I'm struggling as a DM to keep my players engaged in the adventure at hand. They're new to Pathfinder, though most have had tabletop RPG experience. In my party I have:
Half-elf paladin
Gnomish cavalier
Human Tactician
Halfing rogue
Aasimar cleric (healer)
Half-orc wizard
It's not that the combats are terribly difficult, but rather that we seem to get bogged down in "Wait, what am I doing? What are you doing? Maybe I should do this? No, that!" My cleric doesn't know what he should do if nobody needs healing, my cavalier keeps trying to optimize everything, and my wizard wants to do everything EXCEPT casting spells because he's totally concerned with DPR.
Outside of combat we're dealing with people not specifying their actions (Oh, I meant to check for traps) or simply not doing anything (I stand there). I frequently let them cast "detect plot hook" but a lot of times the party gets frustrated that nothing is happening when in reality The game won't respond unless THEY act first. I'm trying to make them proactive instead of reactive and I'd love any suggestions. Last week the characters missed huge amounts of content, items, exposition, etc because they just wanted to "skip to the boss fight". I let them miss it, consequences be damned, but I'm not sure how to convey the importance of exploring the world.
The party started at lvl 1 and now we're almost to level 3.
You can try to "lead them" at first. Once they have a go around you can take the training wheels off. Also, DON'T miss any boos fights as they usually extend the story line and they get treaure. Nothing puts a gleam in the players eyes as treasure. Also, ask for one and only one of the players to be the caller. The caller will tell you whats going on after they had a chance to quickly discuss their actions. Healers need to heal or the party dies. Rogues need to tell you in advance that they checked for traps, listened at doors, etc and they need to have their order complete as well.
They seem tentaive and unsure of themselves? If so, you need to guide them and not kill them off. They don't appear to have a lot of table top experience and are in need of guidence. If you kill them off one at a time they will lose interest. Also, how aware are they of their characters and their abilities? Are you running a module or a home brew? After things get streamlined they tend to work themselves out...
when my group first started, we used to give out bonus exp for people doing things well, remembering the rules, moving the game forward and playing at a high standard. This was a carrot for people that eventually shaped how our group works. Now I occasionally give out joke exp as its no longer neccesary. "Bonus 7 exp for Jimmy for remembering he had to draw his potion before drinking it".
Is there a "leader" for the party? Most groups have right an official leader "face", our unofficial one. Either way, it tends to be their job to help push the group in criterion directions our to ask certain questions, to keep the game going.
We have a leader-type character, but right now he's not terribly familiar w/ Pathfinder rules and tends to the "Well, I always loot the room why do I have to say it?" sorts of gaming practices.
The group is mid to late 20's (I'm 29 myself) and is fairly new to tabletop. Maybe I need a more forgiving learning curve, but I get frustrated when everyone wants to stop and argue the physics of a situation.
For example- our wizard got trapped under some burning furniture that he accidentally lit on fire (did I mention he doesn't like casting spells? He tried to throw a burning table and fumbled). Anyhow, the Paladin tried to get him out but she fumbled and landed on top. What's the wizard do? Hydraulic push. Fine, there's a roll and a concentration check and he makes it. I make a ruling that the paladin goes straight up and then down, landing on him and they each take 5 damage. We're suddenly arguing about the trajectory of the paladin based on where the jet of water emanated from the wizard >.< I almost wiped the party right then and there.
Arguing is something i tend to resolve as following.
If its a judgement call, the GM wins, period.
If its a rules call, the GM's ruling stands for that instance and people are encouraged to read the rules and bring it up during down time so we can make sure it is done correctly the next time.
We still have epic arguments, and people still laugh every time someone..
1) Climbs a tree
2) Casts entangle
3) Casts feather-fall on inanimate objects.
For the sake of keeping things moving, we try the "GM is correct and ruling stands, bring it up later and we'll see about next time".
We have the added advantage that 4 of the people at our table have/do GM so they know how it is being a GM.
In that case, rule 0. You're the GM, what you say goes. If after a minute our two of bantering about trajectory, just simply say, "they land there, and there, each take.5dmg. Period. " if they start to argue our don't like that, you can maybe want to their in a motivation as to why they shouldn't argue, primarily that the arguing is out of game, in this situation you mentioned, and they as players are wasting time on this and not the orc gusts protecting the adamantine hammer of destruction, our something.
