|
Good Day Forums!
I am currently running a CoT campaign and one of my players has decided to play a Master Summoner. I am fully prepared for the large amount of creatures he is going to summon.
My question is how should I play the summons? It specifically says in the description of Summon Monster that you can give them directions if you speak their language. Most of the creatures are unintelligent and I'm betting he doesn't have any of the elemental languages. I know they won't turn and attack the summoner, but being unintelligent creatures they wouldn't have the know how to set up flanking and not change targets and avoid AoOs and the like. I know this will definitely alter the power of the class by not giving him complete control over the summons (thats the point), but I kind of want input on how others have run it.
Some creatures would know how to flank, like a wolf. The others, just run them like you would if they were against the players. Well, with the caveat that they only attack the player's enemies.
Remember that he *can* use Handle Animal on the animals that are summoned, and the summoning aligned versions (celestial, fiendish, entropic, resolute) doesn't give the creature the ability to understand the language.
And I'm sure he will start investing in the languages, once he can. They help when summoning devils, angels, elementals, etc.
|
|
Good Day Forums!
I am currently running a CoT campaign and one of my players has decided to play a Master Summoner. I am fully prepared for the large amount of creatures he is going to summon.
My question is how should I play the summons? It specifically says in the description of Summon Monster that you can give them directions if you speak their language. Most of the creatures are unintelligent and I'm betting he doesn't have any of the elemental languages. I know they won't turn and attack the summoner, but being unintelligent creatures they wouldn't have the know how to set up flanking and not change targets and avoid AoOs and the like. I know this will definitely alter the power of the class by not giving him complete control over the summons (thats the point), but I kind of want input on how others have run it.
When he summons animals (celestial or fiendish):
They will move to flank without provoking if pack animals (i.e. wolves), they will interpose (again without provoking) if possible if that's their nature, etc.
Sure they won't use high level tactics, but animals are not mindless. Run zombies and constructs as move and hit, but animals do get a bit more.
Now they will smite on their first opponent regardless if it's obvious or not that it will work or if they are the 'biggest' threat. They will also pick the closest enemy, with toss ups going to anyone actively attacking the one that summoned them.
They certainly *will* avoid AOOs if possible unless directed not to.
When he summons elementals and outsiders:
They have varying degrees of intelligence, but basically should be played like PCs to a great extent.Now if he's summoning things with - INT (say undead skeletons/zombies) then they charge to attack the nearest and if it retreats they charge to the nearest, etc.
-James
If he summons animals and they move to attack 1 person and another enemy hits them with a spell or weapon you don't think they will stop attacking 1 enemy to move to whatever is attacking them? Animal instincts are to survive so they are going to attack whatever is attacking them. They won't just stand and attack one guy because they know if they move away from him he is going to get an attack on them.
Most of the animals have an INT of 2 (thats what animals usually have), but that is hardly enough to understand and combat a Shadow for example.
Well, he can still Push the animals with handle animal. But animals with Int 1 can have up to 3 tricks, and Int 2 animals can have up to 6. Maybe just assume Int 1 have 2 tricks and Int 2 have 3?
It's mostly just an option.
|
|
Ok. I'm just trying to figure out how to run them because I let him run them last session and they were acting way too intelligent for my tastes (he ran them like PCs). Its one thing to have like 2-3 but being a Master Summoner he has like 10 of these stupid animals running around acting like PCs and its just crazy.
Creatures that normally exist in packs or hunt in pairs etc, like wolves, they apply tactics like flanking or seperate one from the herd and focus on that one.
I'd say they're friendly to the summoner and his allies and want to protect him by default. If he gets attacked they attack the attacker. Otherwise they attack what's closest to them.
If he wants them to attack another, specific target, well thats what Handle Animal is for, to direct animals that don't know speach.
