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I first looked over the class of rage prophet and thought it looked like fun flavor for an interesting class. A barbarian oracle that can actually make good use of barbarian charisma powers.
Then I realized that the class made no sense at all. BAB is 3/4ths unlike eldritch knight. It looks like it borrows the same advancement table as the dragon disciple without the power advancement. As is, its mechanically its better to take 2 levels of barbarian and just go full oracle than to take any rage prophet at all; The prestige class grants almost nothing for the loss of caster levels and oracle mysteries, where dragon disciple grants bloodline power advancement and faster BAB than strait sorcerer.
Even moment of clarity doesn't make much sense as a rage power prereq for it, since you can rage on and off as a free action with the lame curse. Strait oracle and two levels of barb you get the same BAB, more spells, same rage rounds. The only thing you lose is extra barb levels for determining effects of rage powers, but that's meaningless since you have to spend feats to get rage powers that actually are affected by barb levels anyways, and you can't qualify for most of those feats without more barb levels...
Whats the point of this class? As far as I can tell the only thing you get out of it is a ghost touch and a greater rage at the cost of 3 caster levels and a whole bunch of mysteries and oracle goodies.
Paizo made PrC's balanced. Thus, they are rarely worth going into if not for specific advancement or flavour.
it works better than you think.
i've seen people propose using it solely to boost their casting DCs with only 1 level of barb. (via CON to spell DC)
the only problem there is that it doesn't let you convert spells into rage rounds until 6th level.
which is partly why i prefer it barbarian-heavy and caster-lite.
(spell conversion quickly is able to out-do the rage rounds a full barbarian would have BTW)
i don't think it's balance is substantially different than dragon disciple, since you are advancing 2 classes' abilities (not just 1 bloodline) AND getting a bunch of other synergistic abilities.
i definitely agree with you about the moment of clarity pre-req, if you play in my game that pre-req is waived :-)
(certain abilities of the PrC only work when using moment of clarity, but you can choose if you want to use those, and take MoC when and if you want to)
there's quite a few rage powers that have no, or very low, barb level pre-reqs. (and can scale... or don't need to to be good at high level)
my favored build is all barbarian with 1 oracle level to qualify, and you can easily dip back into barbarian until you have 8 barbarian levels (or do that before rage prophet). 8th level is kind of a 'threshold' for rage powers, just as 12th level is, but with 8th level you can have alot of nice powers: unexpected strike gives the AoO goodness without needing Come And Get Me (12th level pre-req) and even works against 5' steps.
many of the oracle revelations don't have level pre-reqs, and scale up with level. (often giving totally new abilities, not just bigger bonuses or more usages, although those are nice also)
the scaling spirit guide is also very nice... and seems to be 'rage cycle friendly'. if you play AoO-conscious, your minorly lower BAB isn't as much as an issue for single (full BAB) attacks, and the right abilities/tactics can PREVENT the enemy from playing the full attack game: the barbarian has tons of abilities amenable to doing that. the spirit guide bonus is also useful for skills and saves... rage prophets will have very nice saves without needing Iron Will/etc.
also realize that the rage prophet mystery spells are gained IN ADDITION to your normal mystery spells. (since they are spells known gained from your base casting class, advancing spellcaster level also gains them) there's also some cool flavor abilities like divinations and the like.
besides the obvious battle mystery, i like life mystery (positive energy elemental form that ISN'T Polymorph, so you really do gain a bunch of immunities) + channel (letting you take channel smite), and the 'elemental' ones are all pretty good (the 'see thru stuff' powers are great especially if you can cast a spell to put your enemies inside that stuff).
You do get the ability at level 6 of Rage Prophet to sac spells for rage rounds, which is kind of nice. But since you're not getting any additional rounds of rage from the PrC itself it does seem like an odd way to try to cover the gap.
The main use of the class seems to me to be the stacking levels for Revelations and Rage Powers. The Weapon Mastery revelation for the Battle Mystery, for instance, nets you three feats and you can pick it up for one by taking Extra Revelation; Maneuver Mastery, also from the Battle Mystery, gives two feats and lets you use your Oracle level instead of BAB when calculating CMB. Once per Rage powers from Barbarian can become 1/round with the Lame curse, and the hit you take on the effective level serves as a balancing point for that.
For me, the main issue is that the main benefit of the class has to come from taking Extra Rage Power and Extra Revelation feats, which means you don't have much room for other feat choices and some of those are likely to be Extra Rage. For the most part though, going Barbarian12/Oracle8 gives seems to give a lot of the benefit of the PrC.
Paizo made PrC's balanced. Thus, they are rarely worth going into if not for specific advancement or flavour.
It's not balanced. Full caster, full barb, or caster with a barb dip is better than rage prophet.