If the "experienced" player is not familiar with pathfinder, let them know to be the leader our face or both, you don't have to know all the rules, just help keep the party organized and being efficient in as well as out of combat. (all players are doing something, not just standing there acting dumb in town. Going to a bar or brothel, or arrow is always better then simply saying, "I chill in town," or "I do nothing."
telling party buffers to buff,.and if the wizard refuses to cast spells to help the party, tell the pc they will die that much sooner because they are not helping like they should. (the party rogue looks for traps, not the fighter.) Meaning, everyone has a role, they need to do that role, or resort they are wasting time, energy, player patience, and more from the game because they aren't playing their character role they chose as they should.
This may not be the best option, especially if playing with friends. But you will find things speed up alot if you do it. Drop one of your players.
My experience is that 5 is the highest amount of players to have the game reasonably go smoothly. 4 is better but with 5 players have more room with the types of characters they want to play.
But try a 1 off game when somone is busy and then compare how fast things move compared to the 6 player game.
1. Keep the pace of the game flowing. Don't get bogged down in side conversations that add nothing to the fun of the game. Put a pin in them and come back to them afterwards. You're the DM. Make it happen.
2. Push the content. If players aren't being proactive then let them react to what you throw at them. Have plenty of things to throw at them. Maybe something or other will stick. If not, then adjudicate that several days of nothing to do go by and ask them what they are doing in the interim. Prod them along but give them opportunities to take action.
3. Ask them if they like their characters. If not, offer up some alternatives that they might like based on what you know of the players.
4. Sounds like your players, at this point in their careers, are interested in a hack n slash game. Perhaps go a little rules lite for now (until they get more up to speed) and do some dungeon delving, monster smashing crawls?
That's all I have for now. Good luck!
I run campaigns in my own custom world, so I can do things that might not be as easy for someone running a module or a commercially available campaign.
Having said that, here's how I try to train my parties when I GM.
Yes, I said "train my parties." Because I do train them, whether they realize it or not.
When I start with a new group, or even with a group that is not new, but several players have taken new roles in the party, I set up the first four or five encounters specifically to engage different tactical elements. Usually the first encounter is a straight up melee beat down encounter. This typically happens in town and involves the party being challenged by a local gang or group of thugs. I typically have this be done with non-lethal damage, but not always. In that encounter I try to gently recommend certain actions if I feel the player is tentative, confused or totally lost. I make deliberate use of common melee tactics like flanking, tripping, grappling, etc. As the NPCs take actions I spell out exactly what and why they are doing what they do. "The green-toothed thug is taking a five foot step, avoiding an attack of opportunity, to move into a flanking position opposite the one-eyed thug. This will give him a +2 to his attack." Stuff like that.
The next encounter typically involves ranged attacks, usually with concealed ambushers. In this encounter I try to demonstrate the effectiveness of ranged combat as well as to explore cover, line of sight and other ranged combat techniques or limitations.
Next I typically add the use of magic, pointing out how the NPCs are taking potions, casting spells, using scrolls, etc.
Then I mix it up and show how effective you can be in mixing up melee/ranged/magical encounters.
I also use effective tactics. I frequently will use lower level NPCs and demonstrate how effective tactics can really make the party suffer. Even simple things like focusing fire on one party member, or using a pit to force the party to move through a certain square...
When I have NPC supporting characters (healing, buffing or battlefield control) I play them up, pointing out how critical their action was to making the NPC's tactics successful.
In essence I try to demonstrate and teach by example. Once I'm comfortable that the party is comfortable in their roles and understands basic tactics, I stop describing everything and concentrate only on explaining some new or unusual tactic so the players can decide if it's something they want to add to their own arsenal.
Remind them they should be thinking about what their character is going to doing before their initiative is called. I like the idea of using an xp bonus as Spahrep suggested. 10 xp here and there for minor things like the rogue remembering to say I check for traps or search the room. 50 xp for the wizard using a spell effectively or the cleric coming in with an appropriate heal at the right time. Reward role playing well, they should be exploring the enviroment, talking to NPC's. You can wheen them off it after awhile, maybe give them small bonus at the end of each game night (a couple hundred or so)and then no bonuses after they get it down.
when my group first started, we used to give out bonus exp for people doing things well, remembering the rules, moving the game forward and playing at a high standard. This was a carrot for people that eventually shaped how our group works...
