Is there a Druid equivalent for Feral Speech?

[Mighty Squash]

Wizards can get Feral Speech with a feat equivalent and Witches with a hex (which I guess is also a feat equivalent), but I'm failing to see any way that Druids can get it. The closest I can see is the much more limited Wild Speech which can only talk to the kind of animal you are currently wild shaped in to and for a limited amount of time per day.
Fluff wise, Feral Speech seems far more of a Druid power, so what am I missing? Or is it just that Wizards and Witches can choose to have basically unlimited speak with animals and Druids can't?
It just seems a bit dumb that Druids are getting the short end of teh stick on a power that seems innately Druid-y.

Feral Speech:

prd wrote:

Feral Speech (Su): You gain the ability to speak with and understand the response of any animal as if using speak with animals, though each time you speak to animals, you must decide to communicate with either amphibians, birds, fish, mammals, or reptiles, and can only speak to and understand animals of that type. You can make yourself understood as far as your voice carries. This discovery does not predispose any animal addressed toward you in any way. When you reach 12th level, you can also use this ability to communicate with vermin. You must be at least a 5th-level wizard to select this discovery.

Source

Wild Speech:

prd wrote:

Wild Speech

You speak with the tongue of men and beasts.

Prerequisites: Druid level 6th, wild shape class feature.

Benefit: When using wild shape to take the form in which you cannot speak (such as an animal), you are able to speak normally in any language you know. This allows you to cast spells with verbal components, speak command words, and activate spell completion and spell trigger items. However, it does not give you the ability to cast spells requiring somatic components unless you also have the Natural Spell feat, or cast spells with material components merged into your form.
When using wild shape to take the form of an animal, you may use speak with animals to communicate with animals of your assumed form. This is a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your druid level, and you may use it for a number of minutes per day equal to your druid level. These minutes do not have to be consecutive, but must be used in one-minute increments.
Source

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

DM's I've asked have always let me take it as a druid. It's quintencential.

[Cheapy]

Druid level minutes per day should be plenty to talk to them. Their animals, there'll be no profound insight from talking to them for hours.

[Mighty Squash]

Cheapy, you do make a good point. But it still means that if the Druid wants to chat to an animal it has to turn in to it first which can be a bit of a bother, and waste of good wild shape. The wizard is investing the same amount and getting a much more useful and Druid-seeming ability out of it.

[Benly]

A druid in animal form can always "communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form" without needing this feat, so there's that.

That said, I don't see any harm in houseruling a druid to be able to take Feral Speech, since it's basically a situational bonus of "you don't have to blow a Wild Shape use to ask a dog if anyone's passed by lately".

[Foghammer]

Huh... I never thought about this. Druids SHOULD have access to something like this. It's super-strange that they don't.

Tiny Coffee Golem, I think the word you were looking for was "quintessential?"

[blahpers]

Amusingly, the animal speaker bard archetype can do this at will for chosen animal types. *shakes fist*

[Deidre Tiriel]

Your fix is in the core rulebook: the 1st level spell Speak with Animals. done. no wasting of a feat or wild shape.

[Mighty Squash]

Deidre Tiriel wrote:

Your fix is in the core rulebook: the 1st level spell Speak with Animals. done. no wasting of a feat or wild shape.

Which eats a spell, to do something other less animal focused classes can do at will for a feat. Depending on your build the feat slot may be the better way of doing it for some. I mean, that spell slot could have been shillelagh.

[BigNorseWolf]

The problem is that the witch can have an hour long conversation with the dog, even with the spell the druid only gets a few minutes.

[LazarX]

Mighty Squash wrote:

Deidre Tiriel wrote:

Your fix is in the core rulebook: the 1st level spell Speak with Animals. done. no wasting of a feat or wild shape.

Which eats a spell, to do something other less animal focused classes can do at will for a feat. Depending on your build the feat slot may be the better way of doing it for some. I mean, that spell slot could have been shillelagh.

Druids aren't as animal focused as shaman who get the ability to do so at will with their totem. So the use of a spell is not a big sacrifice for what is at best an occasional utility.

[Foghammer]

Druids are more animal focused than wizards and bards, and the PF shaman is an archetype of the druid - and it still limited to a select number of animals.

[LazarX]

Foghammer wrote:

Druids are more animal focused than wizards and bards, and the PF shaman is an archetype of the druid - and it still limited to a select number of animals.

The Shaman is a Druid who is specifically animal specialized. They have a much greater focus on animals than the average Druid who is more broad in his nature focus.