Rage prophet might be better than a barb with a caster dip, but there's hardly any use for a melee taking a dip in a caster class given how low level caster abilities scale with spells.
protection from evil ;-)
I'm confused. Are you saying its worth sacrificing a feat or two and class features for a couple of level 1 spells? A casting of a level 1 spell is worth 25-50 gp a cast, a feat is 20k on an item or more and takes up a slot.
As far as I know, rage prophet spells aren't in addition to your mystery spells. You don't gain oracle mystery spells without oracle levels.
nope, protection/evil's just a 1st level spell that definitely is still relevant at high levels...
there's plenty of others as well (more so on the arcane side of things)
in my experience, dipping 1 level in a casting class is not all that un-common,
often for anciliary class abilities AND the basic casting (i.e. domains, familiar, good saves, etc)
in any case,
since rage prophet is really about using higher level spells (say 4th level+),
i'm not sure your comparison is that relevant to rage prophet, since 1st level spells are gainable via 1 level oracle dip.
if oracle mystery spells aren't spells known, then you can't cast them.
if they are, spells known gained from the base casting class (which is where you gain them from) is what rage prophet grants.
it doesn't specify about which specific class ability they must be contained within, just 'from the class'.
you would also 'progress' oracle mystery spells if you took holy vindicator PrC (for example).
ultimately, the class definitely does have alot more abilities than just 'ghost touch and a greater rage' (as you wrote in your 1st post), and anyone can discover by reading what it actually does. SO, those 'are the point' of the class, along with it's flavor and so on. 'balance' is not really the point of ANY class in PRPG.
Can't say I agree. You can't get power attack or arcane strike on an item. You can get something like evasion for 20k. For 25 gold, 50 for a potion, you can get protection from evil, so I can't see how something that's at worst 50 gold a pop worth sacrificing a few feats, +1 bab, etcetera. Yeah it can be relevant, so can mage armor, but a dip in a caster class rarely is worth it without caster levels IMHO.
I'm pretty confused about what you're suggesting with oracle mystery spells. Spells you know from oracle are allready there. They progress with caster level, sure. But you don't get more mystery spells without oracle levels so I'm not sure why you would call out that rage prophet grants you the spirit guide spells in addition to mystery spells, because it seems pretty obvious to me.
I just cant see any reason to take rage prophet over oracle, given you lose BAB and spellcaster levels. It looks like a poorly thought out PrC, and should have full BAB and caster classes with maybe a hit at level 1 to mirror EK, instead of copying dragon disciple.
Can't say I agree. You can't get power attack or arcane strike on an item. You can get something like evasion for 20k. For 25 gold, 50 for a potion, you can get protection from evil, so I can't see how something that's at worst 50 gold a pop worth sacrificing a few feats, +1 bab, etcetera.
OK. You're the only one who has brought up this comparison, I don't care one way or the other.
applying barbarian levels to your caster level is another one of those things that the PrC grants,besides the ghost touch and greater rage (and other abilities i already mentioned).
You asked the question:
Whats the point of this class? As far as I can tell the only thing you get out of it is a ghost touch and a greater rage at the cost of 3 caster levels and a whole bunch of mysteries and oracle goodies.
Maybe I can't help you with your opinion of it's balance, etc, but I've mentioned a bunch of stuff that it does that you seemed to have missed.
I'm pretty confused about what you're suggesting with oracle mystery spells. Spells you know from oracle are allready there. They progress with caster level, sure. But you don't get more mystery spells without oracle levels so I'm not sure why you would call out that rage prophet grants you the spirit guide spells in addition to mystery spells, because it seems pretty obvious to me.
It would have been trivially easy to restrict Spells Known gained to being only from the Spells Class Feature, but that wasn't done (this also applies to other PrCs like Eldritch Knight, or Holy Vindicator): just 'from the class' was used, so whether or not you believe Mystery Spells are Spells Known or not (if not, nobody can cast them), it seems clear per RAW that any actual 'Spells Known' from ANY Class Feature of the base class is advanced by Rage Prophet or similar PrCs.
Again, if Mystery Spells (gained by taking Oracle levels) aren't Spells Known then a full Oracle can't cast them per the standard rules for Spontaneous Casting... Mystery spells are 'learned' and are 'in addition to' the Spells Table, strongly suggesting they are the same type of thing (spells known). 'Learn' (re: spells known) is also used when switching out Spells Known per the Spells class feature.
again, just to re-iterate what the PrC grants, the Rage Prophet Spells Known include a bunch of spells that Oracles themselves don't usually have access to, like the Bard/Wizard spells: arcane eye, see invisibility, dream, shadow walk, spectral hand, vision.
all that stuff is clearly in line with the intended flavor for the PrC, a warrior in touch with the spirit/supernatural world, BEYOND just advancing Oracle abilities.
and since I didn't 'spell it out' before, those spirit guide bonuses DO get really really big you know.
