fact that she is willing to help is a nonfactor.
This makes a lot of sense. Thanks.