Seems like an obvious combo, right? It does to me. I walk at full speed, pass withing ten feet of a trap, automatically take 10 and find the trap like clockwork, all the time. But now I've re-read the sections on these talents as well as the one on taking 10, and I'm not so sure it's legal. Bear with me:
From page 69 of the CRB
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM
See that? Unlike deliberate, player-rolled trap spotting it's a secret, involuntary check, made by the GM. The wording even implies a roll. Can one take 10 on such a roll?
I'm not so sure. The first sentence of the Taking 10 section on page 86 of the CRB states "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10."
"Choose" is the key word here because in the case of Trap Spotter the player is not choosing to make the roll, and because it's a secret roll the player is not in a position to choose anything. It seems to me taking 10 on such a roll is impossible, even when it would be without any rogue talents at all.
Page 86 goes on to clarify: "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."
What this says to me is even if I have neither Trap Spotter nor Skill Mastery as long as I am spending a move action every round to actively trap search (as defined under the Perception skill) and I don't have a combat or other threat/distraction around me, I can take 10 all day. However, if I were to gain Trap Spotter and stop actively searching, I would find a loss in no longer being able to take 10, even when undistracted.
But does Skill Mastery solve the problem? Doesn't it let you take 10 no matter what? Nope. All this talent lets you do (page 70, CRB) is take 10 "even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so." According to my reading, this would be irrelevant to the Trap Spotter roll, as distractions are not what keeps the character from taking 10, but the special nature of the Trap Spotter Perception roll. Skill Mastery helps the deliberate trap seeker when under stress, but not the rolls being secretly made by the GM.
Quick, someone out argue me! I don't want to be right!
But does Skill Mastery solve the problem? Doesn't it let you take 10 no matter what? Nope. All this talent lets you do (page 70, CRB) is take 10 "even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so."
I think it's just a minor wording variation.
You can take 10 when not in immediate danger or distracted.
Skill Mastery lets you take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent it.
I think the stress correlates to immediate danger, since otherwise it would be meaningless.
Basically, Skill Mastery shouldn't let you take 10 on actions that do not allow taking 10 (like Use Magic Device), but does let you take 10 on actions that allow it, in situations where you normally couldn't (like Knowledge (whatever that monster is) during combat).
I would allow people to take 10 on perception checks to look for traps, even passive ones. The 'roll' is still secret so the Rogue doesn't know when he misses one (until the trap is set off).
Yes, the player could metagame and look into a room and say "Well, we know there's no traps with DC lower than X! According to the book that would be CR Y, so we're in the clear." But they can do that anyway, so that's not a problem related to any of the skills, it's a problem with the player.
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In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).
I read that as you have to voluntarily take 10. If you don't even know you are making a check how can you voluntarily choose to take 10?
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).I read that as you have to voluntarily take 10. If you don't even know you are making a check how can you voluntarily choose to take 10?
That's how it works with Disguise.
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Remember, there's nothing in the rules stating that a secret check made by the GM has to be a roll instead of a T10 - you're inserting that yourself. In fact, you haven't even really stated why you think it's "implied". Just because it's supposed to be secret?
On the contrary, it'll be even more secretive if you do T10 on those, since then you don't get to see me roll a d20 and have to try not to metagame.
If you tell me before we start that you have Trap Spotter and like taking 10, then I can write down your T10 result (just by adding 10 to your bonus), flip through the scenario, and put a little note by each trap that you'll spot.
That actually makes things MUCH easier for me as the GM.
Jiggy, your points are well taken. I am convinced. It was largely Ossian's question that concerned me,
If you don't even know you are making a check how can you voluntarily choose to take 10?
but now I see the answer is "By knowing that you're going to be making the checks eventually and telling the GM ahead of time 'I'm going to be taking 10 on all those checks, when possible.'"
I can hear the traps shaking in fear of my coming. Shake, traps. Shake for daddy.
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Remember, there's nothing in the rules stating that a secret check made by the GM has to be a roll instead of a T10 - you're inserting that yourself. In fact, you haven't even really stated why you think it's "implied". Just because it's supposed to be secret?
On the contrary, it'll be even more secretive if you do T10 on those, since then you don't get to see me roll a d20 and have to try not to metagame.
If you tell me before we start that you have Trap Spotter and like taking 10, then I can write down your T10 result (just by adding 10 to your bonus), flip through the scenario, and put a little note by each trap that you'll spot.
That actually makes things MUCH easier for me as the GM.
