I like to craft things in games. Making things is simply fun. What has boggled my mind a bit with Pathfinder and earlier versions are the open ended skills, craft, profession, etc. Craft tends to be the biggest offender but they all share the issue that while they have been left as open ended for what ever fits your game/character there are very specific versions of those skills that you do need in order make things in the game. I don't see why there isn't just a list.
Each time a slightly different skill seems appropriate a new craft skill is put in print, but this just leads to a vast swath of skills that you need to look up a head of time just to find out that you need to know it.
Has anyone done away with keeping craft as multiple skills and just use 'craft'?
Am I the only one that has bumped heads with this oddity?
As is I think these skills are fine on paper and can work as intended, flavor and fluff for your character. However, once they begin to be put in print as a specific skill that you need in order to fulfill requirements it just seems like it should have been a little better planned out.
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Well, one could presumably take Craft (Artist) and get all the other crafts under it... after all, isn't that Masterwork Armor just a work of art?
That is a cheap, cheezy way of doing it. But it, in theory, can work. I know artists who do metalwork, leatherwork, make boots, make mittens, make etc... so rationally its possible if you don't want to individualize it all.
Now, the problem with this approach is that a Blacksmith won't let you near their forge. Because to them you are not a Blacksmith and don't deserve to touch their tools. Which can be just as fun to play out.
Its really up to the GM. A Professional window maker may even employ an artist who just happens to work in glass. But generally they prefer glass makers. I hope the subtle nature of it isn't lost, because in the game it can be very fun to torment artists who claim to be able to craft anything with a single skill (and honestly, why can't they?). But take it as an opportunity as a GM to enrich the play. Make them starving artists! LOL
Crafting is really something they intend for NPC's. You can tell that by the crafting skill rules themselves- so "omg, craft skill bloat" isn't really something they are all that worried about.
It does make some sense that a glass blower isn't an expect armor maker, and that armor maker isn't an expert painter or brick maker or.. well, you get the idea.
That all being said though it wouldn't kill me, the idea of them consolidating them somewhat. But, it doesn't kill me the way it is either. I've yet to have a character take more than a point or two in any of the crafting skills.
-S
Greetings, fellow travellers.
To me, it's like in real life: If you really want to accomplish something, you've to concentrate for it (i. e. invest skill points).
Now, a game of PF is supposed to be fun. If crafting like it is presented is not fun to you - leave it or try to change it (talk to your GM, group the skills into categories, come up with DCs for individual items made via craft etc.).
And I certainly see overlapping possibilities. Need a bow? Ask a carpenter (prof) or a fletcher (prof or craft). Need metal working? Ask a smith (prof). She's shooing horses most of the time? Well, adjust crafting DC by 2. And similar.
Also, crafting is another mechanics, where interaction of PCs apart from battle comes in: one crafts the masterwork version of X, others get to enchant it. Mind you, it's not the wow! incredible! great! kind-a-stuff, but it helps the groups I game with/for to feel they've yet another thing accomplished as a team.
Ruyan.
As written, skills which PRODUCE GOODS are crafts, skills which PROVIDE SERVICES are professions.
I.e., 'carpenter' is a craft skill, not a profession skill. Ditto bowyer/fletcher, ditto smith.
Farrier is the profession involved in putting shoes on horses.
Scribe is a corner case... I would tend to rule it a craft, since it produces goods (documents).
One thing you need to realize is the concepts of the. Craft and profession skills are really applied from a medieval or renaissance fantastic setting.
What this means is in many cases people probly don't cross train. Also the majority of people doing these skills are probably lvl 1 to 3 experts. High end cross training wont exist because the schooling to teach it will not exist.
So, a blacksmith makes horseshoes and tools but likely would make a poor sword and likely even poorer armour. The more specialized skills likely could make horseshoes,but again wouldn't do the best job at it. Because the existing education structures and theme of most fantasy games support these seperations.
The separate skills exist because being the best blacksmith in existence shouldn't also make you the best carpenter, the best jeweler, the best stonemason, or the best underwater basket weaver.
They are all separate skills in Pathfinder because they are all separate skills in real life as well. (Mostly. Some of the various craft skills do have something in common. The basics of blacksmithing, armorsmithing, and weaponsmithing are probably pretty similar. But they all also have their own unique techniques and tricks.)
The blacksmith could churn out horse shoes than the armorer could. At least in real life.
One thing you need to realize is the concepts of the. Craft and profession skills are really applied from a medieval or renaissance fantastic setting.
What this means is in many cases people probably ddin't cross train (...)
So, a blacksmith makes horseshoes and tools but likely would make a poor sword (...)
If you want to go further, the craftsman who made the blade of a sword didn't installed the hilt, or engraved/ decorated the weapon or even sharpened the blade; these were all different professions (probably each with their own guild, which means that the secrets of the trade were guarded from non-initiates).
@Alitan:
By RaW, carpenter would be a profession, carpentry or wood-crafting would be a craft. The system has a lot of unfortunate overlap when it comes to profession/craft, mostly because in a pre-industrial revolution age, craft and profession meant the same thing. As you said, scribe is listed as a profession but can turn out a product. So does the brewer, the baker, the cook, the miller, the farmer etc. I really wish it was the same skill...
I really wish it was the same skill...
In my house rules, they are the same skill. Both Craft and Profession cover someones job, they both earn one half their check result in GP per week. The only mechanical difference is that the Craft skill can make stuff. There is no reason they couldn't both be covered in the same skill.
I don't care for the Craft skills at all, or the Profession skill for that matter.
Why dont I like Craft? Because in these newer versions of the game craft becomes less and less usefull. Lets see, I could place one rank into acrobatics, so I can tumble AND jump, or preception, so I can see, hear OR search. If I pick a craft, its only one thing it covers? I dont understand, you think bundling the weaker skills would be 1st, then the better skills an adventure are more likely to use 2nd. I get the idea of why they did what they did to the skills, but why only the "good" skills? Let's be truthfull here, all skills are not treated equally. I personally just bundle all the craft skills in my game and simply say; "You are good working with your hands." Done.
Why dont I like Profession? Because being an adventurer is a heroes job, firstly. I understand if if a PC wants to runs a shop on the side or a NPC needs a job title, but a vocation should never be the focus of adventure. We do the paperwork (A character sheet) to have fun, not think about even more paperwork of running a business. Again, I just bundle all of the Profession skills in my game and simply say; "You know the inner workings of business and commerce. How to work with-in one, or have one of your own." Done. The details are up to the players.
Each time a slightly different skill seems appropriate a new craft skill is put in print, but this just leads to a vast swath of skills that you need to look up a head of time just to find out that you need to know it.
Has anyone done away with keeping craft as multiple skills and just use 'craft'?
Am I the only one that has bumped heads with this oddity?
I doubt you're the only one, but I think the best remedy isn't to come up with an alternative structure or more rules. Rather, I think the remedy is to not sweat it so much. I know it's hard to do that. Gamer nerds are often far too pedantic for their own good.
- Remember that the craft skill can be tried unskilled. That means that everyone can at least try it without investing at all.
- Remember that normal NPCs don't get to be high level very often (if at all) so DCs for normal things shouldn't be particularly high. Even unskilled, PCs should be able to make some headway without always destroying their materials.
- Circumstance bonuses and penalties are a DM's friend. Use of one at a 2 or 4 point level along with a reasonably similar craft skill can and should go a long way.
There's no reason to feel paralysis looking at the list of specific crafts. Invest in what gives your PC the character you want him to have and don't sweat the rest too much.