If they know the attack trick (and therefore the DC is 10) or not (DC 25 for pushing) is up to you, but maybe depends on the type of animal again. But I guess it wouldn't be too unfair to say that summoned animals are combat trained and know those tricks, especially since they'll be Augmented anyway and Celestial.
If he manages somehow to get Speak with Animals it gets easier, or later when he summons stuff that actually speaks a language.
|
|
Creatures that normally exist in packs or hunt in pairs etc, like wolves, they apply tactics like flanking or seperate one from the herd and focus on that one.
I'd say they're friendly to the summoner and his allies and want to protect him by default. If he gets attacked they attack the attacker. Otherwise they attack what's closest to them.
If he wants them to attack another, specific target, well thats what Handle Animal is for, to direct animals that don't know speach.
If they know the attack trick (and therefore the DC is 10) or not (DC 25 for pushing) is up to you, but maybe depends on the type of animal again. But I guess it wouldn't be too unfair to say that summoned animals are combat trained and know those tricks, especially since they'll be Augmented anyway and Celestial.If he manages somehow to get Speak with Animals it gets easier, or later when he summons stuff that actually speaks a language.
And I am fine with the Handle Animal, but again he is summoning 10 of them and there is no way in the world I am letting him make 10 Handle Animal checks per round...if he wants to Push 1 as a standard or whatever cool so be it. I think this is mechanically how it should be handled if he wants to move and control a summoned animal. Right?
|
|
Ok. I'm just trying to figure out how to run them because I let him run them last session and they were acting way too intelligent for my tastes (he ran them like PCs). Its one thing to have like 2-3 but being a Master Summoner he has like 10 of these stupid animals running around acting like PCs and its just crazy.You should let him still run the summons but veto any action you feel is above the intelligence of the summons. If he argues tell him to spend his action using handle animal. If he doesn't have the summons do nothing for the round.
That creates animosity and slows the game down. Before we start I will lay it out clearly that this is the way it is working and if he disagrees then maybe he should just be an average summoner.
Few scattered thoughts:
- Since the summoner can control the placement of where the summons appear, he can at times set them up into flank, or near so enough to be reasonable, which takes care of the problem.
- Gnomes can use their Speak with Animals SLA to actually talk to their summons (though granted, it's extremely limited in its use).
-Once you get to level 3, this becomes less of a concern, as you can start summoning elementals with whom you can speak.
I would let some animals instinctively be able to use some tactics.
Cats don't normally hunt together, but I've seen videos of them doing the equivalent of tripping and grappling attacks. Canines are well known for flanking, tripping, and even disarming. Bull rush would be reasonable for a bull, boar, or bear. Grappling would be reasonable for a spider, scorpion, bear or ape. For flying creatures a charging flyby attack makes sense. Apes and elephants have been know to take away the items they have been hurt with (disarm).
Most things are probably smart enough to try and avoid AoO against obvious weapons.
Really stupid things like rats and centipeds I would pretty much restrict to move at the closest and attack as possible.
So simple things like having the dogs surround the closest opponent, I would let slide. If you want the cat to disarm the 3rd nearest opponent. I would make that a difficult handle animal check.
As Gignere said, you just say, "Hey, I had a chance to read up on the rules. If you can't speak with your summons it requires a handle animal check to make them do something that isn't a simple attack."
And I am fine with the Handle Animal, but again he is summoning 10 of them and there is no way in the world I am letting him make 10 Handle Animal checks per round...if he wants to Push 1 as a standard or whatever cool so be it. I think this is mechanically how it should be handled if he wants to move and control a summoned animal. Right?
Handling an animal is a move action, pushing is full round by RAW. Not to mention that beating a DC 25 for pushing in combat where you can't take 10 or so is pretty hard.
Druids can handle their AC as a free action but i don't think you want to do that for Master Summoner. You could however make a special full round action "handle all summons at once" or something.However I disagree with what someone said "if he fails the handle animal have them do nothing", they would still react to their instincts, which usually is "keep attacking what i'm attacking".
