Ok, I've seen this asked a few times but reading through the threads I've found has only made me more confused over it.
So what I can gather
Feats, class bonuses and any racial bonuses to said perform skill are counted towards the total for VP. Anything which adds a bonus to the skill replaced is not?
In that case does Streetwise for the Street Performer bard not stack with VP? It seems a bit awkward if it doesn't.
Also any items which give bonuses to the replaced skill do not add to the total for the check? But also masterwork tools for the perform skill do not add to the check either?
Thanks in advance for any insight on this, it's doing my head in haha
might have jumped the gun a bit, found some things
Just wondering what kinds of bonuses to the original skill would not count then I guess.
Just wondering what kinds of bonuses to the original skill would not count then I guess.
I think only the ones from tools (instruments) are barred.
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Ready for a pop quiz?
I have a bard with the following stats:
STR 13
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 07
CHA 14
I have four ranks in Perform (Oratory), and Skill Focus in it as well. I have Versatile Performance to allow me to use Perform (Oratory) instead of Diplomacy or Sense Motive.
I also have the Snake Style feat, giving me a +2 to Sense Motive and allowing me to use an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check and treat the result as my AC against a given attack. I have no ranks or other bonuses in Sense Motive.
I'm wearing a masterwork chain shirt, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1. I'm currently prone and grappled. An enemy shoots at me with a bow, and I use my immediate action for Snake Style, rolling a natural 6 on the die.
What's my AC against the attack?
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The +4 comes from his ranks in perform oratory.
So you wouldn't count his +3 class skill bonus? You count neither his CHA mod (normally used for perform) nor his WIS mod (normally used for sense motive)? You don't count Skill Focus (perform[oratory])? You don't count situational bonuses like the +4 vs ranged attacks?
You count absolutely nothing but ranks?
As I understand things, the CHA mod should be added too. But I've been known to understand things wrong.
Ready for a pop quiz?
I have a bard with the following stats:
STR 13
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 07
CHA 14I have four ranks in Perform (Oratory), and Skill Focus in it as well. I have Versatile Performance to allow me to use Perform (Oratory) instead of Diplomacy or Sense Motive.
I also have the Snake Style feat, giving me a +2 to Sense Motive and allowing me to use an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check and treat the result as my AC against a given attack. I have no ranks or other bonuses in Sense Motive.
I'm wearing a masterwork chain shirt, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1. I'm currently prone and grappled. An enemy shoots at me with a bow, and I use my immediate action for Snake Style, rolling a natural 6 on the die.
What's my AC against the attack?
Your base AC is 19. While prone, it is reduced by 4 against melee attacks. While grappled, your AC is reduced by 2 due to the Dexterity penalty. Against melee attacks, while prone and grappled, your AC is now only 13. However, prone does not penalize your AC against ranged attacks, and in fact gives you a +4 bonus, making your AC a 21 against the aforementioned bow attack.
Since you have 4 ranks in Perform (oratory) and it is a class skill, that gives you a base modifier of +7. Taking into account your Charisma and feats, this rises to a total +12 modifier.
Due to Versatile Performance, you make Sense Motive checks with a +12 modifier (just like your perform skill), or with a +14 modifier when using the Snake Style feat (since you are making a Sense Motive check using your Performance: oratory modifier, not an actual Performance check, you get all the appropriate Sense Motive modifiers as well).
If you didn't take into account appropriate modifiers for the substituted skill (Sense Motive in your case), then you'd be able to use Versatile Performance (act) to make the most outrageous lies, and not suffer the -20 penalty for an impossible lie--which obviously isn't the intent of the ability. Keep in mind, however, that same-name bonuses and bonuses from the same source don't typically stack with one another and so certain things won't double-down onto the final skill modifier.
In the end, since you rolled a 6 on your Sense Motive check, your AC is 21 against the ranged attack (the better of of 20 and 21). Better luck next time. Hope you didn't just get shot.
Well, that was pretty easy.
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It'd be easier to follow people's answers if they were in the form of two lists: one of modifiers that apply, and one of modifiers that don't.
@Ravingdork: I notice you applied a -2 due to a reduction in DEX from being grappled. How does a reduced DEX affect my AC if I'm not using my DEX for my AC?
I thought you said it was easy. ;)
It'd be easier to follow people's answers if they were in the form of two lists: one of modifiers that apply, and one of modifiers that don't.
@Ravingdork: I notice you applied a -2 due to a reduction in DEX from being grappled. How does a reduced DEX affect my AC if I'm not using my DEX for my AC?
I thought you said it was easy. ;)
When would you not be applying your Dexterity mod to your AC?
The only instance I can think of is a Lore Oracle, but that wasn't included in the above question.
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When would you not be applying your Dexterity mod to your AC?It'd be easier to follow people's answers if they were in the form of two lists: one of modifiers that apply, and one of modifiers that don't.
@Ravingdork: I notice you applied a -2 due to a reduction in DEX from being grappled. How does a reduced DEX affect my AC if I'm not using my DEX for my AC?
I thought you said it was easy. ;)
When you're making a Sense Motive check and treating the result as your AC.
When you're making a Sense Motive check and treating the result as your AC.When would you not be applying your Dexterity mod to your AC?It'd be easier to follow people's answers if they were in the form of two lists: one of modifiers that apply, and one of modifiers that don't.
