As in, whenever you get another BAB point, you get a feat.
Every class would still get one feat at level 1.
But do you think this would help the more martial classes keep up with the casters?
But then fighters would have TWO FEATS every level.
In my opinion, there just isn't a large amount of feats for this.
No amount of feats will compromise for the power of high level spells.
The biggest complaint I have about Martial Classes though isn't their power at high levels, it's that they have to wait for power at low levels.
Take the Dimensional Agility line for instance. Sounds really cool, but you're not going to see it blossom with Dimensional Savant until level 14ish (I think.) In the meantime the Wizard has Black Tentacles at level 7.
In fact, spells give a feeling of incremental upgrading in a way that feats and other class features seemingly do not.
I'm not asking for more power with feats, just variety. Why does my fighter have to be ONLY good at Tripping and Disarming if that's what I spend my feats on? Why can't I get better at the other Combat Maneuvers?
- It would do nothing compared to the power of spells.
- Unless a whole lot more super good feats get published, it wouldn't actualy raise power that much. IME, a Fighter is lacking for enough A+ feats to fill his slots; any "feat starvation" is due to filling up on crappy pre-req feats in order to "get to the good stuff."
- It would possibly make Fighter feel obsolete next to other full BAB classes. I don't actually mind this one, I've grown to hate the generic Fighter holding back the other martials by the unwritten requirements that "no mundane class can exceed me in combat" and "no way no how am I ever getting wuxia/weaboo/wire-fu/super-saiyan level powers to actually compete with the casters!" Seeing it become obsolete and abandoned would actually be awesome, I'd love to remove that yoke from the neck of all the other non-casters!
- Monk and Rogue are already the weakest combat classes; their BAB is too low to get much benefit out of this, so they'd only fall further behind the other full BABs for combat power.
So overall I'm opposed, though not by much. Mostly due to point #4. If rogue/ninja and monk got full BAB as well, I'd be all for it.
- It would do nothing compared to the power of spells.
- Unless a whole lot more super good feats get published, it wouldn't actualy raise power that much. IME, a Fighter is lacking for enough A+ feats to fill his slots; any "feat starvation" is due to filling up on crappy pre-req feats in order to "get to the good stuff."
- It would possibly make Fighter feel obsolete next to other full BAB classes. I don't actually mind this one, I've grown to hate the generic Fighter holding back the other martials by the unwritten requirements that "no mundane class can exceed me in combat" and "no way no how am I ever getting wuxia/weaboo/wire-fu/super-saiyan level powers to actually compete with the casters!" Seeing it become obsolete and abandoned would actually be awesome, I'd love to remove that yoke from the neck of all the other non-casters!
- Monk and Rogue are already the weakest combat classes; their BAB is too low to get much benefit out of this, so they'd only fall further behind the other full BABs for combat power.
So overall I'm opposed, though not by much. Mostly due to point #4. If rogue/ninja and monk got full BAB as well, I'd be all for it.
Monks get feats based off of Flurry of Blows (Aka, full BAB progression).
Rogues get 5 more talents in their progression with the allowance that they can choose the combat feat talent more than once.
How does that sound?
Also, I don't think this obsoletes Fighters. They'd still be the best armor wearing class, and they'd still have the fighter exclusive feats as well as 10 more feats than other martial classes. I don't think it's a big deal.
And as I mentioned above, I'm less worried about power and more worried about Variety. Every "optimal" melee build I've tried has turned into a one or two trick pony thanks to the limitations of feats.
|
It would help a lot for all the classes, and I believe it would drastically increase combat power. Rocket tag would start around level 5 or 6 I believe. Direct fights would start favoring non-casters as they can afford a lot of feats to up their saves plus Step Up would be taken by a lot of characters. Combat Casting helps, but it doesn't make up for rising DCs and needing to cast defensively far more than before.
Logically speaking in game thinking, casters wouldn't get into direct confrontations at all if possible, much less than before. Adventuring for casters become even more dangerous.
This would not change tier-ing too much however since non-casters still can't teleport, fly, summon, etc. But it would drastically change combat, especially for casters.
It would also slow down the game even more because there are so many more feats than before, so players would have to check their feats more often.
|
|
I forgot this would hurt 1/2 BAB classes since they would get their feats one level later for all of them except for level 1.
There's definitely extra feats I'd want for any character if I can afford them. All the saving throw boosting ones, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Alertness, Skill Focus - perception, a few of the teamwork feats like Shake It Off, Outflank, Precise Strike, some of the more useful feats that gets cut due to lack of feats like Mobility, Combat Reflexes tree, Combat Expertise tree, Dazzling Display.
So many...
This is pretty much what Fighters get. They get a feat EVERY level. It's pretty much their main class ability. The other martial classes should not be getting this.As in, whenever you get another BAB point, you get a feat.