This works extrememly well for some groups.
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... we seem to get bogged down in "Wait, what am I doing? What are you doing? Maybe I should do this? No, that!" My cleric doesn't know what he should do if nobody needs healing, my cavalier keeps trying to optimize everything, and my wizard wants to do everything EXCEPT casting spells because he's totally concerned with DPR...
1) Don't allow significant OOC table talk during fights. "The orcs heard you tell the human you are going to trip their leader, so all the archers fire their arrows at you." But I didn't say that out loud! You had to have. If he didn't ask the question out loud, you have no way of knowing he wanted the info to make his plans. If you didn't say it out loud, he has no way of using the info to make his plans.
2) Before you start anything for the day tell them flat out, "You need to be thinking about your actions before your turn. When your turn in the initiative comes up, I'll ask you what you are doing. If you don't have an answer, I will count to 5. If you still don't have an answer, we will continue on in the initative while your character 'studies the situation.' Then you can act in the next round."
3) Suggest to them that they make some standard tactics (like football plays) so that they don't need to talk about it during a fight. Ex: if leader calls 'enigma run' at the start of a fight, every one follows the same general actions. (a) Everyone holds their action till after the wizard casts the fireball. (b) Then the cavalier and tactician charge. (c) While the rogue tries to maneuver to backstab the enemy squishies. (d) The cleric casts buff spells unless someone calls for a medic.
... Outside of combat we're dealing with people not specifying their actions (Oh, I meant to check for traps) ...
4) You're still kinda beginners so you each get '1 redo' a night for minor forgetfulness items like this. You didn't tell me you were going to search for traps. Are you going to use your 1 redo to check for traps?
... simply not doing anything (I stand there)...
5) This one is difficult. In extreme cases. I've been know to say nothing happens and just wait on them.
... I frequently let them cast "detect plot hook" but a lot of times the party gets frustrated that nothing is happening when in reality The game won't respond unless THEY act first ...
6) Flat out tell them exactly that. "You seem frustrated because nothing is happening, but this is a point in the plot where you are supposed to chose what you are going to do about the situation."
... I'm trying to make them proactive instead of reactive and I'd love any suggestions ...
7) This is a personality trait. You can not make them change their personality. Have you discussed this with them? Now if they agree with you that they want to learn how to be more proactive, you can help guide them.
... Last week the characters missed huge amounts of content, items, exposition, etc because they just wanted to "skip to the boss fight" ...
8) You may have to let them skip it and then lose (or maybe just almost lose) because of it. Tell them why. "Yeah you had alot of things going against you during the boss fight. He had DR 10/adamantine. Since you didn't search anyplace you didn't find the adamantine great axe. And all the reinforcements that kept coming in every 3 rounds were from all the guard posts you left behind you. Also, the module assumed you would fight the wizard in his rooms and the demon would be alone at the end. Since you didn't go to the wizards rooms, he was with the demon casting buff spells on it the whole time."
... I get frustrated when everyone wants to stop and argue the physics of a situation ...
9) Just let them know ahead of time about GM calling it. Then as soon as they start arguing, say "Look physics doesn't always apply to magic, it may not be perfect but for now during play we're going with this. After we are done for the night we can discuss how we are going to handle it next time."
... For example- our wizard got trapped under some burning furniture that he accidentally lit on fire (did I mention he doesn't like casting spells? He tried to throw a burning table and fumbled). Anyhow, the Paladin tried to get him out but she fumbled and landed on top. What's the wizard do? Hydraulic push. Fine, there's a roll and a concentration check and he makes it. I make a ruling that the paladin goes straight up and then down, landing on him and they each take 5 damage. We're suddenly arguing about the trajectory of the paladin based on where the jet of water emanated from the wizard ...
10) I would say this one is at least partially on you. I agree with using amusing results for fumbles. But I have to say I find it had to imagine how I could try to throw a burning table and end up under it. Then try pull someone out from under a burning table and end up on top of it. Then a magic spell that throws them perfectly straight up so they come right straight back down on the victim. It is kinda funny on a 3 stooges level. But if you group doesn't also find that kind of thing amusing, it will only cause resentment (and realism arguments).
Talk to your players. It sounds like they want a different type of game than what you want to run.
