Effects related to race

[pauljathome]

What exactly does the 1/2 Elf trait Elf Blood include?

"Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race."

I presume that this means that they can take race specific feats, archetypes and spells from any of Human, Elf or 1/2 Elf. But presumably they can NOT take Elven or Human Traits.

[Furious Kender]

"Effect" isn't defined. Some say it's only for magical effects, such as bane or enemies getting favored enemy bonuses.

However, the Racial Heritage feat humans can get has the same wording, and a clarifying sentences specifying that this qualifies them for racial feats and whatnot.

[Furious Kender]

This needs an FAQ, as this question keeps coming up every month or two.

Please hit the FAQ button, so we can actually get an answer.

[pauljathome]

Furious Kender wrote:

This needs an FAQ, as this question keeps coming up every month or two.

Please hit the FAQ button, so we can actually get an answer.

With the Advanced Race Guide the issue just became a lot more important as there are now a LOT more race specific feats, spells, etc.

[FiddlersGreen]

From another point of view, it really should if the trait costs race points, because in the games I've played so far, the only effect that it's had is to make half-elves vulnerable to rangers with either race as favoured enemies, and elf/human bane arrows. That is, it costs race points, but in practice it mostly functions as a disadvantage. If it allows you to qualify for human and elf-specific feats and traits, then it actually becomes worth something.

[Cheapy]

Makes half-elves immune to ghoul paralysis.

[FiddlersGreen]

Cheapy wrote:

Makes half-elves immune to ghoul paralysis.

Immune to 1 specific ability of a CR1 monster. Well, I suppose it's *something* to make up for the drawbacks...but it doesn't sound like a net boon to me...

[Dolanar]

I've also assumed that they gain the Elven immunity to magical sleep effects as well.

[FiddlersGreen]

Dolanar wrote:

I've also assumed that they gain the Elven immunity to magical sleep effects as well.

They do, but as a seperate racial trait.

[DelayedProfanity]

I was wondering can Half-elf use some racial trats from human(and at what cost) like can an half-elf take 1 bonus feat at first lvl like humans can with "Bonus Feat"?

(btw sry for my bad engl, hope u'll understand all)

[LazarX]

DelayedProfanity wrote:

I was wondering can Half-elf use some racial trats from human(and at what cost) like can an half-elf take 1 bonus feat at first lvl like humans can with "Bonus Feat"?

(btw sry for my bad engl, hope u'll understand all)

No, building a half elf doesn't allow you to stack the human and elf racial builds.

It allows you to use items that are keyed to human and elf blood, take feats and traits that require human or elf blood, and be smote by rangers or weapons that have human or elf bane qualities.

It does not allow you to take alternate racial qualities that replace certain base human and elf traits that you don't have. (Traits that have simmilar mechanics but different names don't count)

[ikarinokami]

again as been mentioned, in alot of previous threads on this issue, some still on the front page . there is no answer. the designed team has given contradictory answers. as such it is whatever your GM says. There is no official answer.

[blackbloodtroll]

This wasn't as big an issue, until the ARG came out, and some language within the Race Builder confused the issue.

A minor rewording of the Racial Heritage feat, and some clarity within the Race Builder would clear things up.

[Sylirinight]

There is a feat for this i think

[Kazaan]

From Dictionary.com

1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.
2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence: His protest had no effect.
These two definitions are associated with magical and non-magical "status effects"; ie. being affected by spells that target specific races, vulnerability to Bane or Ranger Favored Enemy, immunity to Ghoul Paralysis, etc.

3. the state of being operative or functional; operation or execution; accomplishment or fulfillment: to bring a plan into effect.
4. a mental or emotional impression produced, as by a painting or a speech.
Not really applicable.

5. meaning or sense; purpose or intention: She disapproved of the proposal and wrote to that effect.
This definition refers to qualifying for things that wouldn't fall under the blanket of "status effect", including qualifying for feats, traits (The half-feat race-traits, not the racial-traits used to build a race), archetypes, and using racial items.

