Monks can get pretty good defenses, so that's not the problem. The real killer is always going to be getting a monk that's strong defensively without sacrificing too much offensive capability in the process.
Something like a Guided weapon/Amulet can do a lot to offset the problems monk run into with a lack of offensive power, and cuts down a bit on the MAD that's always been the bane of monks.
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I'll play a dwarven monk/tank :) (1 level of fighter to get heavy armor/shield)
charging in full plate and heavy buckler
(dragon style to charge through difficult terrain and friends)
AC 23 (level 3), no magic item :)
you can take the ...mountain monk archetype to swap out evasion and gain +1AC and thoughness too
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"When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities."
So...
Fighter dip gets you armor, you don't need your AC bonus.
You're a tank, you're not using fast movement.
Using Master of Many Styles doesn't have Flurry of Blows.
Monk of the Sacred Mountain and Master of Many Styles are 2 archtypes that can be taken together.
Since you lose your AC bonus, you can lower your WIS score a bit. Since you're wearing armor, you can lower your DEX a bit.
PS-My $0.02- This is starting to not feel like a monk build.
Have a Ninja 3/Monk 3 (Master of Many Styles/Ki Mystic), who does Snake and Crane style in the Jade Regent game I am part of. He kinda tanks (mostly thanks to our Sorcerer's extended Mage Armor), but a well made fighter would have higher AC and whatnot. His lack of flurry leaves something to be desired in regards to his damage output, but he has made himself quite useful by providing infiltration options.
I'm building a monk right now, Master of Many Styles that, at 3rd level with have +4 dodge to his AC while fighting defensively with only a -2 to hit (crane style and ranks in Acrobatics), +2 to hit/DC with Stunning fist attempts, and snake style (though I'm confused as to whether you can make the Sense Motive roll and choose whether or not to take it instead of your AC).
He's looking like what I would call a mini-tank. He can handle the job, but not all day or all at once. If he has good support (from a well-played ranger or melee druid, maybe?) he could perform admirably.
I'm playing a Monk that spends every dime on Defensive items and with a decent Dex 18 and Wis 16 has a pretty amazing AC. the good thing about defensive items is that they come in multiple flavors.. Natural armor, shield, dodge bonus...
Will be collecting Duelist at some point for the Int bonus as well (Int 14) Crane Wing is nice to negate that one attack per round while fighting defensively too..
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I am playing a Master of Many Style/Monk of the Sacred Mountain Human level 2.
Human Monk 2
Str= 16
Dex= 14
Con= 14
Int= 09
Wis= 16
Cha= 07
AC = 17 = 1(bracers)+2(Dex)+1(natural armor)+3(wisdom)
When fighting defensively it jumps up to a 20 AC which is not bad for level 2.
Traits= Bullied (for AoO) and reactionary
Feats= Crane Style, Crane Wing, Combat Reflexes, Crane Reposte, Endurance
With an AC I am pretty much 1v1 not going to get hurt considering I am going to crane wing the first hit that connects.
I get two attacks per round with better bonuses to hit than if I were to use flurry of blows (which I don't have anymore).
For future feats I plan on taking Panther style.
play style is charging in attacking with a defensive strike to activate crane style to boost up my AC and give me opportunities for a bonus attacks. then Circling opponents to provoke AoO so I can attack with my panther style then end in the same square I started in for Sacred Mountain abilities for increased AC.
I am the group tank, I play this character in a PFS setting. We had a sword and board fighter join our group. He died trying to compete with me. RIP Silly fighters.
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I've been having some luck tanking as a Flowing Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain. My AC is high enough that the DM complains he's having to put special enemies in to hit me, and my touch AC is high enough that the gun users have been cursing my name.
I don't tank through damage, though. It's more that I tank because the bad guys can't really afford to ignore me. Redirection might have limited uses per day, but with good placement, it's been the difference between losing party members and not. Often I get targetted just because they don't feel they have a choice.
Is Monk of the Sacred Mountain worth losing evasion over?
I dunno, my Monk of the Four Winds actually has the highest AC of the group.
Other players may not like my set up, but I have found myself greatly enjoying the Monk I've come up with.
Here's his stats:
Str 12
Dex 17 (+1 at 4th)
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 16 (14 + 2)
Cha 08
He's 4th level with Dodge and +2 Bracers of Armor (randomly generated) for a total AC of 19. There is a two weapon fighter in the group with the same AC but I've got a higher touch and CMD and the same CMB. He's not too bad on the offensive side either. He focuses more on Maneuvers and penalty stacking (See here*), than he does on outright damage. I've got a fighter, a fighter/rogue, and a rogue in my party, and the too rogues love my character for it.