I would say this one is at least partially on you. I agree with using amusing results for fumbles. But I have to say I find it had to imagine how I could try to throw a burning table and end up under it. Then try pull someone out from under a burning table and end up on top of it. Then a magic spell that throws them perfectly straight up so they come right straight back down on the victim. It is kinda funny on a 3 stooges level. But if you group doesn't also find that kind of thing amusing, it will only cause resentment (and realism arguments).
This one actually went down like this:
Wizard: Is the table on fire from that alchemist fire?
Me: Yes, it's burning
Wizard: I throw it against the guy
Me: Make an attack with the table
Wizard: I roll a 1
Me: You push the table down into the floor because your footing is off. Make a dex check to stay on your feet
Wizard: I fail
Me: Ok, roll a 1d6 to determine where you fall. 1 is dead-ahead
Wizard: I roll a 1
Me: Roll a fort save for the table
Wizard: I roll a 3
Me: In your zeal to push the burning table it collapses under your touch, you fall over the front half and are entangled in a broken table that is on fire. Paladin, it's your tunPaladin: I try to kick the burning wood off of him.
Me: You kick it? You don't want to pull him?
Paladin: No, I kick it!
Me: Roll to hit
Paladin: I roll a 1
Me: Make a dexterity check to stay on your feet
Paladin: I fail
Me: Roll for direction, 1 is straight ahead
Paladin: I roll a 1
Me: You wind up to kick the burning wood off the wizard but are unbalanced by your armor and fall on top of him.Next round
Wizard: Can I cast a spell?
Me: Sure, with a concentration check.
Wizard: I cast hydraulic push up at the paladin
Me: She's right on top of you...
Wizard: So I roll?
Me: Go ahead
Wizard: Success
Me: The paladin is knocked 10 feet in the air by the force of your blast and the flames are extinguished. She then begins to fall back to the ground.
It WAS 3-stooges level but I wanted them to live with consequences of decisions, and now the wizard knows that hydraulic push can have a starting point other than the square they're in. I guess that do-over should be applied more liberally.
Like I said, at least partially dependent on what the group finds funny.
Personally I love it when things like that happen. My current group would have laughed their ashes off during that without any arguments. But I've been in some that would just be annoyed.
Is Hydraulic Push always exactly parallel from the caster?
With that level of bad rolling there's not much you can do as a PC but throw up your hands (and throw your dice across the room) and have a good laugh at your own expense. It's nothing to get too worked up over.
The above is advice for your players, BTW. *grin*
...
2) Before you start anything for the day tell them flat out, "You need to be thinking about your actions before your turn. When your turn in the initiative comes up, I'll ask you what you are doing. If you don't have an answer, I will count to 5. If you still don't have an answer, we will continue on in the initative while your character 'studies the situation.' Then you can act in the next round."
...
By the way, don't be an extreme hard ash about this one. I often have to ask questions of the GM when my turn comes up. Not because I didn't pay attention or think about my actions. Usually just a request for more details that it would have been reasonable for my PC to have noticed.
For example some things that just happened last night:Wait, you said 'big' headless apes. Do you mean large sized and probably have reach or their just brawny but still medium sized?
Generally how big are the rocks in that pile of rubble?
I can't tell from the map, does it look like I can run past the pool without falling in?
You said the floor slopes up toward the far end. Do you mean we're going to need to make climb checks to get there or just that the other side of the room is a couple of feet higher?
Things like that are perfectly reasonable. They also show the players are thinking about things and paying attention.
I forgot about that. It was particularly amusing.
Is Hydraulic Push always exactly parallel from the caster?
The wizard found out later that it can be from any point of origin within the range of the spell. I used it as an opportunity to teach the principle of "Know thy S!#%".
Any slight angle would have pushed the other PC in such a way that he did not fall back on top of the caster. Without knowing the specifics of the spell itself and exactly how the player stated his intent, this sounds like it could be a case of piling on.
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The best way to keep your party going is to force them to make characters with solid backstories and motivations and friends and foes, and then make them game revolve around those things. Cater to each character's strengths at diffent times, and focus on their weaknesses at others. I had a similar campaign, but I was given a link to a book that's a system-neutral guide to GMing. It's really changed the way I do what I do. When I read the book, I killed the current campaign (at level three) and started a new one using the advice in the book. It's called Gamemastering, by Brian Jamison. It's available as a free pdf via google search. I strongly encourage you give it a look and see if you think it will help.