Every class would still get one feat at level 1.
But do you think this would help the more martial classes keep up with the casters?
From the reading, I think he meant that the fighters would still get their bonus feats.
No amount of feats will compromise for the power of high level spells.The biggest complaint I have about Martial Classes though isn't their power at high levels, it's that they have to wait for power at low levels.
Take the Dimensional Agility line for instance. Sounds really cool, but you're not going to see it blossom with Dimensional Savant until level 14ish (I think.) In the meantime the Wizard has Black Tentacles at level 7.
In fact, spells give a feeling of incremental upgrading in a way that feats and other class features seemingly do not.
I'm not asking for more power with feats, just variety. Why does my fighter have to be ONLY good at Tripping and Disarming if that's what I spend my feats on? Why can't I get better at the other Combat Maneuvers?
I have felt this way with regards to a fighter's ability to use multiple weapons. It does seem that this is being addressed in the paizo blog, but it still requires using extra feats.
I think that a lot of people are forgetting some simple things.
The other martial classes may not have as many feats to spend as a fighter, but they also get free feats without even needing the prerequisites.
Those same classes also get spells, class abilities, more skills and their bonuses apply to any weapon they use.
From the reading, I think he meant that the fighters would still get their bonus feats.This is pretty much what Fighters get. They get a feat EVERY level. It's pretty much their main class ability. The other martial classes should not be getting this.As in, whenever you get another BAB point, you get a feat.
Every class would still get one feat at level 1.
But do you think this would help the more martial classes keep up with the casters?
That's what i gathered as well.
Another thing that should be addressed is the critical focus feat.
I believe, yes this is an opinion, that a fighter should get critical focus for free at level 9 as part of their natural progression.
A fighter confirms crits automaticly at level 20 anyway, why require the feat to use other crit feats at level 20?
Wow, did i hop onto the high horse here.
The more i look at the fighter class, the more it seems broken.
This change would also actually buff the 3/4 powerhouse casters, especially Cleric, Druid, and Summoner. They would gain more feats than before, and unlike mundanes, their metamagic and other spell-related feats are actually GOOD. They'd have less than a full BAB class, but the quality outstrips the quantity. I'd take more of Spell Perfection, Dazing Spell, Bouncing Spell, Divine Interference, Augment Summoning, Selective Spell, Quicken Spell, etc... over a lot more of weapon focus, specialization, Improved trip, Dazzling Display, etc... Any day of the week. No contest.
If you made the most powerful casters (wizard, sorc, cleric, witch, druid, oracle, and summoner - magus, bard, alchemist, and inquisitor are all a noticeable step down in power from these and should be left nerf-free) all 1/2 BAB, this problem would obviously go away. Otherwise, this change is also buffing some of the most powerful classes in the game, and to a greater degree than it is helping the intended targets, just because their feats are SO MUCH better, even if they're not getting as many more of them.
This change would also actually buff the 3/4 powerhouse casters, especially Cleric, Druid, and Summoner. They would gain more feats than before, and unlike mundanes, their metamagic and other spell-related feats are actually GOOD. They'd have less than a full BAB class, but the quality outstrips the quantity. I'd take more of Spell Perfection, Dazing Spell, Bouncing Spell, Divine Interference, Augment Summoning, Selective Spell, Quicken Spell, etc... over a lot more of weapon focus, specialization, Improved trip, Dazzling Display, etc... Any day of the week. No contest.
If you made the most powerful casters (wizard, sorc, cleric, witch, druid, oracle, and summoner - magus, bard, alchemist, and inquisitor are all a noticeable step down in power from these and should be left nerf-free) all 1/2 BAB, this problem would obviously go away. Otherwise, this change is also buffing some of the most powerful classes in the game, and to a greater degree than it is helping the intended targets, just because their feats are SO MUCH better, even if they're not getting as many more of them.
Interestingly, the 1/2 BAB's get the same number of feats as before.
3/4th bab's (other than Monk) get 6 more than normal.full (if Monk counts Flurry's full) BAb get 10 more than normal.
What could do if implement this change only full BAB classes (including Monk to be kind), this would boost them. I'm not sure how much though, how many feats does a Monk need to equal a spellcaster.
As Gorbacz said, no amount of feats will make melee balanced with casters. They're just completely different power levels.
|
|
As I said before, it makes all of these classes more dangerous in actual fights and confrontations with each other. Casters definitely do not want to be in attack range (melee or ranged). All of these classes can afford Step Up, Improve Initiative, Toughmess, all the save boosters, and a few other ones. Those will all hurt casters. Non-casters can also get crafting feats to not rely on casters as much.
However, if there is no combat involved, then nothing changes. More feats doesn't affect fly, teleport, divination spells generally, contingency, polymorph, time stop, etc.