[Mighty Squash]

Even the shaman archetypes are limited to a minute per level per day, and again only by burning the use of a limited polymorph ability.

[Foghammer]

I'll bite: shaman is more animal focused than the druid. But a wizard has next to 0 focus on nature, except where the elements and summoning a few creatures are concerned.

Making the argument for [animal] shaman vs druid when the wizard is getting something they should have as well is like making your two red-headed step-children fight over who has more freckles while the blonde one robs the cookie jar.

[LazarX]

Foghammer wrote:

I'll bite: shaman is more animal focused than the druid. But a wizard has next to 0 focus on nature, except where the elements and summoning a few creatures are concerned.

Making the argument for [animal] shaman vs druid when the wizard is getting something they should have as well is like making your two red-headed step-children fight over who has more freckles while the blonde one robs the cookie jar.

I fail to see where the wizard is getting animal speech at will as a class ability. Communicating with their familiar is strictly with their familiar. Just because a wizard can converse with his toad familiar doesn't mean he can talk to all toads and frogs.

[Cheapy]

LazarX wrote:

Foghammer wrote:

I'll bite: shaman is more animal focused than the druid. But a wizard has next to 0 focus on nature, except where the elements and summoning a few creatures are concerned.

Making the argument for [animal] shaman vs druid when the wizard is getting something they should have as well is like making your two red-headed step-children fight over who has more freckles while the blonde one robs the cookie jar.

I fail to see where the wizard is getting animal speech at will as a class ability. Communicating with their familiar is strictly with their familiar. Just because a wizard can converse with his toad familiar doesn't mean he can talk to all toads and frogs.

Check the OP's post. This is about the Feral Speech Arcane Discovery that wizards can select.

[Benly]

LazarX wrote:

I fail to see where the wizard is getting animal speech at will as a class ability. Communicating with their familiar is strictly with their familiar. Just because a wizard can converse with his toad familiar doesn't mean he can talk to all toads and frogs.

It's one of the Arcane Discoveries in Ultimate Magic, Feral Speech. A wizard of 5th level or higher can take it in place of a feat (either a regular feat pick or a wizard bonus feat) and gets at-will Speak With Animals which also adds vermin at higher levels. The full text is in the thread's first post under a spoiler tag.

[LazarX]

Benly wrote:

LazarX wrote:

I fail to see where the wizard is getting animal speech at will as a class ability. Communicating with their familiar is strictly with their familiar. Just because a wizard can converse with his toad familiar doesn't mean he can talk to all toads and frogs.

It's one of the Arcane Discoveries in Ultimate Magic, Feral Speech. A wizard of 5th level or higher can take it in place of a feat (either a regular feat pick or a wizard bonus feat) and gets at-will Speak With Animals which also adds vermin at higher levels. The full text is in the thread's first post under a spoiler tag.

It's not a class freebie, it's the price of a feat equivalent. Wizards however don't have the option of simply adding Speak To Animals as just another spell in a burgeoning book. If they don't take this discovery they don't have the ability at all.

[Benly]

LazarX wrote:

It's not a class freebie, it's the price of a feat equivalent. Wizards however don't have the option of simply adding Speak To Animals as just another spell in a burgeoning book. If they don't take this discovery they don't have the ability at all.

Did you read the first post?

The question is "why can wizards get at-will Speak With Animals as a feat equivalent and druids can't even though it's a more druid-feeling ability?" Nobody is saying druids can't cast the spell (at the cost of daily resources), the issue is that a wizard who drops a feat on it is better at talking with animals than a druid will ever be and the druid does not have the option of dropping a feat for the same benefit.

[LazarX]

Benly wrote:

LazarX wrote:

It's not a class freebie, it's the price of a feat equivalent. Wizards however don't have the option of simply adding Speak To Animals as just another spell in a burgeoning book. If they don't take this discovery they don't have the ability at all.

Did you read the first post?

The question is "why can wizards get at-will Speak With Animals as a feat equivalent and druids can't even though it's a more druid-feeling ability?" Nobody is saying druids can't cast the spell (at the cost of daily resources), the issue is that a wizard who drops a feat on it is better at talking with animals than a druid will ever be and the druid does not have the option of dropping a feat for the same benefit.

Because Druids were designed with the ability as a spell and Wizards were never designed around having it at all. It was bolted on as the most recent class change in the newer book, as opposed to adding "Speak To Animals" to the Wizard spell list. There really isn't a reason to have it as a feat purchasable item for Druids given that they already have multiple ways of speaking to animals.

