I'm the DM, running Way of the Wicked (Fire Mountain Games, pathfinder ruleset), and one player will want to become a lich in the future.
I see the rules for the cost of the phylactery made with craft wondrous item (120,000 gp and the accompanying time costs), but no rules for a level adjustment.
Is there one? Is the crafting cost meant to offset other items that could be purchased (e.g. opportunity cost)?
Help appreciated.
You might wanna see if you could nerf it a bit.
No need to make it that complicated IMO. I guess it's up to the DM, whoever he or she is.
Is the crafting cost meant to offset other items that could be purchased (e.g. opportunity cost)?
I think the crafting cost is there more because you are creating an item who basically says : "I can't die if you don't break it !!"
3.5 had a necromancer class that slowly gained lich qualities and then finally became on at 20th level. Honestly, if you are running and adventure path you don't need to be worrying about this now. Just let the player run a necromancer type through the path and worry about it when he gathers the resources.
Thanks for the replies.
I looked at wealth by level and magic items to compare the cost.
It's whopping.
120,000 gold for the phylactery (that's a base cost, so it'd be 240,000 to "buy" one if that were possible) is huge. It's staff of power huge.
So, that said, if a player decides to dedicate the time (64-480 days depending) and the money, I think it should not require any adjustment for level.
Thanks again for the replies, they helped me decide that this line of thinking isn't overly broken.
It may interest you to learn that I am right now working on the appendix for book four that is all about running vampires and liches through "Way of the Wicked".
So, help is on the way.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
It may interest you to learn that I am right now working on the appendix for book four that is all about running vampires and liches through "Way of the Wicked".
So, help is on the way.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
Support like this is going a long way towards getting me to buy this adventure path... downloading the preview now
Thanks for the replies.
I looked at wealth by level and magic items to compare the cost.
It's whopping.
120,000 gold for the phylactery (that's a base cost, so it'd be 240,000 to "buy" one if that were possible) is huge. It's staff of power huge.
So, that said, if a player decides to dedicate the time (64-480 days depending) and the money, I think it should not require any adjustment for level.
Thanks again for the replies, they helped me decide that this line of thinking isn't overly broken.
Be careful. The lich template grants bonuses that are worth far in excess of 120,000 gold if you add them up and work them up as magic items. The undead type alone is absolutely priceless.
Are the other PCs getting something equivalent over this period?
Is there one? Is the crafting cost meant to offset other items that could be purchased (e.g. opportunity cost)?
The phylactery cost is not even half of the final cost. And the process will take longer than the campaign lasts unless you WANT the PC to become a lich.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html#_lich
The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.
Minimum 200,000 gp in non phylactery expenditures.
Numerous is a vague number of adventures. but it is a LOT of them.
Minimum 2 months, potentially 20+ years.
Liches are NPCs monsters. A player can pursue such a transformation if they are villainous enough to desire such, but the GM is well within their rights to just bleed the player's GP and time until the end of the campaign comes to pass.
Awesome to hear help is on the way, Gary (from Fire Mountain Games).
To Umbral Reaver and Frankthedm...I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers.
My number checks as DM are that 120,000 spent on create wondrous item = 240,000 purchased on an item.
that's more than a +5 vorpal sword.
that's about the cost of a staff of power.
AND it requires the player to devote time and scheduling to it, rather than simply buying the latter.
Honestly, I think I'd rather a wizard lich than a wizard with a staff of power...especially at higher levels.
Course, I could be TOTALLY off base here. I'm just giving info on where I'm coming from. If anyone would like to throw out some numbers or justification on how badly I've mistaken things, I'd be in their debt! I don't want to wreck the campaign, nor do I want to wreck the experiences of the other players.
But, as I see it, the benefit and the cost seem to be about on par (and if anything the cost might be too high).
I do wonder...are we letting the mystique of liches override what they actually are able to do with game mechanics?
If so, (or even if not) isn't there a difference between an eons old lich (with storehouses of resources, magic items, minions, wisdom, etc) and a brand new lich?
Good point, but I'm mainly discussing the balance issue, and I don't see lichdom being particularly better than the cost of other items that money could buy.
Frankthedm is pulling from canon, and I'm not one to separate the fluff from the crunch, but I'll also add that there aren't hard and fast numbers there (the fluff is vague), and one could say that those are the things that the adventurer/lich-to-be is doing during the course of levelling from one to (a minimum of ) 11.
I guess that I'm agreeing with Frankthedm that the ecology backs up an emphasis for DM adventure hooks along with some DM control about becoming a lich (and adds to the eventual mystique of the player's becoming a lich).
But, on the other hand, I'm primarily concerned with balance between pcs and the cost of becoming a lich versus the cost of other alternatives.
I worry that the 200,000 gp ON TOP of the 120,000 (plus the additional time expenditures) might make lichdom unappealing for anyone but NPCs (much like trapbuilding costs and poison costs seem to be "not worth it" in comparison to traditional magic items).
Aberzan there was a post breaking down lich abilities into magic item price. I will try to find it.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that thread.
I haven't gotten to read the whole thing yet, but (as DM) the campaign I'm running (Way of the Wicked) does have some substantial chunks of downtime (at least in book 1-3, I can only assume there will be some chunks later on as well).
I am comparing the 120,000 base cost of the phylactery (and the benefits of being a lich) to the 120,000 base cost of other items (or 240,000 market cost).
In this campaign, players will have the time to make items, and will be doing so. So, at least here, it's a pretty clear cut comparison (clearer than in the other thread).
The direct question is: is lichdom better than 120,000 gp BASE cost of other magic items, and if so, how MUCH better?
How do you put a price on being immune to two full schools of magic (enchantment and necromancy) and any spell which requires a fortitude save, effectively a permanent contingency true resurrection, immunity to cold and electricity, and the unlimited ability to command undead? You could give all your other players the half-dragon template for free, and still they would feel ripped off. I would put a lot more thought into this before allowing it, and discuss it with the whole party and make sure you can balance the other characters' power level some way. Nothing annoys players more than ending up as a side-kick.
Nothing annoys players more than ending up as a side-kick.
Some might make the argument that non caster are already sidekicks to full casters in d20.
BTW, would death knight be a reasonable consolation prize for the party combatants when the casters go Lich?
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that thread.
I haven't gotten to read the whole thing yet, but (as DM) the campaign I'm running (Way of the Wicked) does have some substantial chunks of downtime (at least in book 1-3, I can only assume there will be some chunks later on as well).
I am comparing the 120,000 base cost of the phylactery (and the benefits of being a lich) to the 120,000 base cost of other items (or 240,000 market cost).
In this campaign, players will have the time to make items, and will be doing so. So, at least here, it's a pretty clear cut comparison (clearer than in the other thread).
The direct question is: is lichdom better than 120,000 gp BASE cost of other magic items, and if so, how MUCH better?
Going by price the lich is clearly winning the discount battle. I would say that if all the liches abilities were pushed into magic items it would be at least 500,000.