(+10 to attack/save/skill vs. fey/outsider/undead/incorporeal, the initial +1 always applies against anything,
but as long as ONE of your enemies is fey/outsider/etc ('you are battling them') then you can use guidance with the big bonus for ANY usage, i.e. for attacks against animals, or saves vs. humanoid enemies' spells, etc)
I don't really relate to the comparison frame-work the OP is seemingly using, but it seems clear to me that a PrC like Rage Prophet with partial casting and multi-class ability synegy is going to be useful in a solo or small party scenario where all roles may not be filled in the standard way... and having 'backup' for roles is useful even in larger parties that have all of the roles filled.
Maybe I can't help you with your opinion of it's balance, etc, but I've mentioned a bunch of stuff that it does that you seemed to have missed.
Not stuff that is worth 3 caster levels, 5 rage powers, 2 revelations and 3 BAB, which is why I'm asking why they're so weak. They need either more BAB, more spellcasting levels, or bonus rage powers or bonus revelations. You end up spending all your feats on rage powers and mysteries.
It would have been trivially easy to restrict Spells Known gained to being only from the Spells Class Feature...
Look, I'm not even sure we're disagreeing here, I'm probably just confused why you brought this up at all. I'm guessing its because it was the mystery spells that spirit guide grants you that aren't on the oracle list when I was asking what's the point of rage prophet.
Say you're a 2 barb, 4 oracle with battle domain, and 4 rage prophet. You get enlarge person and fog cloud from your oracle spell list from oracle but not magic vestment because you have no oracle levels. Rage prophet you can take maybe see invisibility and spiritual weapon or something. I'm guessing we're not disagreeing and you're not saying you get magic vestment in addition to the rage prophet mystery spells.
i only brought it up in regards to the concept that the 'rage prophet mystery spells' are in addition to mystery spells progressed by the casting progression - which is obviously not very obvious to everybody :-)
a barb2/oracle4/rageprophet4 with battle domain SHOULD (automatically/for free) know magic vestment (3rd level battle mystery spell) because that is a spell known that you would have gained by taking levels in oracle. of course, rage prophet only partially progresses casting so you don't learn those mystery spells from the oracle base class as fast as a full oracle would.
the concept is that learning spells known (via casting PrC) doesn't care about what class feature you would have gained them from, it cares about whether you would have gained them by taking a level in the class (i.e. potentially from all class features. there's no reason you couldn't write up a spontaneous caster base class that separated every known spell into a uniquely named class feature... rage prophet should gain all of those per it's casting progression)
this is standard for casting PrCs in PRPG. if you progress cleric casting with a PrC (which you can do with Rage Prophet if you want, you just have to dip Oracle to gain Curse) you will automatically gain Domain spells, since those are dependent on what Cleric Spell Levels you have (the PrC doesn't have to say a word about it). Gaining Mystery Spells Known is just keeping up as a Spontaneous Caster. some spontaneous casters like bards/inquisitors don't get bonus spells, but that's because they have more class abilities to make up for it... if they don't work out as well with a casting PrC (especially partial casting progression), then that's the dice. wizards going into a PrC lose out on the free spells, but that's just money to them. for sorcerors or oracles, there really is no way to remedy a loss of spells known - which is why all the casting PrCs say you gain spells known as if taking levels in the base class (without specifying class features).
again, overall i just have to repeat my first comment here:
it's better than you think/how you've made it out to be.
it's good enough to play with, and get thru a Paizo AP with/vs. standard CR range opponents.
that, and fulfilling the desired flavor, is all you really need, not theoretical comparisons.
and again repeating :-), i definitely ditch the moment of clarity pre-req,
if you want to use it you can take it, otherwise there's ways to play without using it, it shouldn't be feat tax.
That would be surprising to me. It's unclear from RAW that you get sorcerer bloodline spells or oracle mystery spells with prestige class advancements to caster level as the bonus bloodline and mystery spells are described as class features at certain levels as opposed to tied to casting progression, especially with how the rage prophet mystery is described.
I'm sure its not as awful as playing an NPC class, but its definately not better than 2 barb/x oracle or x/oracle... or EK or dragon disciple or arcane trickster or arcane archer if we're comparing PrC's.
Better than mystic theurge I guess. But too weak. Needs full bab or it needs some bonus rage powers, probably some bonus rage rounds. The class is a feat tax with 3/4ths advancement (same as oracle already) diminished spellcasting. Two rage powers, a revalation, and rage prophet levels stack with barb levels for rage rounds per day and I could maybe see it.
yeah, i mentioned it because alot of people aren't aware of it.
