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I have a new idea for a Pathfinder Society Character, and I was wondering if anyone could give me input on how to improve it, as well as how well they think it would perform.
The main idea is to make use of the Opening Volley feat, which gives a melee attack a +4 circumstance bonus if the character deals damage with a ranged attack. I think this is fantastic for a full BAB class who has proficiency with martial weapons.
Once I get enough money, the plan is to use an axe musket instead of the normal musket so that he can fire his gun and then attack with a two-handed blow using Furious Focus.
Actually, a question about that: If he had a +6 BAB, giving him two attacks, could he fire his musket from 5 feet away, 5-foot step up, and then attack with Power Attack and Furious Focus? I suppose since it technically wouldn't be the first attack in the round it wouldn't apply.
Anyway, here's the build at first level:
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +5
DEFENCE
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+3 armour, +3 Dex)
hp 13 (1d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2
OFFENCE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee longsword +4 (1d8+3/19-20) or dagger +4 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged musket +4 (1d12/x4) or dagger +4 (1d4+3/19-20)
Special Attacks deadeye, quick clear, steady aim
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Gunsmithing, Opening Volley, Power Attack, Rapid Reload
Skills Acrobatics +7, Craft (Alchemy) +4, Diplomacy +3, Perception +5
Traits Indomitable Faith, World Traveler
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ deeds, grit (1)
Combat Gear alchemist's fire (2), sunrod (2); Other Gear dagger, longsword, battered musket, studded leather armour, explorer's outfit, backpack, belt pouch, bullets (30), flint and steel, gunsmith's kit, hemp rope (50 ft.), paper cartridges (5), powder horns (2) with black powder (20), waterskin, 2 gp
And my leveling plan (which involves going weaponmaster fighter after grabbing Gun Training):
Gun 2
Gun 3 Weapon Focus (Axe Musket)
Gun 4 Furious Focus (Str +1)
Gun 5 Point-Blank Shot
Fig 6 Precise Shot
Fig 7 Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot
Fig 8 (Str +1) <-- weapon training: Axe Musket (should include both ranged and melee; aiming for gloves of dueling)
Fig 9 Clustered Shots, Weapon Specialization (Axe Musket)
Fig 10
Fig 11 Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will
Fig 12 (Str +1)
The way I'm thinking is that the first few levels of gunslinger are a little boring anyway, so I had might as well pull out a longsword (holding my musket in one hand but not wielding) and run into melee when I've fired my shot. At level 3 when I buy my axe musket, I can start really doing damage in melee, but I'm always carrying a ranged alternative. Then when the enemies are all getting bigger and my BAB is improving, I can start improving the ranged aspect of things, because once you have Power Attack and Furious Focus, the rest kind of falls into place for melee.
Anyway, thanks for any advice, comments, or rants about this. :D
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Bump. I was hoping someone else might be excited about this idea too. :(
I'm starting to consider now how much gun training actually helps me. If it doesn't really help me that much, I might be better suited with only three levels of gunslinger to start out to grab Fast Musket, and then go straight into Weaponmaster Fighter.
Thoughts?
MERGY,
my last CHaracter was a musket master/fighter and it didn't work very well. you really have to be a gunslinger or put all your fighter feats into musket. when you "switch hit" it really takes you down . the damage I was doing was sub par and I wished i had gone musket master 3 at least for the treating the musket as a 1 handed weapon. you are very better than me than building characters but I was very unsatisfied with mine. i had lore warden for the know your enemy and it wasn't worth it. just my 2 sense.
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Thanks Lobolusk. Did your character make use of any melee, or was he ranged with fighter for extra feats. I do believe I can make the melee aspect of this work.
I've encountered an issue though! I won't qualify for Improved Precise Shot at level 11 unless I have a dexterity of 19, and I'm going to have probably only an 18 at that point. I suppose I could try to scrape up enough cash for a belt of physical might +4, but I had hoped for a belt of physical perfection instead.
I'll likely have a belt of physical might +2 at this point, so I'll only need to raise 24,000 gp between levels 10 and 11.
Thanks Lobolusk. Did your character make use of any melee, or was he ranged with fighter for extra feats. I do believe I can make the melee aspect of this work.
I've encountered an issue though! I won't qualify for Improved Precise Shot at level 11 unless I have a dexterity of 19, and I'm going to have probably only an 18 at that point. I suppose I could try to scrape up enough cash for a belt of physical might +4, but I had hoped for a belt of physical perfection instead.