The game would change, probably for the worse. Because casters are almost a separate, isolated thing that does their own thing because in a fight, they are even softer than before. They would not adventure as often as before. They are still more powerful, but they would use more spells to prevent attacks on them.
As Gorbacz said, no amount of feats will make melee balanced with casters. They're just completely different power levels.
Now you're tempting me to test out a fighter with "learn ALL the feats!" versus a wizard. I doubt I could keep track of the modifiers and possible actions, though.
GUYS WHAT IF FIGHTERS COULD FLY
That would be a huge step in the right direction. I never understood why the spellcasters got all the ACTUAL good long duration buffs and not the noncasters that are supposed to be "good all day, baby!"
Hell, a level 10 Air specialist wizard has literal permanent 24/7 flight. Just...what the ****ing ****?!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That would be a huge step in the right direction.
ಠ_ಠ
And here it is, demonstrating my exact issues with Fighter!
People don't mind as much if the monk or ninja or hell even the barbarian or rogue get supernatural abilities to do stuff like make shadow clones or sunder a spell, or the like. But Fighters are expected to remain "realistic."
Which, when combined with the maxim that "Fighters have to be the best class at fighting" leads to the existence of the Fighter as a class becoming an oppressive yoke around classes with actual flavorful and interesting abilities from ever becoming anywhere near balanced with spellcasters, who unlike them are NOT expected to be comparable to the fighter.
The Fighter class is the glass ceiling of D&D. It needs to be smashed.
And here it is, demonstrating my exact issues with Fighter!
People don't mind as much if the monk or ninja or hell even the barbarian or rogue get supernatural abilities to do stuff like make shadow clones or sunder a spell, or the like. But Fighters are expected to remain "realistic."
Which, when combined with the maxim that "Fighters have to be the best class at fighting" leads to the existence of the Fighter as a class becoming an oppressive yoke around classes with actual flavorful and interesting abilities from ever becoming anywhere near balanced with spellcasters, who unlike them are NOT expected to be comparable to the fighter.
The Fighter class is the glass ceiling of D&D. It needs to be smashed.
Agreed agreed and oh so agreed.
Well, I guess we COULD do it the 4th edition way, where every class was basically the same thing except slightly different powers.
The fighter could stand to lose bravery and replace it with class specific exploits. barbarians, rogues and gunslingers have them. Exploits to pull them out of the most dire circumstances: knocked off a cliff, becoming charmed, buried under rubble, forced to fight a swarm of mirror images, etc.
But we could argue for years on what those exploits would entail, what is magic vs mundane, and what is too powerful.
And here it is, demonstrating my exact issues with Fighter!
People don't mind as much if the monk or ninja or hell even the barbarian or rogue get supernatural abilities to do stuff like make shadow clones or sunder a spell, or the like. But Fighters are expected to remain "realistic."
Which, when combined with the maxim that "Fighters have to be the best class at fighting" leads to the existence of the Fighter as a class becoming an oppressive yoke around classes with actual flavorful and interesting abilities from ever becoming anywhere near balanced with spellcasters, who unlike them are NOT expected to be comparable to the fighter.
The Fighter class is the glass ceiling of D&D. It needs to be smashed.
That's all well and good (pretty much true), but Fighter also exists to serve the niche of "I want to be bad-ass without being magical". That is a legitimate character archetype. There's really no way to make a non-magical flying fighter.
That's all well and good (pretty much true), but Fighter also exists to serve the niche of "I want to be bad-ass without being magical". That is a legitimate character archetype. There's really no way to make a non-magical flying fighter.
non-magical...flying...fighter...? How the hell would the fly without magic if they didn't have wings?
And here it is, demonstrating my exact issues with Fighter!
People don't mind as much if the monk or ninja or hell even the barbarian or rogue get supernatural abilities to do stuff like make shadow clones or sunder a spell, or the like. But Fighters are expected to remain "realistic."
Which, when combined with the maxim that "Fighters have to be the best class at fighting" leads to the existence of the Fighter as a class becoming an oppressive yoke around classes with actual flavorful and interesting abilities from ever becoming anywhere near balanced with spellcasters, who unlike them are NOT expected to be comparable to the fighter.
The Fighter class is the glass ceiling of D&D. It needs to be smashed.
I don't have a problem with fighters getting an upgrade, even an extraordinary one. Flying just seems against the theme, not overpowered or anything.
But if you have such problems with Fighter, make a new archetype or class replacement that works for you.
That's all well and good (pretty much true), but Fighter also exists to serve the niche of "I want to be bad-ass without being magical". That is a legitimate character archetype. There's really no way to make a non-magical flying fighter.non-magical...flying...fighter...? How the hell would the fly without magic if they didn't have wings?
Oh! Oh! I got this one!
Instead of feathers, the wings are made of SWORDS!