*The new order of events is trip + sub the AoO from stand up for disarm + sub the AoO from retrieving weapon for trip = then proceed with penalty stacking.
Can you define tank? I don't see it happening in any game I've played. I see front line Melee that punish an opponent for ignoring them and a monk does great at this.
Also what level are we talking about? I don't see many characters with 30 ac in the early levels and later levels a monk doesn't have trouble hitting those numbers. Monks can have great survival while fitting the role of antiganizer very well. Also they do this with good saved in everything opposed to a fighter who is fairly weak to mind control effects.
how are you doing stats?
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By 9th level you will have wisdom +2 armor, which should be at least as good as medium armor at that point (as you should have at least an 18 wisdom by 9th level either naturally or through enhancement items) meaning you should have at least a +6 going in for more or less free that stacks with everything else in the game. It's like wearing a breast plate with no armor check penalties.
And that is touch AC too.
Take a dip in quiggong (you don't need slow fall) and take barkskin for a +4 to natural armor for 90 minutes for a ki point. Bracers of armor are more or less the same price as armor enhancement...you should be good to go on AC even if you don't pump much in dex (dex is over-rated). Plus dodge is a monk feat if you want a little more oomph.
Your hit points are d8, but then again you have limited self heal so that balances. Immune to poison, disease, with improved evasion.
Oh and you can move 30 feet faster than everyone else. Even if you are a dwarf that is 50 movement (not a bad way to go since they get con and wisdom, two things you need, and steel soul combined with your saves is an absolutely ridiculous +4 to saves against spells on top of all good saves and immunity to a good chunk of the non-magical effects...)
Big piece of advice. Boost your strength. You need to hit things, and the amulet of mighty fists is overpriced. Having 4 attacks that do 1d10 damage (more with a monk robe, which would also boost your AC) doesn't mean much if you can't hit anything. And 1d10 isn't much without strength behind it. Strength should either be your highest score or tied with wisdom. Dex and Con are the next tier, with Int and Charisma being the bottom feeders.
You've got a paladin and two rangers, so you will be the beloved flanking buddy who can get anywhere on the battlefield. And with your movement (and hopefully stealth and perception) you should be a hell of a scout.
If you tell me what you roll I can stat something up for you.
stats should be way better if you are rolling, esp if he is a layed back DM. But just in case here is a 15 point buy build.
13 str, 13 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 15 wis, 10 cha
2 points dex for human bonus
Level up 1 point dex at 4 1 point wiz at 8 leaves you next point into str.
13-16-12-10-16-10
Flowing monk archtype
Feat @1-Combat reflexes
Monk feat @1- Improved trip
Human Feat-Weapon Finesse
Feat @3-Step Up
Feat @5- Following Step
Monk bonus @6- Improved reposition
Feat @7- Greater Trip
Feat @9- Step Up and Strike
+2 monk weapon with defending 18k
+2 dex belt 4k
+2 Wis headband 4k
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor 8k
+2 Ring of Deflection 8k
AC 26 (10+ 3dex +3wis +2monk ac +2weapon, +1belt, +1headband, +2amulet, +2ring)
+4 dodge bonus for 1 round by using 1 ki point
+1 dodge bonus to AC for each enemy up to wis mod.
So spend a ki point to have 30 ac for a round, or get surrounded by 4 guys to have the same. No melee should hit you without getting over a 27. Also this guy has great saves and takes 0 damage from saving via reflex (and half if he fails).
This guy tends to not let enimies move around the battlefield without getting hit, which means they may as well try to hit him. When they try to hit him he trips/repositions them setting them up for attacks of opportunity from your friends. Also when he hits a target with an AOO himself they become flat footed, that or when they are prone makes them easy to hit.
Also the flowing monks ability to dodge a hit and make your opponent hit his flanking buddy with that hit is just amazing.
I second ciretose: If you want to 'tank', ask your GM if you can switch around Dex and Int.
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If you go with those stats and pick monk, you will have:
16 str, 15 dex, 14 con (+2 dwarf), 11 Int, 20 Wis (+ dwarf), 8 charisma (low, but you are the tank.
At 4, you can have a 16 Dex, I would put the +1 at 8th in Str
This would mean before you add any magic items at all you would have a 20 AC naked.
Your movement would be 50, so being a dwarf would be negated. If you took steel soul at 1st level you would have a +4 to all of your saves against spell like abilities, making your base saves againsts magic +10 before you add any ability modifiers or equipment.
Bracers of Armor are fairly cheap, so for 4000 you can get a +2 to AC. Or if you can get the wizard to cast mage armor on you each day, even better and cheaper.