But also remember alot of animals that usually work in pacts usually have an alpha. If you handle the alpha to attack a specific target chances are most of the pack will follow.
I really wouldn't penalize the player too much. After all it's magic and those animals aren't even real animals. So unless they start using levers to throw people down hidden trapdoors and other such stuff, I'd just let it slide.
Really what was the player doing? You just said he was handling them too inteligent for your taste, but what exactly?
|
|
And I am fine with the Handle Animal, but again he is summoning 10 of them and there is no way in the world I am letting him make 10 Handle Animal checks per round...if he wants to Push 1 as a standard or whatever cool so be it. I think this is mechanically how it should be handled if he wants to move and control a summoned animal. Right?Handling an animal is a move action, pushing is full round by RAW. Not to mention that beating a DC 25 for pushing in combat where you can't take 10 or so is pretty hard.
Druids can handle their AC as a free action but i don't think you want to do that for Master Summoner. You could however make a special full round action "handle all summons at once" or something.However I disagree with what someone said "if he fails the handle animal have them do nothing", they would still react to their instincts, which usually is "keep attacking what i'm attacking".
But also remember alot of animals that usually work in pacts usually have an alpha. If you handle the alpha to attack a specific target chances are most of the pack will follow.
I really wouldn't penalize the player too much. After all it's magic and those animals aren't even real animals. So unless they start using levers to throw people down hidden trapdoors and other such stuff, I'd just let it slide.
Really what was the player doing? You just said he was handling them too inteligent for your taste, but what exactly?
He was using riding dogs and fire beetles. He made the 10 fire beetles set up a 10 ft perimeter to provide light during the battle. The riding dogs was when he summoned like 14 of em and he was having them set up flanking and block exit paths and they would set up 2-3 per enemy...it wasn't a "natural" fight if you ask me. The dogs took long paths around things to avoid AoOs when it made them double move instead of getting into closest position and attacking. Those are just a few of the examples I can think of off the top of my head.
... He was using riding dogs and fire beetles. He made the 10 fire beetles set up a 10 ft perimeter to provide light during the battle ...
I can't imagine this as an instinctive activity. Well, except that they are fire beetles. maybe lighting up the dining area is something they do. I would probably assign a medium difficult single check to get all of them to do this.
... The riding dogs was when he summoned like 14 of em and he was having them set up flanking and block exit paths and they would set up 2-3 per enemy...it wasn't a "natural" fight if you ask me. The dogs took long paths around things to avoid AoOs when it made them double move instead of getting into closest position and attacking ...
This actually doesn't seem too out of line for dogs. Dog/wolf packs actually do things like this. Dogs are pretty good at moving just far enough from people to avoid a swinging broom or a rolled up newspaper. And they are smart enough to realize that someone brandishing something at them is a threat. Packs also race to setup flanking positions where the dog in back is the one that attacks while the others box-in the prey. Unless he got really ridicuous, I would proabbly allow this one.
I would not have allowed this behavior with the more of the fire beetles though.
Just my take on it.
|
|
... He was using riding dogs and fire beetles. He made the 10 fire beetles set up a 10 ft perimeter to provide light during the battle ...I can't imagine this as an instinctive activity. Well, except that they are fire beetles. maybe lighting up the dining area is something they do. I would probably assign a medium difficult single check to get all of them to do this.
... The riding dogs was when he summoned like 14 of em and he was having them set up flanking and block exit paths and they would set up 2-3 per enemy...it wasn't a "natural" fight if you ask me. The dogs took long paths around things to avoid AoOs when it made them double move instead of getting into closest position and attacking ...This actually doesn't seem too out of line for dogs. Dog/wolf packs actually do things like this. Dogs are pretty good at moving just far enough from people to avoid a swinging broom or a rolled up newspaper. And they are smart enough to realize that someone brandishing something at them is a threat. Packs also race to setup flanking positions where the dog in back is the one that attacks while the others box-in the prey. Unless he got really ridicuous, I would proabbly allow this one.