The wording is very clear that everything it grants is 'as if gaining a class level',
so that you are gaining them from specific class features is not a big deal.
think of it as if you are gaining EVERYTHING 'as if gaining a class level',
but then subtracting everything that isn't: spells per day, and spells known.
a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained , except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
If Clerics are gaining their Domains Spells/Slot,
I don't see how this is unbalanced (it would be unbalanced to NOT gain them).
Domain spells are explicitly in cleric spellcasting progression. bloodline spells and mystery spells are explicitly in class features by level; RAW it calls for the spells known table but doesn't mention mystery spell progression.
I think they should get it, but its entirely unclear from the text that they get it, especially as mystery spells, bloodline spells, patron spells are class features and not spellcasting progression.
but it DOESN'T call for spells known table, or specify the 'spells' class feature.
just spells known gained 'if you gained a level in that class'. that is the RAW.
Domain spells are not gained through cleric levels. They are a class feature. The chart for the cleric assumes you don't multiclasses. Cleric spell casting and cleric class features are not always together. Outsiders that cast as clerics are an example of that.
Mystery spell progression, just like sorcerer bloodline spells use the same slots as the other spells.
For prepared caster the chart has to list the spell aviliable daily from the domain spells since the domain spells are a class feature. Specialist wizards don't have their extra spell written into their chart because once you specialize it is a part of your casting, and it is not a separate ability gained from being a wizard.
Anything not under spellcasting is "other benefits a character of that class would have gained". That is why domains which is the class feature that grants domain spells does not do anything for you. In order to get more domain spells those spell would have to be under the domain class feature.
Domains: A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.
In addition, a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level. Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action. Cleric domains are listed at the end of this class entry.
Since the domains do not advance, the spells to not advance.
but it DOESN'T call for spells known table, or specify the 'spells' class feature.
just spells known gained 'if you gained a level in that class'. that is the RAW.
Not according to the faq regarding witch patron spells. Bloodline spells and mystery spells are similar.
As for cleric domain spells:
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast
Explicitly RAW the opposite of what you're suggesting. Clerics get domain slots for cleric spellcasting progression, not cleric levels.
but it DOESN'T call for spells known table, or specify the 'spells' class feature.
just spells known gained 'if you gained a level in that class'. that is the RAW.Not according to the faq regarding witch patron spells. Bloodline spells and mystery spells are similar.
As for cleric domain spells:
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can castExplicitly RAW the opposite of what you're suggesting. Clerics get domain slots for cleric spellcasting progression, not cleric levels.
Once again that assumes you don't multiclass. Once you you go into a PrC that say does not advance domains then you get nothing else from domains.
As an example outsider with caster levels don't get domain spells. If domain spells were a cleric spellcasting ability, and not a domain ability then outsiders would get them also. Not only, that but the cleric has not changed since 3.5, and the only time a PrC advanced domain spells is when it was specifically stated.It is saying, "Each domain gives the cleric(class) access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast.
When you go into a PrC you are not advancing as a cleric as far as the class goes. You caster level for the purpose of cleric spells is advancing. That is why your domains, and therefore your bonus spells from that domain do not advance.
That is incorrect, since the table of Cleric spellcasting progression has a "+1" at every spell level.
Even if the meaning of that is explained in the text under the Domain feature, it is still part of their spellcasting as it is in the table under spellcasting. What does not advance is the domain powers.
I would have assumed that this was one of those things that was obvious. They are spells, thus you get them when you get "+1 spellcasting" from a PrC.
I just checked an old official PrC from 3.5. I am incorrect. I tend to ignore tables and only go by text if I think the two do not line agree.
That is incorrect, since the table of Cleric spellcasting progression has a "+1" at every spell level.
Even if the meaning of that is explained in the text under the Domain feature, it is still part of their spellcasting as it is in the table under spellcasting. What does not advance is the domain powers.
I would have assumed that this was one of those things that was obvious. They are spells, thus you get them when you get "+1 spellcasting" from a PrC.
My understanding from this was that, for clerics, they gain the extra spell slot (which can only accept domain spells) but, since the Domain class feature is not advanced for most cleric PrCs, they do not gain new domain spells.
Essentially, what this means, is that if your cleric takes a casting PrC at 7th level, he will have the bonus domain spells for spell levels 1, 2 and 3 but not the domain spell for spell level 4. However, he will still gain the bonus spell slot, allowing him to prepare a lower level domain spell, or a metamagicked domain spell.