So, the argument that, "effects refers to 'status effects'" kind of falls flat on its face when you consider that the term has several definitions. Elf-Blood and Orc-Blood, furthermore, aren't even abilities in the ARG. You can't select them to give to a race you're building because they don't exist. The hybrid-blood abilities are a vestigial descriptive term used to simply explain what being Humanoid(Human, Whatever) means in the PFS. The position that there are traits that list both Orc and Half-Orc also lacks bearing when you consider that sometimes, redundancy can prevent confusion from happening in the first place. If they had listed just Orc as prerequisite and left it up to people to realize that Half-Orcs qualify for Orc prerequisites, it might generate more debate than it would solve (of course, they didn't predict, at the time, the debate it would introduce later). So that, in and of itself, isn't as clear-cut as some would propose it to be. The Core Rulebook lists Half-breeds as being both Human and Whatever for "effects related to race". This term, while very open-ended and being very open to discussion, doesn't inherently restrict meaning to "status effects". No terminology in the CRB explicitly leads to that conclusion and the only evidence that implies it is ambiguous at best. The Racial Heritage feat further clarifies that Effects related to race do indeed include things that wouldn't be considered "status effects" such as qualifying for feats and traits. The Racial Heritage FAQ further goes on to include Racial Archetypes as an "effect related to race". Lastly, the ARG explicitly states the Type(subtype) system is what is used to determine qualification for race-based prerequisites ("effects related to race"). The only spanners in the works are the FAQ on the Half-Breed core races which contradicts the RH FAQ and the FAQ for racial favored class bonuses; which say that the racial archetypes and alternate bonuses, respectively, don't qualify as "effects related to race".

If there is any indication as to why and how racial favored bonuses and racial archetypes would not be included in "effects related to race", it would be this: neither one includes the "Prerequisite: <race>" line. It's implied that they are limited to said race, but they don't have that specific line listing the race as a "prerequisite". Same goes for racial equipment from the ARG. But the RH FAQ already states that RH works for racial archetypes. So the only hitches are the Favored Bonus FAQ and the Half-Breed FAQ (both of which refer to Half-Breed restrictions and neither mention RH). It seems to me that the pro-qualification side of the debate has stronger and more direct evidence while the anti-qualification side of the debate relies far more heavily on side-cases and has far more pertinent discrepancies; probably stemming from a case of "left hand doesn't know what the right is doing" on the development team's part.

Lastly, it simply can't be rationalized that a Half-Orc, many of whom still live in an Orc tribe despite their half-breed status, has far better opportunity to learn to be a Scarred Orc Witch Doctor than a Human with Racial Heritage (Orc). Half-Orcs are viewed as physically weaker but still worth the while because of their superior mental capacity by full Orcs and those who can prove themselves can achieve fairly high rank in Orc society; often rising to be Shaman or advisers to the tribe chieftain and Orc tribes with a high-placed Half-Orc helping to guide them are described as being far more successful than those without. But a Half-Orc, according to the FAQ, can't take an Orc racial archetype because it's supposed to be "culturally restricted". In the meantime, a Human who is at least 2 generations descended from a half-orc (So at least 3 Human grandparents + 1 Orc grandparent) and has the appropriate feat can wander on into an Orc tribe and be like, "Yo, what up my Greenas? I was just chillin in da hood and wanted to score me some rad scars, dawg. Can ya hook a brotha up? *gang-sign*"

[ikarinokami]

I get more annoyed with the design team everyday i see this question. For some reason they think saying archtypes and feats are effects with regard to race in one answer and that archtypes and fearts are not effects with regard to race in another answer, is acceptable customer service.

No one has any guidance on how half-dwarfs or any half race would work. it is so obnoxious. I'm going to stop now, you shouldn't go to supermarkets when you are hungry or post on message boards when you are angry.

[Stynkk]

Archetypes and Feats are not effects, effects stem from things like spells or abilities of magic items.

From the FAQ

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13 Back to Top

For feats, they specifically have to call out half-orc, half-elf, etc. Like this:

Arcane Talent
Magic is in your blood, and at your fingertips.
Prerequisites: Cha 10; elf, half-elf, or gnome.
Benefit: Choose a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You can cast this spell three times per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level is equal to your character level. The save DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier.

[ikarinokami]

Stynkk wrote:

Archetypes and Feats are not effects, effects stem from things like spells or abilities of magic items.

From the FAQ

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13 Back to Top

For feats, they specifically have to call out half-orc, half-elf, etc. Like this:

Arcane Talent
Magic is in your blood, and at your fingertips.
Prerequisites: Cha 10; elf, half-elf, or gnome.
Benefit: Choose a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You can cast this spell three times per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level is equal to your character level. The save DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier.

So I guess you missed the previous FAQ ruling that said archtypes and feats are effects related to race- see jason bulhman answer regarding human heritage feat.

most of us know what that FAQ says, but there is another FAQ that says the opposite, not to mention that it contridicts what ARG says on race, so you can't even build a half race, because you have no idea what the heck is the rule is supposed to be. all this could have been avoided by either reading all the rules before posting an FAQ answer or at least clarifying how the new ruling interacts with old ruling, or what the ARG paragraph on subytpes mean in light of the new ruling.

[blackbloodtroll]

I still say a minor rewording of the Racial Heritage feat fixes most of the issues.

I don't even consider the Race Builder rules, as they don't even have the "Elf Blood" or "Orc Blood" traits.