I'll likely have a belt of physical might +2 at this point, so I'll only need to raise 24,000 gp between levels 10 and 11.
he was a rapier wielding, jungle explorer with a musket. I did better damage with the Rapier, but it was easier to hit with the musket but I lost a fullroud action every time I fired it. because it was still a move action to reload.
i tried to split my feats down the middle I took weapon focus and spec rapier and the next level I was going to do the same with the musket, but I had to take a few feats for the ranged abilities. like precise shot. i also took improved initiative and a trait that gave me +2 to INItive and had an 18 dex. so my INiative was +10. I tried to go "agile" with the rapier also. and it worked. but i didn't plan my gear very well.
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Rapid Reload (Musket) should apply to all musket-like weaons. The good part is stacking Weapon Focus, Specialization, etc. It's like two-for-one feats!
I'm avoiding the Finesse trap here. High strength means more damage. A middling dexterity is FINE considering full BAB and touch attacks. To be honest I could just forget about Improved Precise Shot and stay with 14 dexterity; that would save me some stats. What do you guys think?
Ummmm... this post isn't what I thought it was going to be about.
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This is what I'm going to do:
Stats
Tengu Gunslinger Musket Master
Lawful Neutral
Str: 7
Dex: 19
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 17
Cha: 7
Progression
Gunslinger1: Weapon Finese, Rapid Reload
Gunslinger2:
Gunslinger3: Opening Volley
Monk1: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, +1 DEX
Gunslinger4: Mobility, Deft Shootist Deed
Gunslinger5:
Fighter1: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter2: Point Blank Shot, +1 WIS
Fighter3: Rapid Shot
Fighter4: Deadly Aim
Fighter5: Precise Shot
Fighter6: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 DEX
Fighter archetype will be Weapon Master (unarmed Strike), the monk level won't have an archetype.
Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Wis +4, Gloves of Dueling, being the notable magic items.
Basically I'd like to go in and the full attack would be to shoot them in the face with a musket, follow with an unarmed strike with the +4 from opening volley, and proceed down the iteratives like that.
At level 12 the dmg stats should look like this:
Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot ON, Weapon Training on Unarmed Strike.
+2 Musket 1d12+16
+14/+14/+9/+4
Unarmed Strike 1d6+10
+17/+12/+7 --> (any hits by a musket shot will give the strike a +4, so these will go up.)
I do have a question that's been bothering me. Will additional attacks from a monk's ki pool stack with haste or rapid shot? I'm debating taking monk up to level 4 right after Fighter 3 instead of so many fighter levels.
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OP
Actually, a question about that: If he had a +6 BAB, giving him two attacks, could he fire his musket from 5 feet away, 5-foot step up, and then attack with Power Attack and Furious Focus? I suppose since it technically wouldn't be the first attack in the round it wouldn't apply.
From SRD
Furious Focus (Combat)Even in the midst of fierce and furious blows, you can find focus in the carnage and your seemingly wild blows strike home.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
Originally when I read furious focus I thought it was the first melee attack, but now that I look at it I don't think it will apply since it specially calls out, "the first attack you make each turn". I think it's bad wording and it should just apply to the first melee attack made. Probably can get away with it but would run into table variation.
I really like the build you posted Mergy. I think this type of character will be a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to leveling mine. He's lvl 3 so far.
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Musket warhammers are cool too.
The reason I'm thinking axe over warhammer is because axe covers the slashing angle that the musket will not have.
Veldebrand, my inspiration for the build is actually as the result of my tracking encumbrance very carefully; I've noticed that most gunslingers tend to be severely over-encumbered because of low strength values. A high strength gunslinger means no worries about that.
Also, being able to do melee and ranged means a lot more flexibility, and having access to all three damage types from a single weapon (and things like cold iron, silver, and ghost salt from weapon blanches on ammunitions) is even more flexibility.
I am sorely disappointed that this character isnt a swashbuckling pirate pistolero with a rapier, btw.
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So I'm stuck between two feat spreads now if I'm missing out on gun training.