See now this makes sense, but as a GM I can't and shouldn't blindly assume you are taking a 10. And, if I come out and ask if you are taking a 10 then it kind of spoils the trap. If you come out and tell me that is how you'd like it to work then fine.
The text that made me think you'd have to be aware of the roll is the part that says, "...you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect...," those key words indicate an awareness to the situation at hand that until the roll succeeds you don't have. Its a voluntary decision you make, and if you are unaware of the trap then how can you make that decision?
Again thats just my interpretation on how its read.
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See now this makes sense, but as a GM I can't and shouldn't blindly assume you are taking a 10.
Well, duh. :P I did say "and if you like taking 10". The idea is that when you tell me you have Trap Spotter, I ask whether you'd like me to take 10 or roll, and then I'll do that for every trap. (I guess you could specify that you want to take 10 in rooms and roll in halls, or some other division like that, but that's starting to be a lot of work on my part...)
The text that made me think you'd have to be aware of the roll is the part that says, "...you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect...," those key words indicate an awareness to the situation at hand that until the roll succeeds you don't have. Its a voluntary decision you make, and if you are unaware of the trap then how can you make that decision?
By having a standard operating procedure, of course. People who are trained to do a certain task may not foresee the need for that task at a certain point in time, but that doesn't mean they don't know ahead of time how they'll handle it if the situation does come up.
Think about this in-character: the Trap Spotter isn't suddenly getting the urge to look for traps, then surprising himself by looking for them (and then forgetting that he looked, if he failed). He's constantly looking for traps in-character, but out of character there's no point making checks until there's actually a trap there to detect.
So really, it's more like a Trap Spotter has trained himself to be on the lookout every waking moment of every day. When you consider that fact, it actually means it makes more sense to always Take 10 with Trap Spotter than not to, as he's constantly making a standard effort. For him to not T10 on Trap Spotter checks would mean (in-character) that he's constantly paying varied levels of attention to his surroundings (OOC, constantly rolling checks). Why in the world would someone so trained in being alert and aware throw it all away by being so haphazard? Anyone wanting to roleplay a competent trap expert should be taking 10 on their Trap Spotter checks.
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See now this makes sense, but as a GM I can't and shouldn't blindly assume you are taking a 10.Well, duh. :P I did say "and if you like taking 10". The idea is that when you tell me you have Trap Spotter, I ask whether you'd like me to take 10 or roll, and then I'll do that for every trap. (I guess you could specify that you want to take 10 in rooms and roll in halls, or some other division like that, but that's starting to be a lot of work on my part...)
The text that made me think you'd have to be aware of the roll is the part that says, "...you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect...," those key words indicate an awareness to the situation at hand that until the roll succeeds you don't have. Its a voluntary decision you make, and if you are unaware of the trap then how can you make that decision?By having a standard operating procedure, of course. People who are trained to do a certain task may not foresee the need for that task at a certain point in time, but that doesn't mean they don't know ahead of time how they'll handle it if the situation does come up.
Think about this in-character: the Trap Spotter isn't suddenly getting the urge to look for traps, then surprising himself by looking for them (and then forgetting that he looked, if he failed). He's constantly looking for traps in-character, but out of character there's no point making checks until there's actually a trap there to detect.
So really, it's more like a Trap Spotter has trained himself to be on the lookout every waking moment of every day. When you consider that fact, it actually means it makes more sense to always Take 10 with Trap Spotter than not to, as he's constantly making a standard effort. For him to not T10 on Trap Spotter checks would mean (in-character) that he's constantly paying varied levels of attention to his surroundings (OOC, constantly rolling checks). Why in the...
And that makes sense, but to assume is never a good thing. I always treated it as a spidey sense...you have a bad feeling there is a trap around, or you notice subtle clues to alude to a trap. It has never been an oh you spot the trap while you walk by type thing...
Move along people!
This is a talent for kender, who do not/will not consciously search for traps!
There are several feats/talents that are kender related!
Oh bother. Now the timeline can be altered.
In any case, the player is the one that gets to decide whether he's taking 10 or not; he just has to do so ahead of time, or else it's assumed that he is not. This fulfills the requirement that the player can "elect" to take 10.
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And that makes sense, but to assume is never a good thing. I always treated it as a spidey sense...you have a bad feeling there is a trap around, or you notice subtle clues to alude to a trap. It has never been an oh you spot the trap while you walk by type thing...
Nah, there's already a spider sense in the game: it's the Foresight wizard's Forewarned ability - he can always act in the surprise round, even if he's unaware of danger!