[ikarinokami]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I still say a minor rewording of the Racial Heritage feat fixes most of the issues.

I don't even consider the Race Builder rules, as they don't even have the "Elf Blood" or "Orc Blood" traits.

You mean minor reworded as in rewrite the whole feat.

I'm sure I and rest of us are pleased to have purchased a $40 dollar rule book in which the rules don't count, except well they do, because all the new races in the inner sea bestiary use them

[Stynkk]

ikarinokami wrote:

So I guess you missed the previous FAQ ruling that said archtypes and feats are effects related to race- see jason bulhman answer regarding human heritage feat.

Eh, what?

Looks like the wording to me is a bit choppy but Racial Heritage looks like the exception.

[blackbloodtroll]

Stynkk wrote:

ikarinokami wrote:

So I guess you missed the previous FAQ ruling that said archtypes and feats are effects related to race- see jason bulhman answer regarding human heritage feat.

Eh, what?

Looks like the wording to me is a bit choppy but Racial Heritage looks like the exception.

I have said that often. It seems that the exception needs to be called out as an exception.

[ikarinokami]

Stynkk wrote:

ikarinokami wrote:

So I guess you missed the previous FAQ ruling that said archtypes and feats are effects related to race- see jason bulhman answer regarding human heritage feat.

Eh, what?

Looks like the wording to me is a bit choppy but Racial Heritage looks like the exception.

exception, do you guys understand what an exception means? the only thing racial heritage does is make you have effects related to race. that's not an exception, that definining differently what the "effects with regards to race means" that's not an exception. That reqires an entirely new mechanic.

There is nothing choppy about the wording. the feat only does one thing. makes make effects regarding another race apply to humans. the ruling means that archtypes are effects with regards to race.

Not mention the fact, that there is no way to actually qualify for archtypes or feats because being a member of a race is not enough to qualify for archtypes related to that race anymore. Again if you are going to over rule prior rulings, significatly modify a previous feat, create the need for a new mechanic, negate the rules in your new rule book, you NEED to state that when you issue the new ruling.

[Kazaan]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I still say a minor rewording of the Racial Heritage feat fixes most of the issues.

I don't even consider the Race Builder rules, as they don't even have the "Elf Blood" or "Orc Blood" traits.

As I've explained before, the "half-blood" traits are vestigial, descriptive abilities to put the effect of the Type(subtype) system into plain, easy to understand English. Otherwise, a Human feat or racial archetype is restricted only to the Human core race and isn't applicable to, say, a custom-built race that uses Humanoid(Human) as the racial type. If my custom race, say for the sake of example, called the Arithau, can qualify for Human racial archetypes and feats and such because they have the Humanoid(Human) type, then why can't a Half-Elf do the same because they have Humanoid(Human, Elf)? And if my Arithau don't qualify, then what's the point of having racial subtype and why are we putting fluff like status as a specific core race above mechanics?

[ikarinokami]

Kazaan wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I still say a minor rewording of the Racial Heritage feat fixes most of the issues.

I don't even consider the Race Builder rules, as they don't even have the "Elf Blood" or "Orc Blood" traits.

As I've explained before, the "half-blood" traits are vestigial, descriptive abilities to put the effect of the Type(subtype) system into plain, easy to understand English. Otherwise, a Human feat or racial archetype is restricted only to the Human core race and isn't applicable to, say, a custom-built race that uses Humanoid(Human) as the racial type. If my custom race, say for the sake of example, called the Arithau, can qualify for Human racial archetypes and feats and such because they have the Humanoid(Human) type, then why can't a Half-Elf do the same because they have Humanoid(Human, Elf)? And if my Arithau don't qualify, then what's the point of having racial subtype and why are we putting fluff like status as a specific core race above mechanics?

You are being a bit too kind, because i don't think it's even clear exaclty how any race qualifies for racial traits. because being a member of a race is not enough, the core mechanics no longer make any sense what so ever, the basic assumptions of the race builder are utterly in choas.

[blackbloodtroll]

When I first heard of the Race Builder, I was excited.

Now, I despise it's existence.

It is a mess.

It makes strange assumptions, puts some abilities as much more, or less, powerful than they actually are.
It lacks some existing abilities, and names some, but with different effects than the original.

They create confusion, and disorder.

They should be put in the realm of "optional rules", such as "Armor as DR" and other such things.

This would keep them separate, and keep them from confusing established RAW, prior to their existence.

[Kazaan]

Or, alternately, these rules were always just presumed in development (either 3.5 or PF development) and people (including some on the dev team who simply forgot or weren't on the same page) have been misinterpreting them all this time. You know, like with Vital Strike... or Freedom and Equality.