If this question has been asked before, I apologize. I ran several searches on the forum, however, and found no matching thread. As such, I'm starting this one ...
I have a situation in which characters will be moving through confined spaces during a dungeon delve. We're talking long, winding hallways that are approximately 5 ft. wide and 8 ft. tall at any given point.
Taking in those space restrictions, it seems a bit odd to allow a player to use a two-handed weapon without penalty ( human body 3ft wide and 6ft tall, two-handed sword 5ft tall ... not even possible to do a 'baseball swing' or 'overhead smash' with it ). That said, I see no indication in the rulebook (perhaps I missed it?) of combat penalties for large weapons in confined spaces (it could even be argued that medium weapons would suffer in such spaces).
Seeing as dungeons/caves/tunnels/etc are all a common feature in Pathfinder ... it seems odd that there aren't any rules to handle these situations. Any help?
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You're looking for squeezing rules, which only apply to creatures moving through spaces smaller than their size. You could houserule that to apply to two-handers but the game as written abstracts combat too much to simulate reality that well.
Historically, Greatswords were used to stab as much as swing. So they'd work fine, just as any other stabbing weapon. But swinging an axe would be right out. I don't think there are any actual rules on the matter though.
However, the real question is: would it be fun to deny people the use of their main weapon? It can be, to make otherwise weak mooks dangerous opponents for a bit. But any prolonged tunnel-fighting will likely be rather grating to the players as well as their PCs. Make sure they all have small(ish) backup weapons.
Raw there's no penalties. 5 by 5 by 5 is enough room for a greatsword, greataxe, or polearm.
As a realistic effect, while swinging a sword in such a narrow area can be problematic, the swords do have the sharp pointy bit on the end for a reason and can be thrust. Its also much harder to DODGE that axe without somewhere to step to.
As a mechanical effect the martials have enough time dealing with reality as it is. Leave em alone.
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Such rules were intentionally left out of the game because they are not fun.
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I've always thought that there should be rules for it, but I don't remember seeing any. Personally I'd like something to make tunnel fighting feel different than open battlefield combat.
TriOmeegaZero is right that squeezing is a good starting point. Maybe saying that two handed weapons effectively bump you up to the next larger category in terms of space requirements. Basically a 2 hander makes you need a 10'x10' area or you are squeezed. But what does that do to reach? I think that would open up lots of special cases. Swing (slash and bludgeon) weapons really need more space, but thrusting (piercing) weapons won't need as much. And BigNoseWolf is right that some of the swing weapons can function in tighter spaces with minimal difficulty.
My best advice is to just experiment and see what your group thinks works best. Maybe you can make some recommendations that the rest of us can use. If you can come up with something that 1) makes sense, 2) isn't overly complicated, and 3) is fun, let us know about it.
- doug
Thank you everyone for the replies so far.
For those who state that space constriction rules are 'no fun', I am disinclined to acquiesce to your proposition. Each of us find different aspects of the game to be both 'fun' and 'boring' and it really boils down to how a situation is presented more than an exact rule being a detriment to the game.
For the rest who are interested in a conversation about house rules on confined spaces ...
Thank you for the reference to squeezing rules, they were a helpful read. I've taken a little bit of time to create my own proposal and would like to submit it for improvement and discussion on this thread. Here it is:
Combat penalties are determined by adding weapon length to character height or width (based on restrictive space) and then dividing the space available by that number to achieve a ratio. A character's width is considered to be 1/3rd of his or her height so long as they are generally of human proportions. The ratio is then checked on a small table for penalty. In the case of both height and width restrictions, the most restrictive ratio is used, the two ratios do not 'stack'.
Example calculation: I have a 6 foot tall character wielding a 5 foot long two-handed sword. This character is walking through a corridor 8 feet tall and 5 feet wide. My height ratio is 8/11 = ~0.73 and my width ratio is 5/7 = ~0.71. Taking the most restrictive ratio, 0.71, I consult the table below for my penalty and see that I will receive a -2 to both attack and damage.
Table:
1.00 or greater -- No penalty
0.75 - 0.99 -- -1 Attack/Damage
0.50 - 0.74 -- -2 Attack/Damage
0.25 - 0.49 -- -4 Attack/Damage
Less than 0.25 -- Weapon cannot be used
Special Rules:
* Thrusting weapons (spears, daggers, most piercing weapons) are treated as having 'zero' weapon length because of their nature to be used in a way that neither requires height or width.
* Bows and thrown weapons are treated as thrusting weapons.
* Crossbows and guns are immune to all confined space weapon restrictions due to their compact nature and trigger-activated mechanisms (though reloading may be an issue in particularly tight spaces).
Considerations:
* The above chart does require calculation, but generally a DM will know well before the game session whether or not characters will enter confined spaces and be able to jot down a few notes on expected penalties beforehand.
* I'm not sure that restricted height should matter as much as restricted width as full overhead swings are not terribly common, though partial overhead (diagonal cuts) would seem quite common. Perhaps height calculations should only take 1/2 the weapon length into account? Or does that take things into the 'too complicated' category?
* Anything I'm missing?
I was simply stating the reason that the developers gave for not including such rules.
Math wise your concept seems fine, but I had rolemastster flashbacks while reading it. Generally speaking I would avoid any rules that require a calculator unless its addition or subtraction.
Using a space too small circumstance modifier suggested above would be the simplest thing, but as also suggested above you can simply thrust with the sword negating any reason for the rules.
Hmmm ... ok.
So two replies that don't like the complexity/math involved in the chart. I tend to do a lot of math when building out adventures/sessions, so I am probably a bit blind to the added complexity of a bit more.
Perhaps something simpler where, instead of ratios, one could classify a confined space in general terms?
Barely Confined:
0 Penalty for light/medium/piercing/ranged weapons
-1 Penalty for two-handed weapons
Confined:
0 Penalty for light/piercing/ranged weapons
-1 Penalty for medium weapons
-2 Penalty for two-handed weapons
Very Confined:
0 Penalty for piercing/ranged weapons
-1 Penalty for light weapons
-2 Penalty for medium weapons
-4 Penalty for two-handed weapons
Tight Space:
0 Penalty for piercing/ranged weapons
-2 Penalty for light weapons
-4 Penalty for medium weapons
Two-handed weapons are unusable
Definitions of what each category really meant would be needed ... but would a system that takes math out of the figuring work out better? I tend to like math as I can simply plug a gigantic variety of variables into a single, simple equation, and get an answer that makes sense without having to consult a long list of charts and estimations. That said, if most people find charts more friendly, I am not adverse to them.
EDIT:
As for the "I can just thrust with my slashing weapon so no penalties are needed" argument, I agree that you can thrust with your slashing weapon ... which is why you only receive a penalty rather than a blanket "You cannot use it" statement. Piercing with a slashing weapon should envoke a penalty just as slashing with a piercing weapon would. Especially if the weapon is as unwieldy as a two-handed sword.