I could be completely wrong, because I am running on a very small dataset, but it sounds like you and your players have different ideas of what the game should be.
It sounds like you are looking to run an exploration/ story game. It sounds like the players want to play a hack'n'slash, kill the monsters and take the loot game. There is a comfortable medium between these two playstyles: it's called the railroad plot.
Lots of folks cry against it, but it's GREAT for new players and new GM's. You use an NPC benefactor/boss to push them at the dungeon.
-Make the dungeon such that they go through in a somewhat linear path.
-Put monsters or traps in each room.
-Make sure that there are encounters that play to the strengths of all the PC's.
-Insert exposition and hints along the way as they loot the room in the form of documents, things the monsters say prior to being smushed, and artwork on the walls.
-Give the Big Bad Evil Guy a short speech at the end (remember that talking is a free action) or have a very obvious plot hook for the next stage of the adventure in his bag/chest/desk/throne, etc.
If the players just stand there, call for perception checks. Pull the DC out of your nether regions such that the highest roll sees whatever it is that you need them to see to move forward; the glint of gold through a door, motion, a secret door, whatever.
-Aaron
UPDATE
So talking with the players I got the understanding that they're not really sure how exactly they can use their skills during the story to make things easier, so I've decided to give them hints for "passive knowledge" checks.
In last night's game the party was facing off against tieflings. I told the cleric that he recalled from his religion training that outsiders can be sensitive to bright light, and then that led the wizard to dazzling some of them and helping the fight.
Also, I'm trying to be more descriptive with how things actually function in the game to give hints. The halfling is trying to pick several jail cells, so I told him that engineering might help understand the mechanism. In comes our tactician with his Knowledge: Engineering skill and we get an assist in unlocking. On the next cell it doesn't work the same way but rather than just leaving it as a "you fail" I say "As you try to manipulate the tumblers the hair on your arm stands on end, as though energized". Well that's enough for the wizard to clue-in that it's a magic trap so we do a Knowledge: Arcana and manage to get that cell door open.
I'm also "railroading" through the dungeon with a fairly linear progression of rooms, but at least they're having fun AND actually discussing the plot.
There was one particularly memorable scene where two players were arguing about the order to burst in the room- cavalier charge THEN wizard cast a spell or vice-versa. I told them they could actually decide things like "After your charge attack, shut your eyes". It was a little bit hand-holdy and sometimes they could tell that all choices were leading to a common end, but that's how games are sometimes.
Thanks for all the good suggestions. Next week I'm introducing them to how awesome alchemical weapons can be.
One of my favorite moves when the players miss some hidden cache of items in a dungeon is have a group of local joes wander into the tavern they're in after the adventure, chortling about the money they looted from the dungeon that the unobservant adventurers cleared out. In an evil party, this may result in a TTK (total tavern kill), but with good heroes they'll just feel sheepish and explore more. Beware of Take 20 in Every Room syndrome.
... Beware of Take 20 in Every Room syndrome.
My group seems to have no concept of anthing between check nothing and race through or search and loot everything possible.
It sounds like what you're doing is working and keeping your players engaged, so good job!
I get the impression that your players didn't know what they could or couldn't do, so they were just being creative. While they're learning the ropes, reduce the penalties for improvised weapons and other odd tactics. They'll eventually learn how to Min/Max, but in the meantime, maximize their enjoyment by rewarding their attempts to be cinematic in their play.
You can let your players have more input into the game world around them. If someone clearly pictures the area differently than you do, but his efforts don't contradict what "must be" for the adventure to work, let their imagingings change the scenery. As an example: You might not have pictured an empty barrel in the storage room, but if they need one for a cool stunt, there's no harm in letting them find one.
If someone wants his wizard to flip a burning table at his foes, there's nothing wrong with that. It might not be the optimal way to do business, but a two-fisted brawling wizard sounds like a fun character. If a paladin wants to kick a burning table instead of pulling out the guy trapped beneath it, there's nothing wrong with that, either. I'd have let the Hydraulic push work as the player intended instead of making him ignominously fail: Teach through success, not failure.
You may want to hold their hand a bit more: Keep giving them "railroad" plots until they start developing their own motivations. Advise them about how their spells and powers can work.