Gun 1 Gunsmithing, Opening Volley, Power Attack, Rapid Reload
Gun 2
Gun 3 Weapon Focus (Axe Musket)
Gun 4 Furious Focus, Str +1
Fig 5 Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Fig 6 Precise Shot
Fig 7 Deadly Aim
Fig 8 Weapon Specialization (Axe Musket)
Fig 9 Improved Critical (Axe Musket)
Fig 10 Clustered Shots
Fig 11 Improved Precise Shot
Fig 12 Greater Weapon Focus (Axe Musket)
or
Gun 1 Gunsmithing, Opening Volley, Power Attack, Rapid Reload
Gun 2
Gun 3 Weapon Focus (Axe Musket)
Fig 4 Furious Focus, Str +1
Fig 5 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Fig 6
Fig 7 Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization
Fig 8
Fig 9 Deadly Aim, Improved Critical (Axe Musket)
Fig 10
Fig 11 Greater Weapon Focus (Axe Musket), Improved Precise Shot
Gun 12 Clustered Shots
I suppose it just kind of bothers me having a fighter who doesn't get a feat every level. The fourth level of gunslinger is an extra feat, while a ninth level of gunslinger is only an insight bonus to AC against axe muskets. >_>
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Mergy,
The build I posted would only have around 12 pounds of encumbrance. With the level in Monk and high wisdom he wouldn't wear armor. One of the considerations I made when creating it.
I checked and paper cartridges have negligle weight. The musket is 9 lbs, but other magic gear might only be 1 lb a piece. With 7 Str the light load limit is 23, so he's good even if equipping a 5 lb handy haversack to carry more goodies.
The more I look at your Str based one the more I like it. Having the Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and all that apply to the Axe musket in melee AND range really make that an attractive option. You don't really need the Gun Training. Originally I was skeptical, but after putting your build on my excel sheet it's pretty damn good.
I think you mentioned it before, but it will be hard to get the dex required to pick up improved precise shot. Will you shell out the 40,000 for a +4 str, +4 dex, belt?
As far as your two different builds, I'd go with the first one. The ranged part of your damage will probably be more effective so getting the rapid shot and deadly aim earlier will be helpful. Plus you are picking up clustered shots at the time you'll be needing it, where in the 2nd build it's not till level 12.
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Mergy,
I was looking at your first build and it looks like with a full gun volley, (4 shots) against touch ac of 10 you'd probably do 111 points of damage on average, without factoring misfire.
With melee and furious focus on the first hit, against a target with AC 25 it's about 81 damage for the 3 attacks.
With the melee, no power attack or furious focus against an AC of 25 with 3 swings you'll do about 70 damage.
All of that was assuming your character is level 12. There are tons of factors in play, and of course calculating in misfires is a big deal, but it's just some stuff for you to look at.
more details
+3 axe musket, Gloves of dueling, belt +4 DEX and STR
Ranged:
Deadly Aim, PBShot, Rapid Shot ON
+3 Musket
+21/+21/+16/+11 1d8 + 18 (19-20 X4)
Avg normal hit: 22.5
Avg Critical : 90
Miss rate : 0.05
Hit rate : 0.95
Critical Strike rate: 0.095
Normal damage hit rate (without crit hits): 0.855
Final damage per attack: 27.78 (for all iteratives because they all are above the target touch AC of 10)
Total: ~ 111
The math messes up because I'm not sure how to do this with the misfire values without writing a simulation. I'm not strong at math, and I don't have the time to make a simulation for the misfire values. So that will stop the damage in it's tracks.
Melee:
Against AC 25
Power attack, Furious Focus ON
+3 Musket
(FF)+28/+19/+14 1d8 + 24 (19-20 X4)
+28 interative ~ 35.198 dmg
+19 interative ~ 27.787 dmg
+14 interative ~ 18.525 dmg
Total: 81.51
Against AC 25
Power attack, Furious focus OFF
+3 Musket
+28/+23/+18 1d8 + 16 (19-20 X4)
+28 interative ~ 25.318 dmg
+23 interative ~ 25.318 dmg
+18 interative ~ 18.655 dmg
Total : 69.29
An interesting thing I noticed is furious focus doesn't do anything for you against AC 25. Your to-hit for your first iterative is so high. Might be able to save a feat.
On that same note. Opening volley won't do much for you either.
After looking at the numbers on my own guy, I was kind of disappointed in the effectiveness of opening volley. Both those feats are better at lower to-hit values and should be picked up as fighter feats so you can swap them out later. (but then you won't get the fighter bonus feats until these feats are outdated.... ugh,)
One of the things you'll run into is a low will save, maybe iron will instead of furious focus.
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There's no way I'm swapping Furious Focus for Iron Will. Perhaps Iron Will at level 11, and I'll grab Improved Precise Shot at level 12.
Also, the axe musket needs to be enchanted twice; it's likely I'll be going with a +2 axe +1 lucky musket.