That's all well and good (pretty much true), but Fighter also exists to serve the niche of "I want to be bad-ass without being magical". That is a legitimate character archetype. There's really no way to make a non-magical flying fighter.non-magical...flying...fighter...? How the hell would the fly without magic if they didn't have wings?
He didn't say the Figghter can't grow wings. :)
Yar!
I'd rather the Fighter be able to just say 'screw gravity'.
~P
That's all well and good (pretty much true), but Fighter also exists to serve the niche of "I want to be bad-ass without being magical". That is a legitimate character archetype. There's really no way to make a non-magical flying fighter.non-magical...flying...fighter...? How the hell would the fly without magic if they didn't have wings?
I can see Fighter's getting to use magic like effects through sheer determination and being badass. High or max level fighter knows how to throw his sword so it always comes back with no magic involved, slash the air to hit someone 30 feet away, and cut a literal hole in reality and come out 100 feet away or in another plane, etc.
That's all well and good (pretty much true), but Fighter also exists to serve the niche of "I want to be bad-ass without being magical". That is a legitimate character archetype. There's really no way to make a non-magical flying fighter.non-magical...flying...fighter...? How the hell would the fly without magic if they didn't have wings?
Cheapy, you are agreeing with me. StreamOfTheSky wanted flying, wuxia fighters. She wanted to "smash" the ceiling of the current fighter. I countered that there needs to remain a completely mundane fighter to fill a niche/archetype. Hence:
"They (devs) won't let non-casters have nice things like flying".
"Uh, if they start flying, they're using some sort of magic and can't be considered non-casters".
That's the point I was trying to make.
Mundane characters are mechanically obsolete by around 6th level. Read up on the "quartiles of D&D" stuff for 3E. By ~level 6, PCs have powers that are plainly beyond real life human capability. If the noncasters are still held to those standard past that point, they are doomed to fal far behind and be obsoleted by the casters.
Don't call it flight if it bothers you. Treat it as super high jumping combined with channelling inner ki to gracefully float back to the ground at as slow or fast a pace as you wish, changing the pace of desecent or even halting it completely to hang in midair for a combo attack, as you see fit. It ends up working close enough to real flight (n tactical situations) without actually being full-out "flight."
But for gods' sakes, give them something!
Mundane characters are mechanically obsolete by around 6th level. Read up on the "quartiles of D&D" stuff for 3E. By ~level 6, PCs have powers that are plainly beyond real life human capability. If the noncasters are still held to those standard past that point, they are doomed to fal far behind and be obsoleted by the casters.
Don't call it flight if it bothers you. Treat it as super high jumping combined with channelling inner ki to gracefully float back to the ground at as slow or fast a pace as you wish, changing the pace of desecent or even halting it completely to hang in midair for a combo attack, as you see fit. It ends up working close enough to real flight (n tactical situations) without actually being full-out "flight."
But for gods' sakes, give them something!
Why not just re-skin/re-fluff the magus, inqusitor, synthesist, alchemist, or bard to get the same effect? I understand the mechanical arguments about the martial-caster disparity, but you're describing a different genre of fantasy. That's more anime than Tolkien*. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just a different set of expectations.
*Yes I understand that high level martial characters have abilities outside the realm of reality or Tolkien fantasy, I've read the wonderful essays on the subject.
I got to thinking a bit about this because i have been exploring some of the options for an archer.
When you think about it, the ranger gets 5 feats as a normal part of his level progression.
He also does not need to have any prerequisites to qualify for these feats.
Say a fighter was to get weapon focus/greater weapon focus and weapon specialization/greater weapon specialization. This will give him a +2 to hit and +4 to damage. Add this to his weapon training and gloves of dueling and you get a total, at 20th level, of +8 to hit and +10 to damage with one weapon.
This costs him 4 feats total.
The ranger's favored enemy bonus will give him a +10 to hit and +10 to damage. Combine this with instant enemy and you have a greater bonus vrs one (Only one enemy, but still) enemy type that is not a normal enemy. This bonus applies to any and all weapons that the ranger uses, not just one.
So, the fighter effectively has the armor training, heavy armor training, armor mastery and weapon mastery vrs. the ranger's increased skills, evasion animal companion, spells and a whole slew of other things.
Also the arguement that the fighter can just start with increased Int to take skills like UMD and Perception also applies to any class, only, any other class starts with more skill points per level.
The fighter just needs a lot of love.
I want a non-magical fighter, I truly do, but just adding more feats and not removing prerequisites or changing the way feats apply to a fighter will just leave the fighter gimped.
If the fighter had added effects or scaling feats, then i could see this meaning something.
To bad more feats do not scale the same way power attack and deadly aim do.
Sry if it seems i am derailing this thread.
i am merely attempting to add that extra feats will not help unless they apply differently to each martial class.