I would not have allowed this behavior with the more of the fire beetles though.
Just my take on it.
My thing wasn't that they avoided AoOs but rather they spent a double move specifically to go around to avoid AoOs and set up flanks. If you tell an animal to attack something it is going to take the most direct path right off the bat. When more arrive it may adjust and 5 foot for flanking, but to forgo an attack to double move for flanking seems a bit out of character.
And the blocking exits was just crazy. He made them go stand in doorways away from combat...not like blocked in enemies so they couldn't flee.
Im not sure how Raw this is But.. our group seems to hae always played that the summons just 'know' who the bad guys are and move to attack them.
This means that Stupid stuff like beetles just move to attack the nearest badguy and repeat that without using any special tactics til the bad guys are all gone.
The need to push has mostly come up if the bad guys go around a corner before the summoned monster appears or if terrains tuff like Clouds go up where they cannot see.
But i think i shall review to see if we were doing it wrong.
|
|
6th level summoner. So using Summon Monster 1 he'd get a d4+1 of those animals and sadly he rolls really well. LoL.
I'm not angry, but it makes combat A)slow to a crawl and B)pretty much takes away all threat of conflict with PCs since they are a Wizard, Summoner and a Bard. Kind of defeats the purpose of playing an AP if they are going to take a backseat to summons...
|
6th level summoner. So using Summon Monster 1 he'd get a d4+1 of those animals and sadly he rolls really well. LoL.
I'm not angry, but it makes combat A)slow to a crawl and B)pretty much takes away all threat of conflict with PCs since they are a Wizard, Summoner and a Bard. Kind of defeats the purpose of playing an AP if they are going to take a backseat to summons...
Not to sound bitter, but I see nothing but spellcasters. This just screams versatility and power. Can summons benefit from a bard's performances?
Also, I'm decently sure that Summon Monster 1 is intended to give the normal dog, not the riding dog. There's a few threads on the subject, and the prd and the latest printing of the CRB are updated... but it didn't appear in the errata notes for some reason.
|
|
Yea I think it did get Errata'd.
The thing that drives me crazy is summoning a horde of monsters then casting haste on them. This trick will work for now, but they are coming to a point where it won't work so well...
Like I said though, I am not here to put down their tactics or nerf the party to the ground. I just want to make sure that things are being played on the up and up.
... My thing wasn't that they avoided AoOs but rather they spent a double move specifically to go around to avoid AoOs and set up flanks. If you tell an animal to attack something it is going to take the most direct path right off the bat. When more arrive it may adjust and 5 foot for flanking, but to forgo an attack to double move for flanking seems a bit out of character ...
That was my point. No, dogs don't know the term double move or flanking. But they don't have to know the term to do the action. For pack type hunters, especially canines, trying to bring down a big prey that isn't unusual behavior. They do surround first. That is their instinctive response. A pack will try to spread out and surround it before any of them really move in to attack.
I can't remember the sites, but their are some halfway decent vids fox and boar hunts. Foxes are too nimble for the first dog to have a decent chance of actually getting it so the pack attempts to surround it so it can't get away. No dog really wants to go head-to-head with a boar. So they surround and harrass it. then the attacks come from the ones no near the head. The others just try to not get gored.
In this case it would even seem reasonable to have the dogs facing the monster take a full defense action while ones behind make an attack.
Some hunting animals actually have quite complex instinctive tactics. Canines, trap door spiders, some snakes, some desert lizards, etc...
If a player wants to take the time to research what is reasonable for an animal and make a knowledge nature check to see if the PC would know that, I would let them set up some fairly complex tactics with animals when appropriate.
...And the blocking exits was just crazy. He made them go stand in doorways away from combat...not like blocked in enemies so they couldn't flee.
Agreed, this isn't reasonable without some sort of communication. 'Go stand in the doorway while there is a fight close by' is not normal behavior.