Okay, what if I picked up Opening Volley at second level as my fighter bonus feat, and then went straight gunslinger until 4? That way I could trade out Opening Volley when it stopped being useful.
EDIT: I can live with Opening Volley being less useful at high levels. I'll still have the option to Rapid Shot then five-foot step up and attack with my lower iterative.
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Oh hey, I suddenly really want Point-Blank Master.
First thing: Rapid Shot into melee; after those two shots, whack him with the axe using the +4 circumstance bonus for accuracy and more damage! Also, awesome.
This is legal, right?
I suppose the attacks of opportunity for reloading in melee still apply. Oh well.
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I don't see why using rapid shot and then using melee for some attacks with your musket wouldn't work.
The deft shootist deed takes care of provoking attacks of opportunity while loading or shooting a firearm. The pre-req's are dodge and mobility; I don't see room for it in your build.
Lightning Reload, an 11th lvl gunslinger deed, takes care of reloading a weapon so you don't provoke AOO. Which brings me to what vexs me about multiclassing, it's often sub-optimal because you run into problems that conveniently go away by sticking with one class into higher levels. Of course there isn't enough feats to do what you are trying to do by going through pure gunslinger, so in the end it will be flexible from multiclassing, but have frustrating issues like this. (not to mention at lvl 13 a musket master never misfires)
After looking at both our builds I was thinking a hybrid of them might be good. Ranged, Melee, alternating with either just iteratives or a bit of two-weapon fighting. (Str based) I'll take a harder look at it and if it seems good enough to warrant posting, I will put it up just to throw out some other ideas.
I didn't realize you'd have to enchant the musket twice. For melee and ranged... Are you sure? I'm not exactly a rules lawyer, I'm fairly new to pathfinder and I'm stronger at DPR feasibility than actual rules.
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It's explicitly stated in the reading of the weapon that it must be enhanced twice.
I didn't realize Deft Shootist requires Dodge and Mobility. Ugh, why would anyone take that? I suppose I will just embrace the fact that I can do both; there's no need to try to mix the two in a single full attack. Enemies that I can shoot, I'll likely shoot. If they come into melee, I'll split them in half.
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Oh that's what all the stuff about a double weapon means.
I'm looking at Deft Shootist for my gunslinger. I really want him to be up in melee. He's a boon character (Tengu), and I love fighter types but figured I'd break away from my comfort zone and go gunslinger. I regretted it and now i'm looking for a way to get back into melee. That's why I'm looking at this type of switch hitter build also. I've been pouring over this stuff for a few days now. Kind of serendipitous to read your post.
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Well that's comforting I guess. I'll tweak it a bit more and then probably throw it in using one of my GM credits to have a masterwork musket at first level. After all, if I miss with the musket I'm going to have trouble hitting in melee.
What do you think of maybe spiked armour at low levels instead of the longsword. I could also pick up a masterwork buckler until he switches to the axe musket.
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Ooh, I just caught something vicious. Rapid Reload can only apply to a single type of firearm. I'm going to have to take my first few levels using a musket I can't even reload quickly.
That is, unless the phrase "It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe" means he would be able to quickly load an axe musket with Rapid Reload (musket)?
I hope so, blah. :(
Hey, one MORE thought: Is the critical range for the axe part actually x4? There's no mention otherwise in Ultimate Combat. I imagine there may be some raised eyebrows if I pointed to the chart and claimed x4 in melee, however.
It's weird, the phrase "It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe" can mean so many things. It can be used as both, but the musket does only 1d8; the battleaxe also seems to do 1d8, but does it crit at x3 or x4? How far does being used as both weapons go?
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Well gunslingers are proficient with all martial weapons.
Okay, so there are a few ways this can go.
One, the axe musket is a 1d8 ranged weapon with a 4x crit multiplier, and a 1d8 melee weapon with a 4x crit multiplier. That's what the chart says, and there's nothing to refute it in the text.
Two, the axe musket is a 1d8 ranged weapon with a 4x crit multiplier, and a 1d8 melee weapon with a 3x crit multiplier; we can infer that from the battleaxe, but there's nothing in the text to confirm it.
As for reloading, either Rapid Reload (musket) applies only to muskets, or to muskets, axe muskets and warhammer muskets, since all of these are meant to be used as muskets.
Ultimate Combat needs some errata, yeah?
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Okay, I found the answer to one of my questions at the start of the firearms chapter:
Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.