Like most paizo specific Prc's and a lot of their conversions they are actually weaker(hell knight, eldritch knight, and dragon disciple are possible exceptions)than a base class. In paizo's opinion Prc's are more for flavor than the power bump they represented in 3.5, but I think they've gone way to far in most cases.
I agree that there are a number of examples where Paizo clearly erred on the side of caution in terms of prestige classes (e.g. Shackles Pirate, Pathfinder Chronicler).
In paizo's opinion Prc's are more for flavor than the power bump they represented in 3.5
"flavor tax" is an idea which needs to be extirpated from the minds of those gamers who adhere to it. One of the areas where PF has advanced the farthest in design is in archetypes making classes more modular. It puzzles me that Paizo has such a regressive opinion of PrC design, but it is probably just a lingering backlash against 3.5.
In paizo's opinion Prc's are more for flavor than the power bump they represented in 3.5"flavor tax" is an idea which needs to be extirpated from the minds of those gamers who adhere to it. One of the areas where PF has advanced the farthest in design is in archetypes making classes more modular. It puzzles me that Paizo has such a regressive opinion of PrC design, but it is probably just a lingering backlash against 3.5.
From what I can see, Paizo doesn't have a "regressive" view of PrCs, just a different one. They are releasing a huge book of PrCs for Golarion soon (if they haven't already released it; I don't play in Golarion). Their view seems to be that PrCs are setting specific and, as such, should directly reflect things related to the setting. They should be balanced against a base class such that Class X/PrC Y and just Class X of equal combined levels ought to be in a similar power range.
With all PrCs, it seems that you either sacrifice some raw power for either versatility or specificity. In a vacuum (which board builds are usually built in) these will often be seen as weaker than just the base class because there is nothing outside to determine what is effective. A PrC that is great at destroying undead, for example, will likely be viewed as weaker than just a normal character. But in an undead heavy game, that PrC might be more powerful than just a normal class. A mystic theurge might be considered weak in a normal game where higher level spells are important, but in an endurance game with lots of lower level creatures, having more spell slots than hit points might be the better route.
PrCs do, I agree, sometimes have an annoying "flavor tax" and I agree that it ought to be a concept that is removed. However, comparing setting specific PrCs (the majority of the PrCs for Pathfinder) to a generic setting is a bit comparing apples to oranges.
Are the PrCs in the core book and APG a little weaker than I'd like? Sure, but they are not prohibitively weak, especially for the niche builds they are designed for. I've used them in my games to rather good effect, sometimes simply because they are overlooked and their abilities aren't expected.
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The problem isn't their "non-optimal" nature as determined by theorycrafters in a vacuum. The problem is most PRC's require such a great degree of system mastery to make them as cool as it implies on the can so to speak.
Yes, you can make a perfectly good Mystic Theurge, but it is hard and 75% of the time it is the definition of a trap option.
There are a few exceptions to this among the "generic" PrC's. Dragon Disciple and Holy Vindicator spring to mind.
PrC's are supposed to fit a specific idea or niche. They are the epitome of specialization towards a concept for flavor.
They should work as they do. If one wants a few tweaks to a core class to fit a character concept at creation, then look to the archtypes.
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The problem isn't their "non-optimal" nature as determined by theorycrafters in a vacuum. The problem is most PRC's require such a great degree of system mastery to make them as cool as it implies on the can so to speak.
Yes, you can make a perfectly good Mystic Theurge, but it is hard and 75% of the time it is the definition of a trap option.
There are a few exceptions to this among the "generic" PrC's. Dragon Disciple and Holy Vindicator spring to mind.
Multiclassing anything is like this. If you do so without understanding how to make it work, then you are going to end up with an inferior build. This is just the way the game works. If you want simple and effective, you just play a straight class. If you want to multiclass and be effective, you need to know when and how to do it. You can't just toss around whatever classes you want at whatever levels you want and expect to have an optimized character.
PrCs are multiclassing, especially PrCs like rage prophet, eldritch knight and mystic theurge, which require multiclassing before selecting the PrC. Multiclassing is difficult to do right.
I don't really like most of the prestige classes, but some do.
But for me the Rage Prophets is one that does suck.... as pointed out in this thread.
RAGE PROPHETS THAT DON'T SUCK?
But if anyone else like the class, great. Me, I don't.
This issue has been debated in many threads, including like this one.
Multiclassing means not gettin capstone abilities and slower progression of midland abilities. People do in anyway because of flavor, the desire to play a hybrid or because there is a niche in there campaign they fell needs to be filled. A babarain orcacle will never cast as many spells as a straight oracle nor will it rage as often with as many powers and as much DR as a straight barbarian. The plus side to playing a rage prophet is that revelations that you do take scale with level (though you do not gain more), further you continue to gain spells and caster levels.
