A little bit of background:
My friends and I had decided to start playing an RPG together over the internet, and we decided on Pathfinder. None of us have any previous experience with the game. I have been put in the position of DM, and I could use a little help.
The issue:
One of our players (the wizard) is arguing that if someone is stunned, then they should be helpless. The argument is based off of this line in the Core Rulebook's glossary, as the definition of helpless:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
He argues that a stunned character is completely at an opponent's mercy, with this argument:
1) The game says that helpless is among a list of debuffs, as well as anything else that would render a creature helpless.
2) Helpless is defined as unable to defend itself.
3) Being stunned drops anything held in your hands, and allows you absolutely no actions.
4) Unless you come up with a better idea, the only way someone can drop everything they are holding without control of this action, is from their muscles seizing up, and they lose grip, unable to close their fingers/hand.
5) As per the "no actions", you cannot make a free action, a free action is an action which "don't take any time at all".. (this quote from the actions part of the combat section in the book, original: Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.)
An example is speaking, or opening your hand. If you cannot open your hand, an action which could happen within he constraints of approximately 0.2 seconds or so. If you can somehow perform an action without the need for human reflex, you can do so. Such as thinking a simple though, or moving your eyes as per your own will and thought, not as per reflex. That is all you can do.
You cannot perform an action taking more than 0.2 seconds.
Until you time yourself and show you can raise your arm in defense in under 0.2 seconds, you cannot defend yourself.
-You are helpless.-
Now, my primary rebuttal is that it is not listed as one of the conditions that makes you helpless, and if it were to be considered as one then it would be listed. I also disagree with his opinion on the stunned status and the magnitude of its effects. I was wondering what more experienced players and DMs have to say on the matter, and what you think I should do. I am loath to introduce many house rules at the moment, because we have only played a few sessions and have not got the feel of how the game is supposed to work. (We tend to do a lot of character interaction, and have only actually done combat once.) Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ido believe the term actions means you cant participate in combat while stunned... free actions
your not grappled, your not bound, your not paralyzed, your not truely helpless and at the mercy to the enemyI'd say you're still able to move....
Actions are actions, the definition before your opinion on it states you cannot take actions while stunned. That means no free actions, no immediate actions, no swift actions, no move actions, no standard actions & no full round actions. Given pretty much everything you can do in game, is one of those mechanically, you aren't doing much of anything when "stunned."
@ OP if you compare stunned & helpless, you will see helpless is actually more severe than stunned. Also as Howie123 pointed out, stunned & helpless are two distinct conditions. If stunned were intended to be helpless as well, there would be some sort of lead in, a line that refered to helpless as being part of the condition too. Stunned, the condition in question, doesn't do that.
Thanks for the responses, everyone.
An event can make someone stunned. An event can make someone helpless. An event can make someone both stunned and helpless. If the event makes someone stunned, they are stunned; they are not stunned and helpless.
A point of clarification: The issue is not that stunned and helpless are the same status condition; rather, it is that, like paralyzed or unconscious, would being stunned render you helpless? My player seems to think so, using the "otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" part of the definition.
I was under the impression that this part of the phrase existed to cover things that were not status conditions.If stunned were intended to be helpless as well, there would be some sort of lead in, a line that refered to helpless as being part of the condition too. Stunned, the condition in question, doesn't do that.
This was my main point exactly. Is this the general consensus on the issue?
I'm quite certain that if stunned also made someone helpless, the entire game would be broken. I am here primarily to see if my assumption that stunning is not intended to also add helplessness is also assumed by people who have experience with the game.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also note that the Stunned condition probably wouldn't specify AC penalties (or really anything else in its description) if you were helpless, since being helpless would cover all that and more.
Another thought:
Has anyone played a game where stunning also inflicted helplessness? If so, did it work?
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If stunned made you helpless, it would say you were helpless in the condition text, like paralyzed, tied up, unconscious, etc.
Think about it, what's worse? -2 AC and no DEX bonus, or DEX 0 period? If stunned made you helpless, there'd be no point in saying the specific penalties to AC, when helpless makes them so much worse.
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Thanks for the responses, everyone.
An event can make someone stunned. An event can make someone helpless. An event can make someone both stunned and helpless. If the event makes someone stunned, they are stunned; they are not stunned and helpless.A point of clarification: The issue is not that stunned and helpless are the same status condition; rather, it is that, like paralyzed or unconscious, would being stunned render you helpless? My player seems to think so, using the "otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" part of the definition.
I was under the impression that this part of the phrase existed to cover things that were not status conditions.
I get the point. For example, the spell hold person makes someone paralyzed. Paralysis is specifically mentioned in helpless as a situation that makes helpless, but hold person doesn't say that it makes helpless. So, I guess we tend to take paralysis as including helpless. Were stunned called out as a situation that makes someone helpless, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, some would say that the fact that it isn't called out excludes it. Your player is looking at that last list element with a fairly broad perspective.
There is a continuum for these things that partly come down to a matter of play style. The biggest thing with helpless is that it allows CdG. Where a given group chooses to place itself on the continuum is a matter of play style. I would generally characterize stunned-makes-helpless as being atypical. It might be worth the conversation that stems from, "Do you want 3rd level caster bad guys setting PCs up for CdG via sound burst?"
Also as Howie123 pointed out....I would like to point out that Howie123 is my larger brother who works on Sesame Street. I applied for the job, but they were concerned kids would all start counting at 2. And that wouldn't be good.
Sorry Howie... small phone keyboard mixed with a little bit of late night posting is to blame :(
Stunned does not mean helpless. Being unable to actions does not mean you are completely immobilized and helpless. For going by RAW, you can in fact take a 5 foot step (which is labeled as no action).
So, you're stumbling, but have a little motor control.
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I like to use is this to explain the difference between Stunned and Helpless to new players:
"A monk's stunning fist is basically you being punched in the stomach. If you fail the fortitude save then you've had the wind knocked out of you or some-such (knocked upside the head, groin-shotted, sudden muscle spasm, etc.). It's the difference between needing to catch your breath/gather your wits and no longer being able to move in any way/shape/form."
So far in it gets the point across pretty well with my players and makes it easy to remember.
Another thought:
Has anyone played a game where stunning also inflicted helplessness? If so, did it work?
I haven't and my best advice is not to make stunned characters helpless.
You can perform a coup de grâce on a helpless creature, and having so many effects that can stun a creature it would be unbalancing.If characters can perform a coup de grâce on a stunned opponent nothing keeps opponents from doing it to the PCs and that could lead to some character deaths.
And a stunned character can still defend itself so it goes against the very definition of helpless.
If an effect would cause a creature to be both helpless and stunned the description would state that it works this way, as you can see in this example, where it's stated that the creature is both paralyzed and unconscious. If you check the rules for the unconscious status, you can see that it states clearly that being unconscious causes to be helpless too, so it's another proof that any kind of status that is inherently tied to another will be clearly stated on the description
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Keeping in mind this is a necro thread from five years ago, in case people need more evidence stunned isn't helpless;
You can take advantage of an enemy's debilitated state to attempt a coup de grace.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6.
Benefit: You can deliver a coup de grace to cowering or stunned targets.
Normal: You can only coup de grace helpless targets.
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It wasn't dead, just stunned for a long time.