And giving it as a new freebie would mean empowering the class more.

[Benly]

LazarX wrote:

Because Druids were designed with the ability as a spell and Wizards were never designed around having it at all. It was bolted on as the most recent class change in the newer book, as opposed to adding "Speak To Animals" to the Wizard spell list. There really isn't a reason to have it as a feat purchasable item for Druids given that they already have multiple ways of speaking to animals.

And giving it as a new freebie would mean empowering the class more.

The "reason to have it" would be so that by expending a feat they can use the ability without expending daily resources. It's a niche ability that tends to get pushed aside when deciding what spells to prepare but which is fun and useful to have when it's already on hand.

Basically, I see no reason for druids not to have access to it.

[LazarX]

Benly wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Because Druids were designed with the ability as a spell and Wizards were never designed around having it at all. It was bolted on as the most recent class change in the newer book, as opposed to adding "Speak To Animals" to the Wizard spell list. There really isn't a reason to have it as a feat purchasable item for Druids given that they already have multiple ways of speaking to animals.

And giving it as a new freebie would mean empowering the class more.

The "reason to have it" would be so that by expending a feat they can use the ability without expending daily resources. It's a niche ability that tends to get pushed aside when deciding what spells to prepare but which is fun and useful to have when it's already on hand.

Basically, I see no reason for druids not to have access to it.

If you are the DM, give it to them. But it's not very likely that you have a compelling argument to make Paizo revise Ultimate Magic, especially since Animal specialty Druids, ergo, shaman have been given that ability in regards to their totem animals.

[Benly]

LazarX wrote:

If you are the DM, give it to them. But it's not very likely that you have a compelling argument to make Paizo revise Ultimate Magic, especially since Animal specialty Druids, ergo, shaman have been given that ability in regards to their totem animals.

Again, are you actually reading the thread? Nobody is saying "PAIZO MUST REVISE ULTIMATE MAGIC NOW" - although if they release a future "Ultimate Wilderness" that throws as many shinies at druids as Ultimate Magic threw wizards, I wouldn't be surprised to see Feral Speech in it.

Someone asked if there was a way for druids to get it, the answer was "no, but there are some intermediate substitutes and yeah, it's kind of weird that they don't", and then you got weirdly aggressive about it.

[Foghammer]

It would have made more sense, LazarX, for wizards to be given Speak with Animals as a spell (an easy change with no repercussions), and for the discovery to be a feat that anyone with an appropriate caster level could take, like Feral Speech or something, and druids could take it at earlier levels, like a monk with the style feats.

[beej67]

I'm not a fan of 'fixes' that wallpaper useful spells.

The best and easiest fix, if you're house-ruling something, would be to simply lower Speak With Animals spell to Orison level on the Druid list.

[hogarth]

My druids have always memorized Speak with Animals (and/or bought some backup scrolls of it) and I've never had problem with that.

I'm not sure why wizards should get a feat that gives them free Speak with Animals; that seems a bit weird to me.

[Teemu]

I'm going to reincarnate this old thread just to say that this has driven me crazy for a long time as well. I'm glad that I'm not alone.

Has Paizo given any indication that they will release something like Ultimate Magic for Druids? I don't get the impression that they do such niche releases, for a specific class, anyway.

[Ms. Pleiades]

All these people be talking about wizards, and all I can think of is: "Wild Speech lets you use Spell Trigger Items? SCORE!"

[Cap. Darling]

Druids have a level 1 spell for this. I Think they are fine.

[Ascalaphus]

I think it's kind of a shame that druids don't get this. The ability to talk all day long with animals would be a neat option for druids.

[Symar]

My DM was willing to houserule the second portion of Wild Speech to be usable any time (since being only usable when wildshaped into that animal is pointless and redundant), but I wound up not taking the feat. There's been a total of one animal all campaign that I've had the time to speak to.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Symar wrote:

My DM was willing to houserule the second portion of Wild Speech to be usable any time (since being only usable when wildshaped into that animal is pointless and redundant), but I wound up not taking the feat. There's been a total of one animal all campaign that I've had the time to speak to.

It was your animal companion, wasn't it?

[LazarX]

Mighty Squash wrote:

Wizards can get Feral Speech with a feat equivalent and Witches with a hex (which I guess is also a feat equivalent), but I'm failing to see any way that Druids can get it. The closest I can see is the much more limited Wild Speech which can only talk to the kind of animal you are currently wild shaped in to and for a limited amount of time per day.