If you looking at the class purely in terms of relative power it might not measure up to a straight oracle in spell casting nor will it measure up to a straight barbarian but it is going to hit harder than a melee oracle and cast more spells than a straight barbarian. Those can be usefule things.
Multiclassing anything is like this. If you do so without understanding how to make it work, then you are going to end up with an inferior build. This is just the way the do game works. If you want simple and effective, you just play a straight class... PrCs are multiclassing, especially PrCs like rage prophet, eldritch knight and mystic theurge, which require multiclassing before selecting the PrC. Multiclassing is difficult to do right.
+1
You can imagine many PrCs, such as Dragon Disciple or Rage Prophet, built as a Base Class, and almost certainly they would be more powerful and easier to build... Inquisitor would be a good base line. On the other hand, being PrCs enables more flexibiliy: you can build a Dragon Disciple or Rage Prophet with either alot of Melee Class Levels or alot of Caster Levels, for a very different outcome - Inquisitor doesn't do that.I probably WOULD like it if Rage Prophet granted 1 or 2 Rage Powers/Revelations (your choice) that you could take as if Rage Prophet levels counted towards Barb/Oracle Level Pre-Reqs, perhaps even only 1:2 Rage Prophet Levels... i.e. +5 levels @ 10th level Rage Prophet + 7 levels of one base class = You qualify for a 12th level power by end-game/18th level. Other Powers/Revelations you gained via Feats (or dipping back in the Base Class?) would not benefit from the Class Level equivalence for Pre-Reqs (but would for scaling their effect). Maybe the 1st free Power would default to Moment of Clarity, and only if you already have MoC you could choose another Power/Revelation...?
Anyhow, I can have fun with Rage Prophet as-is... Well, I do hand-wave the MoC pre-req, so MOSTLY as-is ;-)
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@Concerro: Think of Domains as a Class Ability that auto-scales with a feature (Cleric Spell Levels) not inherently tied to Cleric Levels... Once you have the Domain ability, you gain the Domain Spells for every Spell Level you have... The other Domain ABILITIES only kick in with Cleric Levels (or other Domain-granting Classes that stack).
Note that Specialist Wizards who take PrCs DO continue to get extra Spell Slots only usable for their chosen School (while likewise continuing to suffer the penalty: 'opposing' school spells take 2 slots to memorize) - Those rules apply to every Wizard Spell Level they can cast, independent of Wizard Class Levels. Of course, they don't get other School Specialist ABILITIES tied to Specialist Wizard Class Level.
Specialist School Spell Slots and Domain Spell Slots are exactly what I suspect is meant by although STRICTLY speaking I don't think it's necessary to call out 'additional spells per day' since that is still a spell per day... by calling it out they are being 100% clear about it.
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@Dezakin: Think about the Witch FAQ for a moment, and why Patron spells aren't advanced.
At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron.... At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch's patron adds new spells to a witch's list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar.
So, the 1st thing being done is adding the spell to the list of spells known (which is only relevant if the spell is one not normally on the Witch spell list, which applies to some Patron spells but not all of them). Spells Known are gained via PrC advancement ONLY if you are a Spontaneous Caster, which Witches aren't, so Witch+PrC can't add spells to their list that aren't normal Witch spells.
The 2nd thing being done is adding the spell to her Familiar for free. But that is something that is NEVER done via PrC advancement... It's basically the same thing as Wizards' free 2 spells/ level which PrCs also don't advance.Other people have tried to argue that because the Core Rule FAQ says PrCs don't give Wizards their free Spellbook spells, that is a reason to not get Bloodline Spells Known from PrCs. As you see, those are not at all the same sort of thing... so that isn't really a good rationale to deny the RAW about gaining Spells Known if you are a Spontaneous Caster. :-)
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Seriously, no. Rage prophet is awful. Its a huge feat tax to keep up with rage powers and revelations, you lose a lot of spellcasting levels (5 altogether!) 2 levels of barb/x oracle is better than rage prophet. Its easily the worst of the fighting/casting PrCs.
Zark spelled it out best:
Oracle 1 + barbarian 5 + Rage Prophet 10 = BAB 12, CL 8 (or 13 when raging) , highest spell level 4
Oracle 4 + Barbarian 2 + Rage Prophet 10 = BAB 12, CL 11 (or 13 when raging), highest pell level 5There is some talk about Rage caster and Spirit Guide.
Rage caster is a joke. DC doesn't matter when you cast 3rd level spells at level 16. Even 5th level spells are but a joke - if we talk about spells that calls for a saving throw.
Unless he is ranging his his CL will suck.So what is good with this Class? The fighting power or the caster power.
Let's take a look at other 3/4 BAB classes.
Bard, Magus, Inquisitor: BAB 12, CL 16 highest spells: 6.
