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For the purposes of using the harpoon's grapple ability, is its reach considered 5 feet (its true melee reach) or 50 feet (the length of the trailing rope)?
It seems to me the intent is that you could hurl the harpoon at someone, and with a crit, have some limited control over them from a distance, but RAW seems to indicate I could only grapple them with it while adjacent.
If it's the latter, what is the point of having a 50-foot length of rope attached to it at all?
Hm, interesting. RAW, you can't grapple with the harpoon past 10'. RAI, they probably did mean for you to have some limited level of grappling capability. That's sorta how it works against, y'know, whales and stuff. Or dragons, I imagine.
So basically, RAW screwed over RAI again on this one. Le sigh.
A ship attempting to harpoon a dragon - now there's an image. "I thought you said there weren't any airships in this campaign!"
I would rule that, in the case of the harpoon, the weapon's reach is the length of the 50 foot rope. I do agree that RAW limits it to melee reach, though.
So wait...
A harpoon is a weapon designed to stick into whales so we're going to use them as an example of how bad these weapons suck.
Whales have enormous CMDs and don't actually surface very often.
So, when a boat manages to find a whale, if the sailors hit it they have a 5% chance to get a free grapple against a creature that they do not have a prayer of actually grappling.
Do I have this right? Someone please tell me I'm misunderstanding how this weapon works.
Also: how?
This alias uses one in a Razor Coast PbP but I still don't fully understand how.
So I throw the harpoon in one hand, and hold the rope with the other.
Say I hit.
Can the stuck creature wrench the rope out of my hand? Cut the rope? How fast can I reel them in?
Grappling Weapon Quality: On a successful critical hit with a weapon of this type, you can attempt a combat maneuver check to grapple your opponent as a free action. This grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you are attempting to grapple if that creature is not threatening you. While you grapple the creature using a grappling weapon, you can only move or damage the creature on your turn. You are still considered grappled, though you do not have to be adjacent to the creature to continue the grapple. If you move far enough away that the creature you're grappling is no longer within the weapon's reach, you end the grapple with that action.
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
So again, let's take whales, with a sailor trying to harpoon one from the deck of a ship.
The rules say that if the grapple is successful (the sailor is actually a 10th level Tetori monk, maybe?), the whale is instantly moved adjacent to the sailor (dragged up and out of the water?)
But, if the there is anything in the whale's way of being able to be next to the sailor the harpoon instantly disconnects itself.
If you throw it, then there is no reach, it is a thrown weapon with range increments, not a reach.
So there is no valid reach to exceed in that case. To say otherwise seems like it leads to Bow-shot Arrows being able to use melee-specific qualities hinging on Reach, since of course Arrows CAN be used as Improvised Melee Weapons. That's silly, becaue if you DON'T use it as a melee weapon with reach, then it isn't a melee weapon with reach for that particular attack.
Of course, that still leaves no technical limitation on distance e.g. the 50' rope distance.
I would also say there is some questions on how the CMB check is done,
other cases of ranged maneuvers don't say anything at all about changing CMB to use DEX instead of STR
but many people seem to think that is justified (e.g. Archer Fighter Ranged Maneuvers). If so, would that still apply here?
Relatedly, since the Grapple is from a Ranged Attack subject to Range Increments (if thrown),
would the Grapple check also be subject to Range Increment penalties?
And of course, the one everybody is dying to know, is it really required to throw a Harpoon with 2 Hands, as per it's weapon type?
I really wish we could get an errata/FAQ entry on how these are supposed to work.
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I so want to play a harpooner in a Skull and Shackles game, but honestly this weapon is filled with too many issues and questions.
First, you have to have a critical hit, with a critical 20 weapon I might add, to even be able to do the grapple attempt. Then there is just too much confusion to even know if it can be done at range.
As it is, I would say that yes, you can use the grapple ability at range, using the rope to maintain control. The creature may attempt to sunder the rope or escape from the harpoon by succeeding at a grapple attempt.
Would they be able to use Escape Artist to get out of it?
can a harpoon be used and then the remaining rope be used as a whip via Equipment trick to whip the grappled foe? If so I'm making that happen
Just click the FAQ button at the top. Maybe we can get a developer response.
This came up in my home game this past weekend. We house-ruled the harpoon to work like Hamatula Strike. It worked well enough, but still made me wish for an errata or developer response on the Harpoon issue.
Has there been anything new on the subject over the last year?
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Why don't we as group make a mod for the Harpoon and humbly submit it to Paizo to at least think about using as inspiration?
I just don't see how having a basic and iconic weapon that seems to plainly not work as intended is useful for the game as a whole.
And I wanted to FAQ this but then realized I already had.
Of course it is mostly a moot point since you only get the grapple check on a crit.
A simple version would be to just use the Net/Lasso mechanics. Tying a harpoon's functionality to CMB in any way is a terrible idea (see: whales). The Lasso mechanics make use of the Entangled condition to essentially do what a Harpoon should do. Seems like an easy fix.
Something like-
Harpoon: one handed, simple weapon
1d6 dmg, x2 crit, piercing, 10' range increment
Special: Harpoons have a length of rope attached to them that allows an attacker to leave the weapon lodged in a target and attempt to control or drag them. A harpoon is a one-handed weapon, but in order to properly employ a harpoon's rope, the weirder must have a free hand as well.When a harpoon successfully deals damage to a target, that target is Entangled. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell.
An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The harpoon's rope has 2 hit points and and AC of 10. It can be burst with a DC 23 Strength check (also a full-round action).
If a harpoon misses it can be reeled back in by the rope as a full round action.
Of course it is mostly a moot point since you only get the grapple check on a crit.Not with hamatula strike, I think.
With hamatula strike anything you can stab with becomes a harpoon. No real reason for a special weapon.
(the best hamatula strike weapon is a Large sized Flying Talon, btw.)
How so?
If it's the latter, what is the point of having a 50-foot length of rope attached to it at all?
There is an Npc in skulls and shackles who uses the harpoon line toed off to terrain, the way it is written it assumes the victim will be tied to said point if grappled.
There is an Npc in skulls and shackles who uses the harpoon line toed off to terrain, the way it is written it assumes the victim will be tied to said point if grappled.If it's the latter, what is the point of having a 50-foot length of rope attached to it at all?
The way the grapple rules are written, if an enemy is successfully grappled at range they get immediately yanked adjacent to the grappler, so it doesn't matter what the rope is tied off too.
Entangle doesn't have that problem, which is why it seems like a better mechanic to use.