Next, you lose slow fall and take barkskin, so for 90 minutes a day for each ki point you spend you get a +4 natural armor (in addition to the +4 you get in a given round if you want to burn a ki point).
Mage armor and Barkskin would take you to 28 AC for basically nothing.
For equipment, get the best Dex/Str belt you can afford (more AC, more able to hit and damage)
If you can talk your druid buddy into casting greater magic fang on you (or even better making it permanent...) you can save some money and a slot by not buying an amulet of mighty fists.
And a monk robe will give you another +1 to AC, while upping your unarmed damage to 2d6. You would be looking at better AC than your Dwarf with 4 attacks a round doing 2d6+strength damage. 5 attacks if you burn a Ki point.
Don't forget Crane Style as well Ciretose; that should buy another 4 AC (not to mention deflecting the first hit in every round and countering).
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Don't forget Crane Style as well Ciretose; that should buy another 4 AC (not to mention deflecting the first hit in every round and countering).
The only issue I have with Crane Style is that the monk's biggest weakness is it's ability to hit things, and this encourages you to lower your attack bonus lower.
It isn't a bad suggestion, and in fact it would make the monk a Tick-like nigh invulnerable when combined with the saves and immunities, but it doubles down on a weakness in my opinion so I wouldn't go that direction personally.
Don't forget Crane Style as well Ciretose; that should buy another 4 AC (not to mention deflecting the first hit in every round and countering).The only issue I have with Crane Style is that the monk's biggest weakness is it's ability to hit things, and this encourages you to lower your attack bonus lower.
It isn't a bad suggestion, and in fact it would make the monk a Tick-like nigh invulnerable when combined with the saves and immunities, but it doubles down on a weakness in my opinion so I wouldn't go that direction personally.
True, but it's only a -1 once you get Crane Riposte, and I think the extra attack you'll get from Riposte makes up for the penalty.
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True, but it's only a -1 once you get Crane Riposte, and I think the extra attack you'll get from Riposte makes up for the penalty.Don't forget Crane Style as well Ciretose; that should buy another 4 AC (not to mention deflecting the first hit in every round and countering).The only issue I have with Crane Style is that the monk's biggest weakness is it's ability to hit things, and this encourages you to lower your attack bonus lower.
It isn't a bad suggestion, and in fact it would make the monk a Tick-like nigh invulnerable when combined with the saves and immunities, but it doubles down on a weakness in my opinion so I wouldn't go that direction personally.
Fair point, but that is a lot of feat investment. You are not wrong, it's just different approaches.
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Fair point, but that is a lot of feat investment.Compared to what?
Compared to going with improved grapple, Trip, Mobility, spider step, etc. It's two feats you aren't using on other things. Monks get a number of bonus feats, but two feats is a significant investment at 9th level.
It is a way to go, there is nothing wrong with it, it just isn't the way I would go.
You lose slow fall by taking the Qinggong Monk Archetype. It allows you to replace some of your Monk abilities, with other abilities of your choosing. One of the more popular ones is replacing Slow Fall with the ability to cast Barkskin for the cost of 1 ki point.
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You lose slow fall by taking the Qinggong Monk Archetype. It allows you to replace some of your Monk abilities, with other abilities of your choosing. One of the more popular ones is replacing Slow Fall with the ability to cast Barkskin for the cost of 1 ki point.
What Tels said.
The key to playing a monk is to use your mobility. The monk two step is stun then flurry. Stunning fist isn't always going to work (Less than 50%) but when it does you immobilize your enemy and then next round you can flurry on them.
Also read the section on Ki points and remember they are available. Need an extra 20 feet of movement, burn a ki point. Want an extra attack, burn a ki point. Need the extra 4 AC, burn a ki point.
A monk isn't a fighter. A fighter is a tank. A monk can tank, but they are more useful as a stealth striker.
And with your saves, immunity, and stunning fist (which is a fort save) you will be the party caster slayer. Which is why I was leaning more toward the improved grapple chain than the Crane chain.
A monk isn't a fighter. A fighter is a tank. A monk can tank, but they are more useful as a stealth striker.
Really? A fighter doesn't have to be a tank any more than any other class. If I wanted to build a tank I'm much more likely to build a barbarian, paladin, or monk than a fighter.
Barbarian- highest health pool to soak the incoming damage and has DR abilities.
Paladin- using a shield to increase his ac as high as possible while still able to use smite to get the bad guy's attention. When he does get hit he just LoH himself as a free action.
Monk- Easily the highest later level ac, high saves, and 0 damage reflex saves. Many people will say that a monks strength is their good survial skills.