@Ravingdork: I notice you applied a -2 due to a reduction in DEX from being grappled. How does a reduced DEX affect my AC if I'm not using my DEX for my AC?
I thought you said it was easy. ;)
Your AC is still as I stated above (21). You just replace it with your Sense Motive check result.
I was not wrong.
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Maybe not wrong, but rather silly to list in great detail the calculations to arrive at a value that's apparently not being used. I asked what my AC would be against the attack for which I used Snake Style's immediate action. That would be the Sense Motive check result plus whatever modifiers would apply on top of that.
So why did you mention modifiers and what they added up to if what they added up to wasn't the answer to the question?
Huh? I covered everything.
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I must have missed something. What's my final after-everything's-accounted-for AC against the specified ranged attack for which I used Snake Style, and how do you arrive at that total? I don't recall you answering that. If you did, I must have missed it among the explanation of how you calculated my ordinary AC which you then tossed out the window in order to "not be wrong".
So to reiterate:
I have a bard with the following stats:
STR 13
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 07
CHA 14
I have four ranks in Perform (Oratory), and Skill Focus in it as well. I have Versatile Performance to allow me to use Perform (Oratory) instead of Diplomacy or Sense Motive.
I also have the Snake Style feat, giving me a +2 to Sense Motive and allowing me to use an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check and treat the result as my AC against a given attack. I have no ranks or other bonuses in Sense Motive.
I'm wearing a masterwork chain shirt, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1. I'm currently prone and grappled. An enemy shoots at me with a bow, and I use my immediate action for Snake Style, rolling a natural 6 on the die.
What's my AC against that attack?
EDIT: Okay, went back and re-read, determined not to get sidetracked this time. Got your answer, but I'd still like a more detailed analysis, including on why certain things don't get applied (especially the bonus versus ranged attacks for being prone). If you wouldn't mind. :)
I must have missed something. What's my final after-everything's-accounted-for AC against the specified ranged attack for which I used Snake Style, and how do you arrive at that total? I don't recall you answering that. If you did, I must have missed it among the explanation of how you calculated my ordinary AC which you then tossed out the window in order to "not be wrong".
So to reiterate:
I have a bard with the following stats:STR 13
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 07
CHA 14I have four ranks in Perform (Oratory), and Skill Focus in it as well. I have Versatile Performance to allow me to use Perform (Oratory) instead of Diplomacy or Sense Motive.
I also have the Snake Style feat, giving me a +2 to Sense Motive and allowing me to use an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check and treat the result as my AC against a given attack. I have no ranks or other bonuses in Sense Motive.
I'm wearing a masterwork chain shirt, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1. I'm currently prone and grappled. An enemy shoots at me with a bow, and I use my immediate action for Snake Style, rolling a natural 6 on the die.
What's my AC against that attack?
Assuming you didn't change any of the numbers from the previous example, it's 21. Your final Sense Motive check result was 20, so you use the higher of your normal AC and your skill check. Perhaps my above post was too wordy, as I said that and you seem to have missed it.
EDIT: Okay, went back and re-read, determined not to get sidetracked this time. Got your answer, but I'd still like a more detailed analysis, including on why certain things don't get applied (especially the bonus versus ranged attacks for being prone). If you wouldn't mind. :)
They don't get applied because Snake Style makes it clear that you replace your AC with the Sense Motive check result, not your base AC, but everything that goes with it.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure about that.
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Here's the thing:
Suppose you have two guys with equal Sense Motive bonuses and Snake Style. They both get attacked.
The first guy was taking total defense (with 3 ranks in Acro, giving him +6 to AC), has 5 points of natural armor, has a Ring of Protection +5, has a shield spell giving him +4 even if he's unconscious, he's behind cover for another +4, and has an item granting him a +3 luck bonus to AC.
The second guy recently charged (taking a -2 to AC), has a DEX of 2 due to bestow curse or some such thing, is affected by a witch's Evil Eye hex for a -2 AC, and maybe has some kind of cursed ring giving him another -10 to AC.
So when they both use Snake Style against an attack, which modifiers apply, and which don't? They both have modifiers based on things they're doing (total defense, charging). If you take away the first guy's total defense bonus, then the charging guy also gets a free ticket out of the penalty for charging.
They also both have a bunch of stuff that's independent of anything they do: it would apply even if they were flat-footed (or even helpless, if we're talking about ranged attacks rather than CdG). It may seem silly to let the first guy keep all those bonuses on top of his Sense Motive result, but if you take them away, then again you're letting the second guy bypass a LOT of penalties.
So do they keep those modifiers (for good or ill) or not?
This is ultimately what I want to learn. Do you keep or lose situational modifiers to AC when you use Snake Style?
That's a good question, one which I'm afraid I don't have a clear answer to.
I do believe however, that simple solutions are best, therefore I opt for the all or nothing approach.
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Personally, I favor the "anything that's independent of your person still applies" approach. That way the prone condition still exists, the Snake Style guy doesn't jump out from behind cover once per round, magical force fields don't suddenly stop functioning, etc. I would deny the total defense bonus because it relies on you doing something other than employing Snake Style (that is, dodging attacks in the traditional manner), and I would also leave you unaffected by DEX penalties for the same reason.
It requires judgment calls, but it also neither punishes attempts at being defensive nor offers a free escape from hindrances that should not be easily bypassed.
That sounds, sound to me.