I think it's a pretty dumb rule, but whatever. My character will not be reloading very quickly until he gets his axe musket. (2200 gp, yeesh)
EDIT: And I just noticed this gem. The musket master archetype gets Rapid Reload specifically with muskets and nothing else. Blahhhh.
Gun 2
Gun 3 Weapon Focus (axe musket)
Gun 4 Furious Focus, Str +1
Fig 5 Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload (axe musket)
Fig 6 Precise Shot
Fig 7 Rapid Shot
Fig 8 Weapon Specialization (Axe Musket)
Fig 9 Improved Critical (Axe Musket)
Fig 10 Deadly Aim
Fig 11 Improved Precise Shot
Fig 12 Greater Weapon Focus (Axe Musket)
I had to get rid of Clustered Shots to ever have access to Deadly Aim. It's not a ridiculously huge loss, but I'm disappointed in how the musket master must only specialize in the musket, and not any derivative of it.
Fig 2 Opening Volley
Fig 3 Furious Focus, Point-Blank Shot
Fig 4
Gun 5 Precise Shot
Gun 6
Gun 7 Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (axe musket)
Fig 8 Weapon Specialization (axe musket), switch Opening Volley for Improved Critical (axe musket)
Fig 9 Deadly Aim
Fig 10 Clustered Shots
Fig 11 Improved Precise Shot
Fig 12 Greater Weapon Focus (axe musket)
With this one I delay my quick reloading, but I get it by the time I reach +6 BAB when it counts. I also lose Opening Volley by the time it has become far less relevant. Is Clustered Shots a good feat for this build, or should I be going with something different? I suppose I could get Iron Will at 9 and Deadly Aim at 10.
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Too bad Advanced Race Guide isn't available yet. You could use this:
Martial Versatility (Combat)
You further broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, human.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.
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That feat is okay, but I think I'll just go with grabbing Rapid Reload twice. It sucks that I'm getting a feat I can't use, but musket master is necessary for reloading a two-handed firearm like a one-handed at gunslinger 3.
Until there's errata or FAQ to say otherwise, however, I'm interpreting melee with an axe musket to be 1d8/x4.
I suppose it wouldn't hurt to save grabbing Rapid Reload (axe musket) until level 3; feasibly it would be difficult to raise enough to purchase one before then anyway.
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At least you are human and you have that extra feat. That's the only silver lining I see.
While I'm here i was wondering if anyone would know if a Tracer Bullet is 100 gold for 1 bullet or a stack of them.
In hero lab it has the cost as 1 gold for a tracer round, but of course that isn't Paizo material.
from d20
Tracer BulletAura faint evocation; CL 2nd
Slot none; Price 100 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
These +1 firearm bullets deal no damage, but instead cause a pale glow to outline the target, granting the effect of a faerie fire spell and causing the target to take a –2 penalty to AC against ranged attacks. These effects last for 1d4 rounds.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, faerie fire; Cost 50 gp
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They're most definitely 100 gp each.
I've decided to go with the latest build I posted; one level of gunslinger followed by three levels of fighter, picking up Rapid Reload (axe musket) at level three; that's about the time I should acquire a double masterwork axe musket.
Luckily, I might not have to wait that long; I've been getting a lot of GM credits lately.
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I've abandoned the switch hitter concept and decided on just using a gun, even in melee. So I'll go with the Deft Shootist Deed feat.
My g/f plays a ninja, so I'll provide her with flanking via a 1 level dip in Maneuver Master monk for Improved Unarmed Strike. Then finish the character off with Weapon Master fighter levels.
My final build will probably be:
Gun1 - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Musket
Gun2 -
Gun3 - Precise Shot
Gun4 - Agile Maneuvers
Gun5 - Dodge
Mon1 - Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Dirty Trick
Fig1 - Mobility, Deft Shootist Deed
Fig2 - Rapid Shot
Fig3 - Improved Critical: Musket
Fig4 - Deadly Aim
Fig5 - Clustered Shots
Fig6 - Improved Precise Shot
I think I'll just start off with an Improved Dirty Trick to blind, and that gives a great debuff for my ninja companion; four musket shots to the face will follow.
It won't be the most effective gunslinger, but I think it will be different and fun. The AC should be good, (planning on 24 dex, 22 wis), and then with the magic items 29 AC is easy to achieve before Mage Armor. Saves will rock.
I think your build will be stronger and lots of fun, but I was already level 3 when you posted it and it was too late for me to change mine to a STR based build.