Cleric and druid: BAB 12, CL 16 highest spells: 8.
Fighter 1, wizard 5 + 10 level Eldritch Knight: BAB 12, CL 14, highest spell 8th.A 4th level oracle + 2nd levels barbarian + 10th levels Rage prophet can't even cast heal. Even a 6th level Inquisitor can cast heal. So is the Rage prophet a good spell casting class? No.
Concentration checks? Your casting spells in battle? The highest spells you can cast is 5th level spells. Even a Bard can d hat without a problem at level 16.So let's go Barbarian. 1 level oracle + 5 levels barbarian + 10 levels Rage prophet. Highest spells: 4th.
Ant can any other classes that at level 16 cast 4th level spells?Ranger and Paladin: BAB 16, CL 13, Highest spell 4th.
Sure you can have fun playing a rage prophet. You can have fun playing an expert also. Its a terrible design and someone was asleep at the wheel when they made it... even before considering the enormous feat tax that goes into making it because of the rage power and revelation feats required.
The 2nd thing being done is adding the spell to her Familiar for free. But that is something that is NEVER done via PrC advancement... It's basically the same thing as Wizards' free 2 spells/ level which PrCs also don't advance.
No, its not. Patron spells are spell access to spells not on the witch spell list; Its much more isomorphic to bloodline spells or mysteries; Specifically, bloodline spells and mysteries aren't called out in RAW as advancing with prestige class enhancement, but sorcerer and oracle class levels list bloodline spells and mysteries as sorcerer and oracle class features; Not spellcasting progression. It isn't clarified anywhere in any FAQ and arguing that they should get it is interpretations of conflicting ideas about the class features versus spellcasting progression.
Yeah I think they should get it, but I also think multiclassed spellcasters should have their caster levels be their hit dice.
If you looking at the class purely in terms of relative power it might not measure up to a straight oracle in spell casting nor will it measure up to a straight barbarian but it is going to hit harder than a melee oracle
No, it won't. 2 Barbarian/x oracle will hit harder than rage prophet. Same BAB, more spells for self buffing, and more feats that can be put into combat. That's the problem with rage prophet. It doesn't fit the niche of a hybrid class, because a melee oracle will out melee the rage prophet, and out cast the rage prophet.
Oh yeah, and it doesn't have to take that pointless moment of clarity rage power.
From Zark's post:
Oracle 4 + Barbarian 2 + Rage Prophet 10 = BAB 12, CL 11 (or 13 when raging), highest pell level 5
vs
Oracle 14 + Barbarian 2 = BAB 12, CL 14, highest spell level 7, 3 extra revelations.
If you looking at the class purely in terms of relative power it might not measure up to a straight oracle in spell casting nor will it measure up to a straight barbarian but it is going to hit harder than a melee oracleNo, it won't. 2 Barbarian/x oracle will hit harder than rage prophet. Same BAB, more spells for self buffing, and more feats that can be put into combat. That's the problem with rage prophet. It doesn't fit the niche of a hybrid class, because a melee oracle will out melee the rage prophet, and out cast the rage prophet.
Oh yeah, and it doesn't have to take that pointless moment of clarity rage power.
Yes but it will have less HP and not be able heal and keep raging (if they chose an ability other than lame, sacriledge I know).
Seems to me like you may have crunched more numbers than me so perhaps I should stop pushing it lol. I am more attracted the flavor than the power on this one.
You'll have the same hp, because of the favored class bonus. You will have 16 more hp while raging with the greater rage at level 16 I guess.
I really do like the flavor, I just wish someone ran the numbers on this before releasing it in the APG. I thought about making a rage prophet character to play and realized just playing oracle with a couple levels of barbarian is the same flavor and much more powerful. Now I realize you can make the build work just by forgetting rage prophet and just calling yourself that, getting more spells, more feats, but losing spirit guide and greater rage... and the sorta pointless ragecaster junk.
Get lesser spirit totem, intimidating glare, reckless abandon, inspire ferocity and you're a powerful buffer/debuffer with a bunch of spirits dealing damage around you while casting spells around the party.
Sure you can have fun playing a rage prophet. You can have fun playing an expert also. Its a terrible design and someone was asleep at the wheel when they made it... even before considering the enormous feat tax that goes into making it because of the rage power and revelation feats required.
A bit blunt, but I essentially agree with you.
A lot of your feats will be spent on buying rage power and revelation, but that is not all. It will also be spent on buying extra rounds of rage. You spend feat so you can try to pretend to look like a barbarian or an oracle or both. Problem is you can't pick any good rage powers and revelations because PrC levels don't count.