Figther on the other hand is clearly build with Damage in mind. Weapon specilization and weapon training are clearly suited to put out alot of constant damage.
But that is not the case any more for either class. Either class can focus on being the "tank" for the group. If they do they are not doing what the class itself does best, kill the badguys. Both classes can play the middle role just fine where they are still focused on lowering the health of the badguys and stay alive just fine.
A fighter is not more of a tank than any other class.
The problem with a 'tank' class is the tank must be able to draw attention to himself. If you have a character with an enormous AC, but very little offensive capabilities, then he fails as a tank. The tank is supposed to draw fire to himself, preventing his team-mates from being hurt. To do this, he needs to be able to hurt people, but not be hurt in the process.
Monk's have a very hard time being a Tank because they can be marginally effective on offense, if the concentrate on offense, or very effective on defense, if they concentrate on it. The Monk, however, cannot do both, with the exception of very limited circumstances.
For instance, if you maximize your defensive capabilities, you aren't likely to be hitting very hard, or very often. But you could hopefully spend a couple of feats on grapple and trip, and penalty stack people. But if there are somethings that can't be easily grappled, due to size, abilities, etc. and there are many things that simply can't be tripped. Many creatures that are hard to grapple, are also hard to trip. Creatures that are hard to grapple/trip are usually also nearly impossible to disarm as they usually use natural weapons.
PFS is a great place for Monk Tanks as the enemies encountered can tend to be on the weak side, and you're more likely to encounter humanoid opponents, meaning your grapple/trip tank is going to be very effective. But homebrews can be either far better, or far worse. In my games, I make sure to mix up the types of enemies so one person isn't super effective all of the time. I don't know how your GM is running them, but if he mainly uses one type of enemy (humanoids for example), then you could build an effective Monk tank.
I've always really liked the monk-tank idea, and contrary to the belief of some there seems to be a way to do it.
But one thing I'd recommend is not to try to be a fighter tank. A monk isn't a fighter, and if he tries to imitate he'll find he's a weak comparison. Personally, I'd focus on what the monk can do that the fighter can only dream of.
I'd say while a fighter's job as a tank is to gather people's attention, a monk can do it his own way, by using his superior movement to get in people's way first. I feel like dragon style accomplishes this nicely, allowing one to charge through difficult to terrain without issue. At later levels, dimension door improves this even more.
A monk has lower ac than a fighter at lower levels, but even so, the monk undeniably has a greater touch AC. There are things you can work on keeping at bay that a fighter would shiver in his platemail at. And his saves are also going to be quite a bit superior.
While not a big damage dealer or anything of that sort, the monk does have access to stunning fist, which can allow the monk to stall his enemies in his own way.
I forget the name of it, but there is a style feat for monks which allow them to use sense motive as AC once a round, which can get fairly incredible. If I remember correctly, another style allows a monk to gain free attack actions against those who attack in his threatened spaces.
Shuriken are a very unusual choice for a ranged attack, but arguments have been made that they can be used in a variety of ways, dealing strength damage with flurry of blows at a range right out of the box.
Essentially, I imagine a monk would fill an interesting niche as a very mobile tank, the defensive version of a skirmisher. I am not experienced enough to solidify this idea, but it seems appealing to me. I suggest seeing if someone else on this forum proves me wrong or expands on the ideas.
I wouldn't bother with armor at all.
The loss of speed is too painful.
Depending on the setup, AC will be high enough to foil most bruisers without much investment. If actual investment is made, by 10th level monks typically have the highest AC in the party.
Ciretose's example above is in the 30 AC range without a DEX build.
I'd actually build with DEX over STR. Damage won't be a primary focus considering what the rest of the OP's party looks like.
Another option could be the Maneuver Master Monk.
Get a Reach + Trip weapon (one level dip)
Combat Reflexes
Combat Patrol
With the range offered by monk speed the monk could control a HUGE area.
This may not be a tank but the monk becomes his own AoE Nerfium Bomb.
Take toughness and all other feats in dodge and you can make quite a tanky monk. Beef dex, wis then con.
I've seen one such monk parry aside a hell of a lot.
Agreed.
I'm one who hates to lose Evasion though. I've never played the Sacred Mountain archetype as a result.
In my experience, at level 10 the Monk's shortcomings start to dissipate. All of those "screw your special abilities" abilities start to really pay off.
And that's when you get Medusa's Strike, which is awesome.
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A monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities if he wears armor.
So, if you are playing an archetype that replaces flurry, and wearing armor puts your AC higher than your monk AC bonus, than all you're really losing is fast movement. Wear a mithral breastplate, take the armor expert trait, and you will not even need a feat.
Abundant step will make you mobile enough later on.