My assumption ...
Not necessarily, but mostly yes. On a natural 20, the attack always succeeds regardless of the imposed malus or bonus. * And a natural 20 is also a possible critical hit and the penalty of -20 from Bungle only applies on an attack roll or check roll**, but it can be modified by another value. For example, a strength bonus or enhancement bonus from a magical weapon and others, but especially the attack bonus. The sum of the bonus which is the value that can change the check may be sufficient to confirm the success of critical hit *** especially in cases of high values against a low value of armor class . This spell remains a severe handicap, however. ^^
*
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat — a possible critical hit (see the attack action).**
Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.***
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Bungle would still provide the -20 to the confirmation roll on the critical threat.
But if the confirmation role succeeded despite the penalty, it would still be a critical hit.
Or if the target of the bungle rolled two natural 20s in a row, they would definitely crit.
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I would think the nat crit would take away the -20 then the player just need to confirmation role. Its a great spell but not that great. But this should be address in a better way. The confirmation roll to me just means did you hit that hard. the nat 20 is aways a hit. If you roll a nat 20 you hit even if its out of your range with a bow for example.
Or if the target of the bungle rolled two natural 20s in a row, they would definitely crit.
I don't believe that's true. A natural 20 on an attack roll is an automatic hit and a critical threat. But, even a natural 20 on the confirmation roll would have to meet or exceed the target's AC to confirm the critical.
Or if the target of the bungle rolled two natural 20s in a row, they would definitely crit.I don't believe that's true. A natural 20 on an attack roll is an automatic hit and a critical threat. But, even a natural 20 on the confirmation roll would have to meet or exceed the target's AC to confirm the critical.
I've never heard that reading before, but I can see how it could be a valid reading of the rules.
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
It's a question of whether the first bolded part applies in the second bolded part's roll or not. Now I'm not sure...