Fluff wise, Feral Speech seems far more of a Druid power, so what am I missing? Or is it just that Wizards and Witches can choose to have basically unlimited speak with animals and Druids can't?
It just seems a bit dumb that Druids are getting the short end of teh stick on a power that seems innately Druid-y.

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

...

Druids have the Speak With Animals spell. Then again, Druids don't NEED to speak with their animals, they KNOW them. They can handle their companions as a free action, and they have a bonus to wild empathy with any others. Totemic Druids can speak to the animls of their totem at will.

And on the practical sense, Feral Speech did not exist as a game mechanic until after the Druid was fully baked in as a character class.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Part of it could be mechanics too. If you can speak with animals at will, what's keeping you from constantly arguing with your GM that your animal companion should use an untrained trick without a push animal check because "You are literally telling him in his own language what to do."

[Ascalaphus]

What I'd like is a druid who's just constantly wandering the woods, talking with every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that he meets. The guy who has a scary understanding of the local terrain because he talks to all the animals and gets all their perspectives.

Sadly, wizards will be better at that.

[LazarX]

Ascalaphus wrote:

What I'd like is a druid who's just constantly wandering the woods, talking with every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that he meets. The guy who has a scary understanding of the local terrain because he talks to all the animals and gets all their perspectives.

Sadly, wizards will be better at that.

Or you wind up being Sylvester McCoy.

[Ascalaphus]

LazarX wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

What I'd like is a druid who's just constantly wandering the woods, talking with every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that he meets. The guy who has a scary understanding of the local terrain because he talks to all the animals and gets all their perspectives.

Sadly, wizards will be better at that.

Or you wind up being Sylvester McCoy.

That should totally be an option for druids.

[Symar]

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

It was your animal companion, wasn't it?

I actually took a domain instead, so it was an NPC's animal companion that we were around for a few days. And was a big cat. So I was in big cat form anyway half the time, and was talking to it anyway. Watching my DM roleplay the cat was probably the most fun character interaction this whole campaign, just the way this campaign has been structured and the things we're interacting with.

Ascalaphus wrote:

What I'd like is a druid who's just constantly wandering the woods, talking with every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that he meets. The guy who has a scary understanding of the local terrain because he talks to all the animals and gets all their perspectives.

Sadly, wizards will be better at that.

Radagast the Brown?

[Cap. Darling]

Ascalaphus wrote:

What I'd like is a druid who's just constantly wandering the woods, talking with every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that he meets. The guy who has a scary understanding of the local terrain because he talks to all the animals and gets all their perspectives.

Sadly, wizards will be better at that.

I am happy i dont have to sit next to you in a game where you insist on talking to every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that the party meets.

Most sensible folks would leave that guy in the Woods i Think.
What kind of secrets do you imagine you would get out of gophers?

[BigDTBone]

LazarX wrote:

Mighty Squash wrote:

Wizards can get Feral Speech with a feat equivalent and Witches with a hex (which I guess is also a feat equivalent), but I'm failing to see any way that Druids can get it. The closest I can see is the much more limited Wild Speech which can only talk to the kind of animal you are currently wild shaped in to and for a limited amount of time per day.

Fluff wise, Feral Speech seems far more of a Druid power, so what am I missing? Or is it just that Wizards and Witches can choose to have basically unlimited speak with animals and Druids can't?
It just seems a bit dumb that Druids are getting the short end of teh stick on a power that seems innately Druid-y.

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

...

Druids have the Speak With Animals spell. Then again, Druids don't NEED to speak with their animals, they KNOW them. They can handle their companions as a free action, and they have a bonus to wild empathy with any others. Totemic Druids can speak to the animls of their totem at will.

And on the practical sense, Feral Speech did not exist as a game mechanic until after the Druid was fully baked in as a character class.

Way to miss the point, twice.

Wow.

[BigDTBone]

Symar wrote:

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

It was your animal companion, wasn't it?

I actually took a domain instead, so it was an NPC's animal companion that we were around for a few days. And was a big cat. So I was in big cat form anyway half the time, and was talking to it anyway. Watching my DM roleplay the cat was probably the most fun character interaction this whole campaign, just the way this campaign has been structured and the things we're interacting with.

Ascalaphus wrote:

What I'd like is a druid who's just constantly wandering the woods, talking with every bird, squirrel, mole, gopher, deer, wolf, mouse, and so forth that he meets. The guy who has a scary understanding of the local terrain because he talks to all the animals and gets all their perspectives.

Sadly, wizards will be better at that.

Radagast the Brown?

Dude, Ace Ventura.