Primarily a caster: Honestly, I rather play a Oracle with some dips of Fighter, Ranger or Paladin. Boost my crappy fortitude saves, get a boost to my melee and some new candy. Or better, just play an Inquisitor (or Bard).
Melee with some spells on the side: Again, Inquisitor comes to mind. Paladin and Ranger are two excellent options. Or full barbarian with just one level oracle, with the lame curse. I could pick two levels Oracle if I wanted some cool domain spell, but I probably just pick one level for the flavor of it and for the curse. Or play a Barbarian with some Ranger levels so I get some more skills, a feat and can use wands. Or Barbarian with some druid levels or Cleric levels. Or, I could play ranger with some levels barbarian just for flavor. Heck, even a barbarian/bard (arcane duelist with the lingering performance feat) would be more appealing.
Or whatever, but Rage prophet? No never.
This is not a well designed PrC.
if you primarily have oracle levels, you will almost certainly need extra rage round feat(s).
if you primarily have barb levels, you will functionally have 'enough' rage rounds without taking that feat.
eventually you can convert spells into rage rounds,
but the problem for oracle-heavy builds is that you have to wait too long to gain that ability.
rage caster is nice for things besides concentration checks.
big fireballs, other CL-scaling spell effects (including duration), dispel checks, etc.
the CON to DC reduces your MAD and means you CAN cast spells whose DC is even half relevant.
Rage caster is useless, because rage caster only adds barbarian levels, not rage prophet levels. So you might as well just go oracle after the barb dip. CON to DC is pointless, because you can't cast high level spells with so many caster level hits.
You might as well just take heighten without rage prophet since you'll have more oracle levels and more spellcasting, or realize that you can just cast higher level spells that are more powerful than trying to squeeze a boost to DC's from low level spells from con while raging with moment of clarity.
Yeah you could take extra rage as a feat. Rage prophet doesn't grant any extra rage rounds either so, there you go. Forget rage prophet, a pointless PrC that makes you weaker than just dips in barb or oracle won't already get you.
It needs: Full BAB, 9 spellcasting levels, 2 rage powers, 1 revelation, additional rage rounds, level qualifications for barb powers and revelations
if you primarily have oracle levels, you will almost certainly need extra rage round feat(s).
Yes at least 2 or even 3 feats.
if you primarily have barb levels, you will functionally have 'enough' rage rounds without taking that feat.No. Especially not with rage caster when you want to boost your buffs with higher CL before a fight. Our barbarian is now 7 level. Not even he has always all the rage rounds he needs. From what I've heard from other players somewhere around level 8 or 9 the barbarian got all the rounds he usually needs.
eventually you can convert spells into rage rounds,
but the problem for oracle-heavy builds is that you have to wait too long to gain that ability.
It's a problem regardless of build and yet another example of bad design. They get Enduring rage at PrC level 6. So regardless of build you got to pick extra rage as feats. At least two feats regardless of build, especially since rage caster is going to eat some of your rounds.
rage caster is nice for things besides concentration checks.
Besides eating up you rounds of rage? Boost to CL isn't bad, but the boost to concentration checks not as good as it sounds. Seriously, what level of spells is this guy casting? He is at least level 9 when he get this ability. And he is casting 2nd, 3rd or 4th level spells depending on the built. Here is the fun thing. This ability eats rounds of rage, so he needs rage rounds to use this ability. This mean he probably going to pick more levels of barbarian than Oracle and this nerfs him as a caster since he is losing spell level. Catch 22. Bad design.
He is probably is casting 2nd level spells, and no higher than 3rd level. A level 9 spellcaster that needs help casting 2nd level spells? Bad design.
big fireballs, other CL-scaling spell effects (including duration), dispel checks, etc.
A) I don't think you get bonus Mystery spell as you level up as a PrC, but even if you do most players are not into this class to be a caster Oracle but to be a melee oracle, so I fail to see the need and point in being a blaster. Also if you want to be a blaster, even a part time blaster, you have to build it that way. Rage Prophet is a bad class if you want to be a blaster.
b) You get the bonus to DC at level 7 so your PC is now level 13. A fireball at level 13 will suck.the CON to DC reduces your MAD and means you CAN cast spells whose DC is even half relevant.
Spells whose DC is even half relevant at level 13? No, not at level 13. Not when you already down XXX spell levels. At PrC level 7 you are down at least 4 spell levels which practically is 5 levels since you as a spontaneous caster get spells one level later and since you probably go the barbarian route to get some round of rage, you are probably down 7 levels.
And you don't get the benefit from the con boost when raging since you can't cast 'big fireballs' when you are is raging, unless "When using moment of clarity" So the so called boost is probably only +2 to DC (con 14).As for powerful spells. At next level, that is Prc level 8, he doesn't even get a new spell level.